Should I continue health insurance or gamble?

[vukovar77]

You work for insurance company?

[murraynz]

22 hours ago, pookondee said:

Keeping the insurance is still a gamble in itself.. the gamble whether they will actually pay up if you make a claim and not pull some BS clause in the fine print to get out of it.

 

Also just because you are covered now, it doesnt mean they will not cut you off at a certain age.

AND if they dont cut you off, the premiums will skyrocket as risk gets higher..no consideraion of the fortune youve already paid them!

 

Either way they win, which is of course how it works, otherwise they wouldnt be in business, and making their directors rich.

 

Complete SCAM if you ask me.

If you have always had reasonable health, chances are you will pay in an absolute fortune and get absolutely nothing in return.

some have said its a gamble without insurance, i agree, but as above -its also a major gamble as to whether or not they will actualy pay out if a claim is made.. and what the insurance company may do with premiums once they have hooked a new client..

its particuarly risky for over seventy year olds--its soo easy for the insurance company to dream uo a way 'not to pay out' on a claim...beware....

[BestB]

9 minutes ago, murraynz said:

some have said its a gamble without insurance, i agree, but as above -its also a major gamble as to whether or not they will actualy pay out if a claim is made.. and what the insurance company may do with premiums once they have hooked a new client..

its particuarly risky for over seventy year olds--its soo easy for the insurance company to dream uo a way 'not to pay out' on a claim...beware....

If you go with a reputable international company and international plan they are governed by either EU or US laws and if policy has no cut off age, they will not be cutting you off or doing any of the sorts.

 

same goes for claims , if it’s a genuine claim ie not a pre condition not mentioned they pay out with no problems 

 

 

[ChrisKC]

You answered your own question - you had to claim! Next time, who knows how much?

Wearing your safety belt or your crash helmet (insurance) isn't needed if you never have an accident.

[simon43]

2 hours ago, thailand49 said:

Interesting?  what policy are you covering and by who?

Saltire mentioned that he is covered by HealthCare International.  I was previously covered under their policy.  Never had to make a claim.  I recently changed to a $1.2M policy from DavidShield.  The only reason for the change was because DavidShield has a zero dollar excess, whereas my previous policy has a $2,000 excess.

 

My premium increased when I changed policies, due to the zero $ excess.  I pay about 4,500 baht a month.  I'm 60 years old.

[simon43]

46 minutes ago, BestB said:

Sadly not much reviews or positive about this company . Not saying it’s not good , just saying not much feedback 

That's because they only recently opened up their insurance policy to people living worldwide.  They are an Israeli company and previously only provided national policies, not international.

[Pedrogaz]

I think it depends on whether you can afford to self insure. I am fortunate to have enough money that I could easily cope with, say, a 2 or 3 million baht medical bill. 

 

I would say ditch the insurance, if you can afford to pay the I million out and still get by financially. 

 

Insurance companies are in the market to make lots and lots of profits...this means net, net, on average, every punter or insured loses. This is like the bank in a casino, on average, it always takes in more than it pays out.

 

But you can always be a very lucky or unlucky punter, that is someone way outside the average. 

 

You have been here, you say, 10 years....you have paid 400K in premium and received back 100K so the insurance company is winning by 300,000 baht. Had you saved the 300K baht you would be in a stronger financial situation now. The other fact is that Thai doctors are not very good and private hospitals keep you in to run up charges when you would be as well off at home. For me hospital is the very last resort as are operations, dentistry and so on.

I may be a bit of a crank or a crack pot...time will tell. 

[The Fugitive]

On 7/17/2019 at 7:04 PM, Sheryl said:

You'd be out of your mind to drop insurance.

 

That you did not need to use it in the past has nothing whatsoever to do with the risk of needing to use it in the future, which rises as you age.

 

As you age it gets harder to get insured. And if you drop the policy until you find you need hospital care it will be way too late as at that point whatever you need it for would nto be covered as it would be pre-exisitng.

 

Lots of people on this board who dearly wish they could get insurance but cannot due to pre-existng conditions. Don't become one of them.

 

BUT - do take a good look at your policy and make sure it (1) guarantees lifetime renewal and won't cut you off at a certain age (some Thai companies do that) and (2) will cover you in case of developing chronic illness and twill not  raise your rates based on claims.

 

Might also be wise to look at what the premiums for your current policy are at subsequent ages and how these compares to other policies, including international ones (which contrary to aht many assume do nto necessarily cost moire than Thai issued policies and are often better value).

 

Because now -- while you are still healthy and under 70 -- is the time to change policies if you need to.

 

You should also consider whether you are prepared to use only government hospitals because if not, you need a much higher level of cover than 1 million baht. And it may nto be possible to raise the level of cover later on.

 

 

 

Very sound advice Sheryl. The fact the OP has already received a pay-out of 100,000 baht is reassuring. The only other consideration might be if when originally taking out the cover the OP 'worked around' any of the questions about previous history? However, you would expect that not to be the case with them already making a pay out.

[newnative]

1 hour ago, vukovar77 said:

You work for insurance company?

    Whether she is or isn't, it's very good advice.  You can easily run up a million baht or more in medical charges very quickly.  A friend of mine was in the hospital for less than a week, part of the time in the ICU.  The bill was 700,000 baht.

    As I mentioned in a previous post, my Thai mother-in-law, with no insurance, has racked up 1MB in medical fees and she is still in the ICU with chemotherapy ahead of her and who knows what else. She has also started dialysis.  I expect the final bill will be at least 2MB or more.  

    If you have 3MB to self-insure, that is your decision. If not, I would have at least that much in insurance.

[callmeacab]

Do you really want to, as you put it, gamble with your health?

[Old Croc]

I am now 71 and self insure. I have enough financial backup to cover contingencies.

My health deteriorated a couple of years after my arrival here, and I had a couple of stays in hospital (4 nights each time) and have also had lens replacement surgery. I see 3 doctors on a regular basis and have full blood tests every quarter. All at an international hospital.

Excluding the copious bills for medications and home equipment, I have spent around 3/4 mill. at the hospital in 6 1/2 years.

Having done the sums, I consider I am still ahead of what I would have spent on insurance since arrival 9+ years ago, even if I had been acceptable at my age and with my pre-existing conditions.  Bear in mind hospital charges are much lower if the bill isn't going to an insurance company.

If you are able to pay your own way, and can produce a large lump sum if needed, I consider insurance overpriced for my age group.

[crazykopite]

I am also in my late 60 yearly health cover is outrageous cost so,I choose to take a risk however I do have substantial savings plus 800,000 in a Thai bank because of immigration requirements . My wife an I were quoted well over a 120,000 per year she needed an op last year cost me less than 100,000 baht using a Government Hospital who were terrific she even had her own private room.

[BestB]

2 hours ago, simon43 said:

That's because they only recently opened up their insurance policy to people living worldwide.  They are an Israeli company and previously only provided national policies, not international.

Yes I am well aware of that, but that does not make it any more helpful to know how they are on international level ????

[marioc]

It is also to be considered if the OP has the possibility to go back to his country to have free medical treatment (chemotherapy, operations follow-uo etc.). This could be an option helping him to make the final decision whether dumping or not his current insurance.

[khunPer]

On 7/17/2019 at 11:20 AM, humdrumdays said:

With the current exchange rates I am considering stopping it. But with sod's law as soon as I stop paying something is bound to happen! Any thoughts?

As @OneMoreFarang said that if you struggle to pay 40k baht a year, how would you manage a self insurance in case something happens?

 

However, it's a question that I presume many of us have when we're reaching the age of mid 60'ies and up, considering the fairly high price for a reduced coverage, knowing that the annual fees will only go up, the older we get; suddenly it's up around 100k baht or more a year for 1 million baht inpatient only coverage.

 

Considering the risk of self-insurance might well be a question of, if the more affordable government hospitals are Okay – eventually with the possibility of paying for a so-called VIP-room, which could even be available from less than 1,000 baht a day in certain areas – and the amount of easy accessable cash set aside; cash that preferably someone else has access to, in a serious case.

 

@Sheryl, the forum's health expert, will often mention a relative high self-insurance sum – depending of use of public or private hospital – like anything between 1 million baht and 3 million baht; and she will furthermore mention that if something happens, and you use your "emergency fund", what will you do if something more happens?

 

The government has talked about insurance for long-stay expats in connection with the new one-year A-O "retirement" visa, where the demand is 400k baht inpatient, and 40k baht outpatient. That could be used as a guidance for what minimum shall be set aside as accessable emergency fund using government hospitals, i.e. minimum 440k baht.

 

If you look at the official home page for "long-stay" health insurance, you will find that a 400k + 40k baht insurance, for 66 to 70 years of age, will cost from around 55k baht to 85k baht a year; for comparison with your existing 1M baht insurance, and a self-insurance risk.

 

And even you have some 440+k baht set aside, you still need to regularly top-up for inflation, and in case of use of funds, so you would continue to pay a kind of monthly premium into your self-insurance account, which could well be the the range of some 4k baht a month to cover similar of 10% annual increase; i.e. around 40k baht or more a year.

 

On the other hand, you might have some exclusions in a health insurance – more than just outpatient – and you might reach an age, where an insurance company either won't continue the insurance, or quote an annual fee that is out of reach. The 400k+40k baht insurance from 76-100 years is for example 120k baht a year; i.e. 27% annual premium of the insured limit. So you should always have some level of easy access emergency lump sum available when living in Thailand. Paying insurance might make it more difficult to increase that lump sum over time; whilst being self-insured, and nothing happens with the health, will leave you with a growing emergency fund.

 

It's a difficult question of balance between health insurance, and money set-aside, and fully self-insured.

 

When I moved to Thailand I choose a level under the highest available Bupa-insurance, and saved the difference into my emergency account, it was something like 20k a year that I could save up. I never used my health insurance – hopefully I have inherit my family's good health genes, I had never been into a hospital other than as a visitor – so when I was in my early 60'ies I decided for a lower health coverage to 400k inpatient, and paid more into my emergency fund, and by 66 the insurance rate was going that high up for my very basic health insurance that it was not worth it when looking at the limitations, so I decided to be self-insured; however still buying a Personal Accident insurance, which is (very) affordable. Besides my savings – I already had been able to set aside some lump sum into my emergency fund when I settled here – I still continue to pay a monthly "insurance" fee to myself. I'm well aware of the risk that I take, but I both have some level of available cash, and also access to more funds than what I have set aside specific for health.

 

My advice: Even if you have a good health history, if you don't have a reasonable lump sum available, don't give up insurance – yet – however consider the future, and plan thereafter...????

 

[Tony125]

On 8/2/2019 at 11:40 AM, pookondee said:

Keeping the insurance is still a gamble in itself.. the gamble whether they will actually pay up if you make a claim and not pull some BS clause in the fine print to get out of it.

 

Also just because you are covered now, it doesnt mean they will not cut you off at a certain age.

AND if they dont cut you off, the premiums will skyrocket as risk gets higher..no consideraion of the fortune youve already paid them!

 

Either way they win, which is of course how it works, otherwise they wouldnt be in business, and making their directors rich.

 

Complete SCAM if you ask me.

If you have always had reasonable health, chances are you will pay in an absolute fortune and get absolutely nothing in return.

I always was in good  shape health. Retired (65)came here did nothing but stay on PC ,watch TV and go out with wife to movies /dinner, gained over 20 pounds . Had a heart attack and barely made it to nearby hospital (Vibavadi)  They did angioplasty and I fully recovered, ate healthier (no McD's every day) joined gym ride bicycle 5---20 milws every day loss weight feel great. Cost of operation $8,000 USD. Same in US would have been $47,000. My Gov insurance  paid for all but $800.

Now I try to stay healthy by exercise, better nutrition, less stress and various vitamins and suppliments. Feel better than when I first came over but never can tell when things  could go south. Keep the insurance (at least for awhile) and then try to get into the best shape of your life. If you can't lose weight and do that than you would be crazy to cancell insurance.

[Saltire]

5 hours ago, simon43 said:

Saltire mentioned that he is covered by HealthCare International.  I was previously covered under their policy.  Never had to make a claim.  I recently changed to a $1.2M policy from DavidShield.  The only reason for the change was because DavidShield has a zero dollar excess, whereas my previous policy has a $2,000 excess.

 

My premium increased when I changed policies, due to the zero $ excess.  I pay about 4,500 baht a month.  I'm 60 years old.

Yes @SImon43 I remember you saying you switched and that time I checked on a quote from them. For me, I think a few critical years older, the premium was higher and the coverage less for my choice of cover. Also I figured having been with HCI for 5 years I felt switching was not to my advantage as the years advance.

 

As everyone says - it's a gamble if you have insurance, it's a gamble if you don't.

 

I like to think at least I am reducing the odds by adopting a healthier lifestyle. Thailand in that respect has been good for me (having 'overindulged' in Siem Reap for the previous 5 years). Exercise daily, down 20 Kg  (45 pounds) so far, 5 to go, adopted a ketogenic lifestyle (Low carb high fat) 2 years ago and now off most of my meds. Never grantees but if you can move the odds in your favour then you should do so.

 

Biggest advantage for me is the nearest 7/11 is one hours drive, no fast food restaurants and no bars for 3 hours. 

 

Wishing everyone good health.

 

 

[wgdanson]

On 8/2/2019 at 11:40 AM, pookondee said:

Keeping the insurance is still a gamble in itself.. the gamble whether they will actually pay up if you make a claim and not pull some BS clause in the fine print to get out of it.

 

Also just because you are covered now, it doesnt mean they will not cut you off at a certain age.

AND if they dont cut you off, the premiums will skyrocket as risk gets higher..no consideraion of the fortune youve already paid them!

 

Either way they win, which is of course how it works, otherwise they wouldnt be in business, and making their directors rich.

 

Complete SCAM if you ask me.

If you have always had reasonable health, chances are you will pay in an absolute fortune and get absolutely nothing in return.

And if you are a good driver, and have paid car insurance for 40 years without a claim, what did you get in return?

[wgdanson]

17 hours ago, KittenKong said:

Some readers might be interested in knowing the name of the company.

Yes please.

[wgdanson]

6 hours ago, rwill said:

For your age group David Shield Essential plan gives 32M baht coverage for a little over 48K/year

But get over 70 and..NO WAY!

[simon43]

Where do you rate medical insurance cover in your list of priorities, as far as your monthly outgoings are concerned?

 

For me, because I have little savings, it is my #1 priority, over accommodation, eating out etc.

 

As I get older and enter higher age bands, I know that my insurance premium will rise.  I can downgrade my accommodation rental costs if necessary and I can eat healthily and cheaply.

 

Even if my premiums doubled or tripled as I enter higher age bands, I would still continue my medical insurance. I'm lucky in that I took out this insurance before I had any pre-existing conditions, (and I still have none).  I also chose a company that can only increase my premiums by the same amount for everyone in that age-band and can never terminate my cover, so long as I pay the premium.

 

I don't have any requirement to leave an inheritance - I can use my money how I want ????

 

This gives me peace of mind.

[wgdanson]

11 minutes ago, simon43 said:

Where do you rate medical insurance cover in your list of priorities, as far as your monthly outgoings are concerned?

 

For me, because I have little savings, it is my #1 priority, over accommodation, eating out etc.

 

As I get older and enter higher age bands, I know that my insurance premium will rise.  I can downgrade my accommodation rental costs if necessary and I can eat healthily and cheaply.

 

Even if my premiums doubled or tripled as I enter higher age bands, I would still continue my medical insurance. I'm lucky in that I took out this insurance before I had any pre-existing conditions, (and I still have none).  I also chose a company that can only increase my premiums by the same amount for everyone in that age-band and can never terminate my cover, so long as I pay the premium.

 

I don't have any requirement to leave an inheritance - I can use my money how I want ????

 

This gives me peace of mind.

Which company are you with please?

[simon43]

14 hours ago, wgdanson said:

Which company are you with please?

I'm with DavidShield, changed just before my 60th birthday from Healthcare International. 

 

I changed only because DavidShield has a zero $ excess, whereas Healthcare International has a $2,000 excess.  I considered that while $2,000 is not a large sum, in the scenario that I might have several ailments in my dotage, and have to fork out $2,000 each time, right now it's an unknown factor if I would be able to afford multiple payments of $2,000.  So I changed to a zero $ excess policy.

[wgdanson]

56 minutes ago, simon43 said:

I'm with DavidShield, changed just before my 60th birthday from Healthcare International. 

 

I changed only because DavidShield has a zero $ excess, whereas Healthcare International has a $2,000 excess.  I considered that while $2,000 is not a large sum, in the scenario that I might have several ailments in my dotage, and have to fork out $2,000 each time, right now it's an unknown factor if I would be able to afford multiple payments of $2,000.  So I changed to a zero $ excess policy.

Thanks. As I said previously David would not look at me over 70, so I went with Cigna, zero excess.

[cheshiremusicman]

One of the questions I would ask you is 'Where do you live here in Thailand?'

I am 76 and live in Hua-Hin and stopped paying for health insurance when I was 70 when the premiums were increasing at an almost exponential rate each year. 

I have used the local Government hospital and the Military hospital here in HH and had excellent service from both of them that cost me a pittance compared to the private hospitals. Example, I needed to have an urgent brain operation and was quoted 1 million Baht for the operation and 1 million Baht for aftercare. I had the operation at the HH General hospital and the total costs to me were just under 50,000 Baht. It is more than likely that the neurological surgeon that operated on me could have been the same one to operate on me in the local private hospitals. One of my neighbours had a hip replacement at the HH General hospital and again the cost to her was substantially lower than using the private hospital. 

The choice is obviously up to yourself. I wish you continued good health. 

[Caine]

As heard in many Thai bars. UP TO YOU

[Essex Reject]

On 8/3/2019 at 9:42 AM, rwill said:

For your age group David Shield Essential plan gives 32M baht coverage for a little over 48K/year

Too expensive. Like I said I want coverage for around 3/4 mil a year, if you need to pay  a hospital 32 mil then you may as well be dead anyway.

[KiChakayan]

On 8/3/2019 at 3:07 PM, khunPer said:

The government has talked about insurance for long-stay expats in connection with the new one-year A-O "retirement" visa, where the demand is 400k baht inpatient, and 40k baht outpatient. That could be used as a guidance for what minimum shall be set aside as accessable emergency fund using government hospitals, i.e. minimum 440k baht.

That's not correct the 400000 is the "Max. Payable limit Inpatient hospitalization and surgery per disease/per visit". So you'd need a lot more money to set aside to give yourself the same coverage.

[khunPer]

4 hours ago, KiChakayan said:

On 8/3/2019 at 10:07 AM, khunPer said:

The government has talked about insurance for long-stay expats in connection with the new one-year A-O "retirement" visa, where the demand is 400k baht inpatient, and 40k baht outpatient. That could be used as a guidance for what minimum shall be set aside as accessable emergency fund using government hospitals, i.e. minimum 440k baht.

That's not correct the 400000 is the "Max. Payable limit Inpatient hospitalization and surgery per disease/per visit". So you'd need a lot more money to set aside to give yourself the same coverage.

Yes, but please note that I said "...a guidance for what minimum shall be set aside...".

 

If you check the insurance conditions, there are numerous limitations, like for example price for "room & bord per day", for example 2,500 baht, and number of days per disability, which in ICU could be 15 days, and max. 170k baht in total for R&B; a limit on "hospital general expenses", which could be 100k baht; "surgical fee (as per schedule)", which could be 100k baht. All figures quoted are Viriyah Insurance. So even you have a 400k baht insurance, you might hit limits before the 400k baht insured amount.

 

Being self-insured, you don't hit any other limits, than the total accessable amount. On the other hand, if you use that, then you have zero left...

[elgenon]

If you discontinue and try to re-up when you're older you may have difficulty getting a policy.