Rental deposit - refusal to return

[boonrawdcnx]

Could anybody here possible share experience or advise how to deal with a Thai landlord who is obviously trying to scam a friend out of his rental deposit of 30.000 Baht?

 

First problems started when my friend found out that his garbage was left outside the house and not collected. He also could not get a sensor key card for the electronic gate to the housing estate because the owner had never paid any maintenance fee to the estate in 4 years! My friend started paying and these problems where solved.

 

My friend rented the house from her for almost 2 years payed his rent on time and everything went more or less ok until of course the deposit was supposed to be returned after she scammed him out of another months rent and she simply refuses to return the deposit.

 

The house is in Chiang Mai and the owner lives in Bangkok. She did not even bother to show up when he moved out and had the house cleaned from top to toe and he send her pictures of the cleaned house expecting his deposit to be returned.

Almost a months after he moved out she sent somebody to get the keys and then complained that the joke that she calls a garden was in bad shape - of course because there was nobody living there for almost a month.

Nothing was broken by the tenant so I do not think she has a reason to refuse to return the deposit of 30.000 Baht.

 

What makes me angry is that she is a calculating lying bitch who annoyed him with constant phone calls that he would owe her another months rent when he told her he was moving out - as she told him she takes 3 months deposits from renters and the first rent and 2 months deposit he paid when he moved in was actually all deposit and he payed rent at the end of the months how ridiculous is that!

 

But I told him when she conned him out of another months rent by threatening to withhold the deposit she already had no intention of ever returning the deposit to him.

 

Does anybody have any advise what he could do to get his deposit back she obviously thinks this is over and she will just keep the money.

 

 

 

 

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[bert bloggs]

he has two hopes of getting it back ,and one is Bob .

we were so lucky when we rented our landlady was fantastic ,anything needed repair ,"do it and take it out of rent" got our deposit back straight away ,mind you we did eventually buy the place off her .????

[darksidedog]

Major problem in LOS. First house I had here landlady went over the place with a fine tooth comb, desperate to find a fault, and very grudgingly returned the deposit, when she couldn't. Second one complimented me on how clean the house was but just never returned the money. Even tried to gouge me for some more when the house was broken into 2 or 3 months later!

Experience has taught me to always ask to speak to the previous tenant, and walk away if the owner won't provide the details.

Your friend can get a lawyer involved, but this will cost more money, possibly more than the deposit itself, with no guarantee even if he wins a judgment at court that he will see the money.

I think your friend needs to write it off and chalk it up to experience, sad as I am to say it.

[worgeordie]

15 minutes ago, boonrawdcnx said:

He also could not get a sensor key card for the electronic gate to the housing estate because the owner had never paid any maintenance fee to the estate in 4 years!

That would have have a red light flashing for me,too late now

but he should just not have paid the last 2 months,making sure

all utility bills were paid and house left clean and in good condition,

with photographic evidence.

 

She knows it's going to cost your friend more to try and have the

money returned,so I suspect not the first time she has done this.

regards Worgeordie

[ezzra]

If she has a propar rental agreement whereby its stipulate she should get the deposit back if no damage is done to the property and she has given a notice to vacate as needed, than she should lodge a complaint with the police, as this is an outright scam... thai people doesn't like when police is involved, that might work for her...

[Worldplus]

You should have NOT paid your last month.. Let her chase you down....then left your deposit as your last months rent..

 

You lost 60K...Not 30K...  More fool you mate...

[BestB]

First option OCPB but might take some time.

 

Second option, I call it a dirty one, is to ask for copy of receipt for each month as he would be contacting revenue department to see if landlord has paid rental income tax .

 

Have used both options in the past, the mention of second option resulted in deposit being returned with some minor deductions pretty fast.

[BestB]

10 minutes ago, ezzra said:

If she has a propar rental agreement whereby its stipulate she should get the deposit back if no damage is done to the property and she has given a notice to vacate as needed, than she should lodge a complaint with the police, as this is an outright scam... thai people doesn't like when police is involved, that might work for her...

Police do not get involved in this kind of matters, even less interested when landlord in another city. 

 

Most police will do is make daily report and that is it

[smutcakes]

5 minutes ago, WhoGivesAFack said:

You should have NOT paid your last month.. Let her chase you down....then left your deposit as your last months rent..

 

You lost 60K...Not 30K...  More fool you mate...

Yeah fantastic advice, break your own lease agreement in advance in anticipation of something happening or not. That will stand you in good stead.

[stephenterry]

IMO, 30k is worth fighting for, even to show that he's not coerced into acceptance.

 

On the assumption that he retained a signed contract which stipulated the financial terms, my first stop in CM would be to visit the Mueang CM provincial police station - I have a contact Lt Col - who speaks good English, seems farang friendly, and is not inclined to accept any sweetener.

 

I understand that even BKK owners don't want to get involved with CM police, who could raise the issue of 'unpaid tax' on the rental income. That would be hassle for them, and a payback 'arrangement' could be obtained.  

 

I also know a CM lawyer, who is similar, and inexpensive - the cost of a letter to the owner might bring about a similar compromise.

 

Of course if he hasn't a contract or retained it - then wave bye-bye...

 

 

 

 

[Puchaiyank]

Your friends experience is not uncommon...

 

Can not wait for Thai apologist to come here with..."been here 20 years and never been scammed by a Thai"...????

[stephenterry]

4 minutes ago, BestB said:

Police do not get involved in this kind of matters, even less interested when landlord in another city. 

 

Most police will do is make daily report and that is it

That is not always the case. Depends on the whether an officer takes an interest or not - this is Thailand, as you well know. Once the report is written, ask for a copy and take to a lawyer.

[RichardColeman]

Had three Thai Landlords - two who paid back in full, one who kept all the 19,000 baht deposit. It truly is amazing what these scammers can find wrong with a house when you move out, even though they come to the house regularly and make no word of anything.

 

My advice is plan on getting Zero deposit back from any rental and you wont be disappointed !

 

 

[Smokegreynblues]

My friend got his rental returned when he filed a case in the small claims court. 

 

 

[BestB]

22 minutes ago, stephenterry said:

That is not always the case. Depends on the whether an officer takes an interest or not - this is Thailand, as you well know. Once the report is written, ask for a copy and take to a lawyer.

It is a civil matter and non return of rental deposit is not a police matter .

 

happy to be proven otherwise if you can provide one instance where police acted in same circumstances.

 

so you suggesting taking police report to a lawyer to start legal proceedings which will cost 150 000 to get back 30 000?

[Vacuum]

1 hour ago, boonrawdcnx said:

Does anybody have any advise what he could do to get his deposit back

At this point, no. Your friend should have withhold the rent 2 months before he checked out.

Edited July 9, 2019 by Vacuum

[BestB]

15 minutes ago, RichardColeman said:

Had three Thai Landlords - two who paid back in full, one who kept all the 19,000 baht deposit. It truly is amazing what these scammers can find wrong with a house when you move out, even though they come to the house regularly and make no word of anything.

 

My advice is plan on getting Zero deposit back from any rental and you wont be disappointed !

 

 

I had Italian landlord wanting to charge to repaint the place after I lived there for 4 years. A Scottish landlord who wanted full price of a new mattress after I had lived there for 9 years .

 

it is not a solely Thai thing but plenty of foreigners doing the same crap

[stephenterry]

2 minutes ago, BestB said:

It is a civil matter and non return of rental deposit is not a police matter .

 

happy to be proven otherwise if you can provide one instance where police acted in same circumstances.

 

so you suggesting taking police report to a lawyer to start legal proceedings which will cost 150 000 to get back 30 000?

If a 'crime' has been committed, e.g. tax evasion, it's not a civil matter. And the cost quoted above needs to be substantiated as factual.

 

I have stated my opinion, and you, yours. I'm not interested in prolonging this discussion with you, sorry. Let's leave it at that, and for the OP to discuss with his friend.  

[BestB]

7 minutes ago, stephenterry said:

If a 'crime' has been committed, e.g. tax evasion, it's not a civil matter. And the cost quoted above needs to be substantiated as factual.

 

I have stated my opinion, and you, yours. I'm not interested in prolonging this discussion with you, sorry. Let's leave it at that, and for the OP to discuss with his friend.  

So in other words you do not have a clue at All.

 

tax evasion is also not a police matter but revenue department matter and individual can not file tax evasion charges on their own.

 

police have no authority or access to revenue department records to

investigate or take any actions.

[Berkshire]

19 minutes ago, BestB said:

I had Italian landlord wanting to charge to repaint the place after I lived there for 4 years. A Scottish landlord who wanted full price of a new mattress after I had lived there for 9 years .

 

it is not a solely Thai thing but plenty of foreigners doing the same crap

Agree.  Landlords of all stripes seem to think that the deposit is now their money.  And if they have to pay it back, they're paying money out of their own pocket!  

 

Expats in Thailand often say "rent, don't buy."  Well this is clearly one of the big disadvantages of renting.   

[VocalNeal]

Hmm. Don't pay the last month's rent and tell the landlord to take the rent out of the deposit? 

[ThomasThBKK]

32 minutes ago, BestB said:

It is a civil matter and non return of rental deposit is not a police matter .

 

happy to be proven otherwise if you can provide one instance where police acted in same circumstances.

 

so you suggesting taking police report to a lawyer to start legal proceedings which will cost 150 000 to get back 30 000?

It's a civil matter yes, but starting legal proceedings doesn't cost 150 000 THB, if you used a lawyer before he might just write a nice letter for free which is enough in 90% of cases.

 

Just don't be a submissive <deleted>, assert dominance ????

[smutcakes]

20 minutes ago, Berkshire said:

Agree.  Landlords of all stripes seem to think that the deposit is now their money.  And if they have to pay it back, they're paying money out of their own pocket!  

 

Expats in Thailand often say "rent, don't buy."  Well this is clearly one of the big disadvantages of renting.   

Yet we have multiple people on this subject alone encouraging the tenant to break his lease agreement before the landlord has even done anything wrong by withholding the last 2 months rent. On the 1st page of the Real Estate topics we have another subject of a tenant who wants to leave his tenancy early planning to just walk out..... an act which he had various persons supporting.

 

Its not just landlords who are <deleted>, there are many <deleted> tenants as well especially in Pattaya.

[BestB]

13 minutes ago, ThomasThBKK said:

It's a civil matter yes, but starting legal proceedings doesn't cost 150 000 THB, if you used a lawyer before he might just write a nice letter for free which is enough in 90% of cases.

 

Just don't be a submissive <deleted>, assert dominance ????

A nice letter is 3000 baht . A follow up letter is another 3000 baht. Going to court is 150 000 , if you ever been to court you would know how fast billing hours adds up

 

and lawyers do not write anything for free

Edited July 9, 2019 by BestB

[scorecard]

44 minutes ago, RichardColeman said:

Had three Thai Landlords - two who paid back in full, one who kept all the 19,000 baht deposit. It truly is amazing what these scammers can find wrong with a house when you move out, even though they come to the house regularly and make no word of anything.

 

My advice is plan on getting Zero deposit back from any rental and you wont be disappointed !

 

 

How true, and it works both ways; I had a English engineer and his English wife rent my luxury house on Jomtien beach, with proper 1 year rental contract. There was a very small crack close the one corner of one tile in the swimming pool, in a place where it was not causing danger and most people wouldn't notice it. 

 

I pointed it out when they came to view the property and I mentioned (ensuring they were listening and I recorded it) that I had no plan to drain the pool and get it fixed, and if rented the property came with this small fault. The couple both responded that it wasn't a problem.

 

Three months after they moved in they said they wanted to move out because I had not fixed the small crack in 1 tile (I discovered quickly the wife wanted to move to another nearby village to an empty house next door to her UK lady friend). And they wanted full refund of the 2 months deposit. I said no, they sent a letter from a lawyer. 

 

The manager of my village contacted a senior police officer he knew. I also contacted their farang engineer's employer (an oil giant, they were providing the funds for the rental) and asked if they could help. Initial response was 'you should refund their deposit'. But a few days later the oil company manager called back and said 'don't refund their deposit'. Why, he had discovered that on several previous postings the couple had done similar things before in other countries and overall they were a nightmare for several other reasons (abuse of maids and divers and more).

 

The senior cop (good English, he lived nearby) agreed to go with me and the village manager to speak to the tenants' wife (the engineer husband didn't want to get involved). The cop told the lady she was wrong in the law and there would be no refund of deposit.

 

I got another letter from their lawyer, cop agreed to call the lawyer. They never contacted me again, my Thais adult son stayed at the house all day on the day they moved out, and changed the locks the same day.

 

 

 

[PerkinsCuthbert]

1 hour ago, BestB said:

First option OCPB but might take some time.

 

Second option, I call it a dirty one, is to ask for copy of receipt for each month as he would be contacting revenue department to see if landlord has paid rental income tax .

 

Have used both options in the past, the mention of second option resulted in deposit being returned with some minor deductions pretty fast.

I agree, forget about any police involvement, they'll likely take the bribe and do nothing. Much better to go the tax route, but make the first approach to the landlady an implicit threat - by saying that, for your own purposes you must contact the tax authorities to give them the details of the rental cost, for example. See if that shifts the b*tch's ass.

[ThomasThBKK]

 

9 minutes ago, BestB said:

A nice letter is 3000 baht . A follow up letter is another 3000 baht. Going to court is 150 000 , if you ever been to court you would know how fast billing hours adds up

 

and lawyers do not write anything for free

No it's not, Thailand has a small claims court and if you have a long term used lawyer and he's not a dick he will help you for free in such miniscule cases.

 

The admission fee is 100 THB there and each additional evidence page costs 50 THB.

[BestB]

13 minutes ago, ThomasThBKK said:

 

No it's not, Thailand has a small claims court and if you have a long term used lawyer and he's not a dick he will help you for free in such miniscule cases.

 

The admission fee is 100 THB there and each additional evidence page costs 50 THB.

Yes if you have a lawyer on retainer he might. Small claims court requires Thai language both spoken and submission and unless one speaks , writes and reads fluent English one would need a lawyer and lawyers do not work for free irrespective what you like to believe 

[boonrawdcnx]

Your friends experience is not uncommon...
 
Can not wait for Thai apologist to come here with..."been here 20 years and never been scammed by a Thai"...[emoji23]

Funny thing is my friend who is being scammed by this woman is Thai. He has a proper rental agreement and is working hard for a living.
That horrible woman is just using his good nature to rip him off.
30.000 Baht is a lot of money for him and I told him not to let it go. In the meantime I heard about the consumer protection office might be able to help.


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[Kwasaki]

3 hours ago, boonrawdcnx said:

What makes me angry is that she is a calculating lying bitch who annoyed him with constant phone calls that he would owe her another months rent when he told her he was moving out - as she told him she takes 3 months deposits from renters and the first rent and 2 months deposit he paid when he moved in was actually all deposit and he payed rent at the end of the months how ridiculous is that!

What she has done is against renting agreements set out by Thai gov but whether he can do anything now after leaving already is doubtful.

You mate was too easy going and should not of paid up in the first place.

Best he just treat as a lesson learnt, she could just duck & dive for years.