Scotland must be given new independence vote - Sturgeon

[vogie]

18 minutes ago, Airbagwill said:

Duh! No! but it has made a difference to the people of Scotland who are united in a wish to determine their own future - especially in relation to the EU and if that means leaving one union to join another, it looks like they will.

Why are you attributing quotes to posters that didn't post that?

[melvinmelvin]

30 minutes ago, jayboy said:

That's a peculiar thought.Of course there are millions of English people who believe in the Union of the United KIngdom just as there are millions of Scots who feel much the same way.If nevertheless there is a referendum and the majority of Scots opt for independence, I don't think there will be any English people who will "be afraid what will happen". The huge majority of English people may feel sad but will wish Scotland well -  always our friends and sometimes our families.Of course Scotland can make it as an independent country given its native genius - though as I've set out elsewhere there will be great challenges.I hope Scotland will stay but if it doesn't, don't for one moment think it will face malice and obstruction from its Southern neighbour.We are bound together forever one way or the other.

 

Some facts for the interested

 

 

https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainers/second-referendum-scottish-independence

ta,

interesting read, pretty simple and straight forward

 

who is chipping in to keep that thinktank afloat?

 

 

[vogie]

16 minutes ago, Airbagwill said:

That's in the past - the current situation is different and reality is setting in.

And again? Do you know how the quote system works on Thaivisa, it's becoming embarrassing.

[melvinmelvin]

1 hour ago, RuamRudy said:

All part of a strategy that Westminster has been playing for centuries. 

 

good history lesson, thanks for that

guess many know that the British are imperial in thinking and go for

ripple ruling (or ruling ripples should you prefer) with their superiority complex

 

dunno soi RR but it is not obvious to me that the spirit of these newspaper cuts

fits the Westminster/Scotland situation of today

 

seems to me that the msm snippets above suggest that Britain is saving the colonies

from their own stupidity and inabilities to hack society and life the way Westminster

fancies society and life should be hacked

 

not quite the attitude towards Scotland today

 

(guess it depends on how you view it and what your priorities are)

 

[evadgib]

2 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

Question time?

You might as well base your opinions on the Conservative party conference ???? 

It came from ???????????????????????????? with a ???????????????????????????? audience & was broadcast with no input from me therefore my opinions have no bearing on your latest rhubarbing backfiring.

 

[jayboy]

41 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

who is chipping in to keep that thinktank afloat?

https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/about-us/our-funding-and-collaborations

[melvinmelvin]

38 minutes ago, evadgib said:

It came from ???????????????????????????? with a ???????????????????????????? audience & was broadcast with no input from me therefore my opinions have no bearing on your latest rhubarbing backfiring.

 

 

complete baba bobo,

as confused as the exchange of views here on TVF

 

 

[vogie]

2 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

complete baba bobo,

as confused as the exchange of views here on TVF

 

 

There is no confusion, the Scots voted to remain within our union, the problem occurs when the SNP didn't like the result.

[Rookiescot]

15 minutes ago, vogie said:

There is no confusion, the Scots voted to remain within our union, the problem occurs when the SNP didn't like the result.

Why do the polls now show a majority for independence then? 

[Susco]

8 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Why do the polls now show a majority for independence then? 

Because the independence referendum was before the brexit refrendum, and it is a known fact that the Scots majority voted remain in the brexit refderendum

[melvinmelvin]

1 hour ago, vogie said:

There is no confusion, the Scots voted to remain within our union, the problem occurs when the SNP didn't like the result.

well, I do disagree with that, I see plenty confused baba bobo on the video

 

just like on TVF those who think they know invest effort in discussing irrelevant issues

 

(don't see the point of mentioning SNP all the time, they are just on of many actors here)

 

confusion comes when people resort to simple irrelevant stuff in order to avoid the complicated

issues, for which they don't have the required intellectual capacity, that are pretty relevant when it comes to exit-Scotland

 

in lieu of mental capacity and knowedge to discuss the formalities people in HoC and on videos and on TVF

tend to resort to discuss,

what is good for Scotland

what is not good for Scotland

what is good for UK

what is not good for UK

we like Scots

Scots are welcome

Scotland's tax deficit

easy stuff to express double shaitye about, and a good theme in the Westminster pubs

 

Scotland leaving UK is first and foremost a formal act/step, a legal issue unless UK/Westminster

applaudes Scotland leaving, which they don't

 

where does legal scrutiny of the material from early 17 hundreds leave you?

acts and protocol developed between then and now, suggests what?

what do they actually say about the upper hand re exit?

 

there are plenty opinions around, however, the issue has not been tested before a court,

ie, you can't look into a book and find the answer to who has the upper hand re exit

this in my view is the real important issue here

 

no point in exchanging views on the sales potential of haggis to EU before the

formalities are sorted

[englishoak]

How many of you apparently passionate to leave Scots,  are actually involved back at home to help make it happen in any way shape or form ?

How many of you are paid up members of the SNP or donate money to the cause ?

How many of you are in various Scottish pro leave movements and forums ?

Write articles for online or social media news ?

Lobby work maybe ? 

 

Id like to think some but somehow methinks knowing TV readers its likely none. 

 

Why not spend some of that copious free time most of you have usefully for a change ?

 

There is nothing stopping anyone here from actually DOING something to help make it happen other than yourselves, then you could actually feel some self pride and give something back to your supposedly beloved homeland.

 

And yes I got involved to help make Brexit happen by doing some of the above, feels good I did too. ( caveat: didnt join the Tory party though )

It would certainly be a lot more productive than endlessly whining, arguing, self preening and merely gazing at your thistle fluff filled navels here.

 

Just a suggestion. 

 

 

[CG1 Blue]

3 hours ago, evadgib said:

It came from ???????????????????????????? with a ???????????????????????????? audience & was broadcast with no input from me therefore my opinions have no bearing on your latest rhubarbing backfiring.

 

I agree with that blonde lady in the audience, who basically said let's wait until we know what kind of UK we are leaving / staying in before having indyref 2. In other words, wait until the Brexit process has finished and had a bit of time to bed in, and then hold a referendum. 

 

While we're in Brexit transition it's disingenuous for the SNP to push for a referendum this year. How is it fair to make Scottish floating voters decide on such a huge issue when they don't yet know the outcome of Brexit?

A referendum this year would also add an unnecessary layer of complexity to the UK's negotiations with the EU. 

 

The SNP and passionate Scottish nationalists will of course disagree, because they want to capitalise on (temporary) anger around the brexit vote. The next vote on independence should take place when heads have cooled, and when there is more certainty over what a post Brexit UK looks like. IMO 

 

 

[melvinmelvin]

1 hour ago, CG1 Blue said:

I agree with that blonde lady in the audience, who basically said let's wait until we know what kind of UK we are leaving / staying in before having indyref 2. In other words, wait until the Brexit process has finished and had a bit of time to bed in, and then hold a referendum. 

 

While we're in Brexit transition it's disingenuous for the SNP to push for a referendum this year. How is it fair to make Scottish floating voters decide on such a huge issue when they don't yet know the outcome of Brexit?

A referendum this year would also add an unnecessary layer of complexity to the UK's negotiations with the EU. 

 

The SNP and passionate Scottish nationalists will of course disagree, because they want to capitalise on (temporary) anger around the brexit vote. The next vote on independence should take place when heads have cooled, and when there is more certainty over what a post Brexit UK looks like. IMO 

 

 

 

bloody h

 

this entry is pretty much in line with the msm snippets that RR posted a couple of pages back

 

why cannot England just leave Scotland in peace and let

Scotland decide what they feel is necessary to know

Scotland determine the temperatur of their heads

Scotland determine what they need to know about Brexit

 

it is just bloody incredible how England, MSM and inhabitants and the mostly English parties are treating

Scotland, constantly stamping and walking on Scotland and the Scots as they were imbeciles

 

the temperature in the average jock attic is none of Westminster's or England's business

 

 

Edited February 16, 2020 by melvinmelvin

[GinBoy2]

8 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

All part of a strategy that Westminster has been playing for centuries. 

Not arguing against your general point.

 

But, in defense of the Brits, the last one regarding Singapore, wasn't actually anything to do with the Brits.

 

Tan Siew Sin was a Malaysian politician, who talking about Singapore's secession from the already independent Federation of Malaysia

[melvinmelvin]

re the post above,

fair enough, but up until about 1960 or so Singapore was British playground

 

 

[Airbagwill]

6 hours ago, Susco said:

Because the independence referendum was before the brexit refrendum, and it is a known fact that the Scots majority voted remain in the brexit refderendum

So now Scotland will leave.

[GinBoy2]

47 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

re the post above,

fair enough, but up until about 1960 or so Singapore was British playground

 

 

Since I'm a bit of a history geek, Malaya gained total independence from Britain in 1957, although it had in reality been independent from 1948, but the Brits stayed to put down the communist insurrection

 

Singapore seceded from the Federation in 1965, which is the date celebrated as their Independence Day, not that from Britain.

On a really technical note, the Malaysian Government actually expelled Singapore.

 

But I guess you could well argue that the Malaysians just learnt their tricks from the former colonial masters

[Somtamnication]

I am so ready to help re-build Hadrian's Wall. Here I am with my bricks in hand.

[Rookiescot]

1 hour ago, Somtamnication said:

I am so ready to help re-build Hadrian's Wall. Here I am with my bricks in hand.

Hilarious.

Especially given that Hadrians wall is not in Scotland.

[vogie]

8 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

Why do the polls now show a majority for independence then? 

The Scottish referendum for independence is a factual indicator of Scottish thought, not a couple of polls that to a certain degree is total guesswork no matter how much you'd like to believe them. 

But having said that I suspect that just around the time of the General Election Scottish sentiment may have been running a little higher than normal. Give it a while and I believe you will see a the tide turn back to reality and normality. 

But seeing you put your trust in polls, this YouGov poll shows that the Scots may be in favour of another independence referendum, but not for 5 years, tis only the SNP that is running around and frothing at the mouth for a sooner than later referendum, hence my reference in past posts that the SNP is not in synch with the Scots.

 

 

 

[evadgib]

11 hours ago, Airbagwill said:

what is your point?

Was it not obvious?

[RuamRudy]

6 hours ago, englishoak said:

How many of you apparently passionate to leave Scots,  are actually involved back at home to help make it happen in any way shape or form ?

How many of you are paid up members of the SNP or donate money to the cause ?

How many of you are in various Scottish pro leave movements and forums ?

Write articles for online or social media news ?

Lobby work maybe ? 

 

Id like to think some but somehow methinks knowing TV readers its likely none. 

 

Why not spend some of that copious free time most of you have usefully for a change ?

 

There is nothing stopping anyone here from actually DOING something to help make it happen other than yourselves, then you could actually feel some self pride and give something back to your supposedly beloved homeland.

 

And yes I got involved to help make Brexit happen by doing some of the above, feels good I did too. ( caveat: didnt join the Tory party though )

It would certainly be a lot more productive than endlessly whining, arguing, self preening and merely gazing at your thistle fluff filled navels here.

 

Just a suggestion. 

 

 

You have built a strawman in your head and now are projecting it onto people about whom you know very little.

 

It is certaintly one of the more interesting takes on any topic debated on TV that I can recall. 

 

To overcome your anxiety, I propose a Heller style loyalty oath where all us scotnats declare fealty and money to the unicorn. 

[Rookiescot]

1 hour ago, vogie said:

The Scottish referendum for independence is a factual indicator of Scottish thought, not a couple of polls that to a certain degree is total guesswork no matter how much you'd like to believe them. 

But having said that I suspect that just around the time of the General Election Scottish sentiment may have been running a little higher than normal. Give it a while and I believe you will see a the tide turn back to reality and normality. 

But seeing you put your trust in polls, this YouGov poll shows that the Scots may be in favour of another independence referendum, but not for 5 years, tis only the SNP that is running around and frothing at the mouth for a sooner than later referendum, hence my reference in past posts that the SNP is not in synch with the Scots.

 

 

 

You need to check what it says.

"in the next 5 years". That means the majority of Scots want a referendum to occur within 5 years.

It does not say "in another 5 years".

Its a loaded question anyway. If you do not want a referendum at all you will answer no to all the options. If you want a referendum you could answer yes to all the options or actually only give one answer.

[RuamRudy]

5 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

bloody h

 

this entry is pretty much in line with the msm snippets that RR posted a couple of pages back

 

why cannot England just leave Scotland in peace and let

Scotland decide what they feel is necessary to know

Scotland determine the temperatur of their heads

Scotland determine what they need to know about Brexit

 

it is just bloody incredible how England, MSM and inhabitants and the mostly English parties are treating

Scotland, constantly stamping and walking on Scotland and the Scots as they were imbeciles

 

the temperature in the average jock attic is none of Westminster's or England's business

 

 

I will be honest with you, and I am sure I am preaching to the converted, but I am not comfortable with the talk of Scots against English. It is Westminster that is our target, not English people. 

 

I don't believe that anyone in England voted tory in order to prevent indyref2 - I am sure that was furthest from most voters' minds. 

 

Whether we remain in the UK or go our separate ways, the last thing we need is for the sort of schism that Brexit has created. 

 

Apologies if I sound preachy - not my intention, but I think words are important, especially when some people exploit them and willingly twist their meaning. 

[vogie]

15 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

You need to check what it says.

"in the next 5 years". That means the majority of Scots want a referendum to occur within 5 years.

It does not say "in another 5 years".

Its a loaded question anyway. If you do not want a referendum at all you will answer no to all the options. If you want a referendum you could answer yes to all the options or actually only give one answer.

Putting your interpretation on a poll is part of the course for Team SNP, if they had meant 3 years, they would have said 3 years, because you don't agree with what appears in front of your very eyes, it is a "loaded question" 

 

"Scots don’t think there should be a referendum in the next couple of years, even if the SNP win the Scottish Parliament elections

With MSPs voting yesterday to say that a referendum should be held the stage looks set for a fight between the Scottish and British governments. Nicola Sturgeon has called for a new vote to take place this year, but relatively few Scots are in favour of such an early poll." 

[Rookiescot]

3 minutes ago, vogie said:

Putting your interpretation on a poll is part of the course for Team SNP, if they had meant 3 years, they would have said 3 years, because you don't agree with what appears in front of your very eyes, it is a "loaded question" 

 

"Scots don’t think there should be a referendum in the next couple of years, even if the SNP win the Scottish Parliament elections

With MSPs voting yesterday to say that a referendum should be held the stage looks set for a fight between the Scottish and British governments. Nicola Sturgeon has called for a new vote to take place this year, but relatively few Scots are in favour of such an early poll." 

Its not my interpretation. Its a fact. Its a dumb question. They should have simply asked "Do you want another referendum".

Another problem with the question is the options referring to a majority or not in the Scottish parliament. MSP's are elected via a variation of proportional representation. Its designed not to allow one party a majority. If it was first past the post the SNP would have something like 80% of the seats.

So a dumb question. 

 

[RuamRudy]

12 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

good history lesson, thanks for that

guess many know that the British are imperial in thinking and go for

ripple ruling (or ruling ripples should you prefer) with their superiority complex

 

dunno soi RR but it is not obvious to me that the spirit of these newspaper cuts

fits the Westminster/Scotland situation of today

 

seems to me that the msm snippets above suggest that Britain is saving the colonies

from their own stupidity and inabilities to hack society and life the way Westminster

fancies society and life should be hacked

 

not quite the attitude towards Scotland today

 

(guess it depends on how you view it and what your priorities are)

 

There has definitely been a relentless push over many decades to suggest that an independent Scotland could not survive without a return to Dickensian levels of poverty. On here, frequently, posters state openly that Scots are a net drain on UK resources, and that our country is kept afloat thanks to the largesse of rUK. 

 

The fact that it is impossible to derive accurate statistics on Scottish finances is part of the issue and, of course, a deliberate part of the strategy of obfuscation. So many Scots still believe that we are incapable of doing what every other country in the world, more or less, manages to do - this is the effect of generations of the type of brainwashing that these articles seek to promote. 

[vogie]

1 hour ago, Rookiescot said:

Its not my interpretation. Its a fact. Its a dumb question. They should have simply asked "Do you want another referendum".

Another problem with the question is the options referring to a majority or not in the Scottish parliament. MSP's are elected via a variation of proportional representation. Its designed not to allow one party a majority. If it was first past the post the SNP would have something like 80% of the seats.

So a dumb question. 

 

I do not agree again with your interpretation that it is a "dumb question" don't you think that there has to be a timeline so people can feel the want of the country. By asking "Do you want another referendum" tells us nothing, the people asked could want a ref tomorrow, or in our lifetime, hardly definitive, IMO anyway.

Didn't Mrs Sturgeon herself say, that there isn't an enough of a majority at this moment to warrant another referendum.

Anyway there are only two things for sure and that is the Scots voted to remain within our union and that more Scots voted for remaining in the union than Scots voted for the SNP in this GE.

 

 

[Laughing Gravy]

8 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

The SNP and passionate Scottish nationalists will of course disagree, because they want to capitalise on (temporary) anger around the brexit vote.

I agree with your post. The Scotts have had a once in a lifetime referendum and of course want another, 6 years later. I hope the EU who seem to be supporting this give all EU members a referendum, if they can leave or stay in the EU.  Also grant Catalonia the choice too.

 

I guess we all know that answer. Selective to what it suits them (the EU). A bit like their concept on democracy.

Edited February 17, 2020 by Laughing Gravy