Is Vietnam the winner in Thailand's visa game?

[Mavideol]

3 hours ago, BritManToo said:

Vietnam is a great place for a holiday, no VISA required for me, but I've never considered it as a retirement destination.

Unless you marry or reproduce with a VIet, then you can get a 5 year VISA for $50.

 

Cambodia and the Philippines are the easy places to retire for single men.

Philippines with all the typhoons, volcanoes, thunder storms, flooding.... too risky for me

[Jingthing]

5 minutes ago, Mavideol said:

Philippines with all the typhoons, volcanoes, thunder storms, flooding.... too risky for me

Yeah but perhaps there are lower risk specific locations there as the storms come from the east. Perhaps Ilioilio city or Bacolod? 

[fforest1]

1 hour ago, Roy Baht said:

There are definitely fewer Westerners here now. Over the past few years, in my own experience, I have seen people leave--either moving to other countries or dying off.

 

Another metric that has been mentioned is there scarcity of Western goods that can be found in Thai supermarkets. Years ago, Tesco-Lotus had all sorts of things. Now, not so much.

Westerners were and are leaving Thailand because of the plastic bag ban...

[legend49]

5 hours ago, Roy Baht said:

No, Vietnam is now clamping down on long-stay tourist visas--and they have nothing like the Non-O long stay. It's not looking for retirees.

New rules go into effect 20 July 2020:

"Accordingly, the amended law stipulates that a foreigner will be allowed to remain for only 30 days in Vietnam when granted a 30-day or longer tourist visa"

https://vietnamnet.vn/en/society/police-profile-foreign-criminals-entering-vietnam-601182.html

So the bad apples now impact on good aliens.

[Roy Baht]

1 hour ago, fforest1 said:

Westerners were and are leaving Thailand because of the plastic bag ban...

You can stay but you need a lot of sack. ????

[Jingthing]

A "famous" vlogger about retiring cheap in Thailand and Vietnam claims that he's heard Vietnam is developing a retirement visa. It doesn't seem on brand for them but in some ways cracking down on virtual retirement other ways might be a precursor of offering something formal. 

[talfarlow]

4 hours ago, Fairynuff said:

From my observation and therefore I’m not suggesting facts, it’s easy for foreigners to own and run a business in Vietnam. Observations based on the number of Russians working in Nha Trang.

This point gets talked about frequently in the expat community. I know the tourist area fairly well and some other areas in the greater Ho Chi Minh area. The quote that gets mentioned often here is "One of the easiest places to start a business, one of the worst to keep a business".

A lot of otherwise successful people have trouble maintaining a businesses s here. A frequent pattern is to see someone build a business and then start getting hit on for "coffee money", increased inspections, local commander of the cop shop etc...eventually the business has to move out or fold. There's tons of corruption and difficulties with staffing, supplying etc..

As gets mentioned and seems to be forgotten quickly, is there's no retirement visa. The previously easy-to-get yet dubious "business visa" is getting clamped down on in a serious way. It's a side note but one worth thinking about. Vietnam isn't excited about (exception noted for recent deals with Chinese interests) having lots of foreigners to come in and start being the movers and shakers. With their history of colonialism gone bad, they have in recent history only allowed a dozen or so foreigners some version of citizenship - mainly those who fought in the "war with America". Most of the people pushing the idea here have their own agenda for it or simply aren't aware of the history.

[2BOB]

Six months ago i went to Chiang Mai expat meeting. there were 10 tables with 10 per table. they were doing a servey about what our future was in Thailand. we were asked weather we would stay or leave . 29% said they were in process of leaving 17% said they were concidering 

leaving. At the end of the meeting we address by a gentelman that runs a visa assist company

in CH he had the latest figures from immigration 40% of all expats  had already left Thailand. That was 6 months ago . Wonder what that figure would be now

 

[mokwit]

5 minutes ago, talfarlow said:

A lot of otherwise successful people have trouble maintaining a businesses s here.

Someone who spent years there told me that it happens that once you have built a house/established a business your wife arranges with VN immigration to ensure you are not issued further visas and have to leave.

 

The politest thing I have heard the Vietnamese called by people who operated there for years is "tough sons of bitches".

Edited January 17, 2020 by mokwit

[Roy Baht]

7 minutes ago, 2BOB said:

Six months ago i went to Chiang Mai expat meeting. there were 10 tables with 10 per table. they were doing a servey about what our future was in Thailand. we were asked weather we would stay or leave . 29% said they were in process of leaving 17% said they were concidering 

leaving. At the end of the meeting we address by a gentelman that runs a visa assist company

in CH he had the latest figures from immigration 40% of all expats  had already left Thailand. That was 6 months ago . Wonder what that figure would be now

 

10 tables with 3 per table?

[Roy Baht]

22 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

A "famous" vlogger about retiring cheap in Thailand and Vietnam claims that he's heard Vietnam is developing a retirement visa. It doesn't seem on brand for them but in some ways cracking down on virtual retirement other ways might be a precursor of offering something formal. 

That guy is a joke. Try asking someone who doesn't make a living telling people they can retire in Thailand/Vietnam.

 

 

[Jingthing]

33 minutes ago, Roy Baht said:

That guy is a joke. Try asking someone who doesn't make a living telling people they can retire in Thailand/Vietnam.

 

 

Could be. 

Will see. 

Of course even if they do its appeal would depend on the specific requirements. 

If they were very low as for Cambodia they would likely be flooded with retired expats. 

Certainly not expecting that. 

Edited January 17, 2020 by Jingthing

[milesinnz]

6 hours ago, Roy Baht said:

No, Vietnam is now clamping down on long-stay tourist visas--and they have nothing like the Non-O long stay. It's not looking for retirees.

New rules go into effect 20 July 2020:

"Accordingly, the amended law stipulates that a foreigner will be allowed to remain for only 30 days in Vietnam when granted a 30-day or longer tourist visa"

https://vietnamnet.vn/en/society/police-profile-foreign-criminals-entering-vietnam-601182.html

and the Vietnamese cry when they are not allowed free and open access to work and stay forever in European countries... ??? what utter hypocrisy... it's little wonder the growing resentment there is particularly in Europe..

[2BOB]

nope 125 people

 

[Roy Baht]

21 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Could be. 

Will see. 

Yeah, laws in these countries is like the weather: If you don't like it, just wait a while.

[secondtime]

38 minutes ago, Roy Baht said:

That guy is a joke. Try asking someone who doesn't make a living telling people they can retire in Thailand/Vietnam.

 

He does have a point that the new rules might not apply to all countries.  The immigration websites are talking about the other new changes and staying mum on this one.  The few sites talking about it are only giving rumours and no details.  On the other hand, there are a lot of expats who do use the 90 day tourist visas to work illegally (such as Australians working in language schools) and there is basically no enforcement against them, so maybe a rule like this is to try and encourage them to get work permits.

 

[henry2109]

1 hour ago, 2BOB said:

Six months ago i went to Chiang Mai expat meeting. there were 10 tables with 10 per table. they were doing a servey about what our future was in Thailand. we were asked weather we would stay or leave . 29% said they were in process of leaving 17% said they were concidering 

leaving. At the end of the meeting we address by a gentelman that runs a visa assist company

in CH he had the latest figures from immigration 40% of all expats  had already left Thailand. That was 6 months ago . Wonder what that figure would be now

 

Probably 140 % ?

[Roy Baht]

32 minutes ago, secondtime said:

He does have a point that the new rules might not apply to all countries.  The immigration websites are talking about the other new changes and staying mum on this one.  The few sites talking about it are only giving rumours and no details.  On the other hand, there are a lot of expats who do use the 90 day tourist visas to work illegally (such as Australians working in language schools) and there is basically no enforcement against them, so maybe a rule like this is to try and encourage them to get work permits.

Check this out:
 

 

[talfarlow]

31 minutes ago, mokwit said:

Someone who spent years there told me that it happens that once you have built a house/established a business your wife arranges with VN immigration to ensure you are not issued further visas and have to leave.

 

The politest thing I have heard the Vietnamese called by people who operated there for years is "tough sons of bitches".

I haven't heard this specific scheme but it is in no way surprising. I would put the fail rate on "relationships" or "marriages" here at 8 out of 10. Lots of guys here lose houses and savings accounts to one thing or another. I wouldn't be surprised to see local Vietnamese watching a new business and figuring it out only to pay off people to run you out of the district.

 

When I came here I first thought the foreign guys were taking advantage of the local women......not anymore. Some of the guys might be a little off the mark but many of them are more naive than bad. I still like quite a few Vietnamese and yeah, you have to respect their toughness but it adds up to being the least trustworthy country I've lived in.

 

Unfortunate because the women here may be some of the prettiest in SE Asia, hard working etc....it's just not an easy place IMHO.

[NoshowJones]

7 hours ago, Momofarang said:

"Vietnam’s current tourist visa is valid for up to three months, and the visa holder can stay in the country for the entire period at a stretch. Foreigners have taken advantage of this visa policy to enter Vietnam to commit technology-related crimes or work illegally."

 

Rings a bell, doesn't?

Is it not up to countries like Vietnam and Thailand to deter illegals, and people illegally working by making it so that they will be too frightened to go there, and giving very hard punishments and jail time for anyone caught working illegally or deliberately overstaying their visas. instead of making it hard for decent tourists and retirees? Or do brown envelopes spring to mind?

[Traubert]

1 hour ago, talfarlow said:

 It's a side note but one worth thinking about. Vietnam isn't excited about (exception noted for recent deals with Chinese interests) having lots of foreigners to come in and start being the movers and shakers. With their history of colonialism gone bad, they have in recent history only allowed a dozen or so foreigners some version of citizenship - mainly those who fought in the "war with America". Most of the people pushing the idea here have their own agenda for it or simply aren't aware of the history.

I mentioned this about three months ago, but was witheringly and condescendingly told by a colonial cousin that everyone had forgotten it in Vietnam. They haven't. There are too many still alive with very vivid memories of that invasion.

 

Also, the fact is, that if you talked about Vietnam in Vietnam on social media the same way Thailand is talked about on here, you would be gone very quickly. Lets face it, some can't help themselves.

1 hour ago, 2BOB said:

Six months ago i went to Chiang Mai expat meeting. there were 10 tables with 10 per table. they were doing a servey about what our future was in Thailand. we were asked weather we would stay or leave . 29% said they were in process of leaving 17% said they were concidering 

leaving. At the end of the meeting we address by a gentelman that runs a visa assist company

in CH he had the latest figures from immigration 40% of all expats  had already left Thailand. That was 6 months ago . Wonder what that figure would be now

 

It seems your man was well informed. At the end of 2018 there were 250,000 expats in Thailand, excluding Asian nationals. A figure surfaced on another thread last night that at the end of 2019, it was now 150,000, 79,000 of whom were retirees.

[talfarlow]

Just now, possum1931 said:

Is it not up to countries like Vietnam and Thailand to deter illegals, and people illegally working by making it so that they will be too frightened to go there, and giving very hard punishments and jail time for anyone caught working illegally or deliberately overstaying their visas. instead of making it hard for decent tourists and retirees? Or do brown envelopes spring to mind?

Maybe I'm not understanding your point, but I think the typical tourist coming into Vietnam won't care much about a 90 or 30 restriction. People who work here legally won't care at all and doing it legally isn't really that expensive - you just have to be above board on it. And the Vietnamese government won't care what foreigners think. It's easy to forget that they've had the <deleted> kicked out them by the French, Americans and the Chinese. They'll take cash from anyone and yes, the brown envelope but I wouldn't confuse this with being a pro-foreigner position. As Vietnam develops I suspect they'll care less and less about a foreign presence let alone some older retired guys pretending to be in business. Just a guess though.

It may end up being more and more like Thailand - big tour buses (mostly from China), orderly Koreans with their money in District 7 and clearly documented foreigners who will add some status to some English centers.

[talfarlow]

Just now, Traubert said:

I mentioned this about three months ago, but was witheringly and condescendingly told by a colonial cousin that everyone had forgotten it in Vietnam. They haven't. There are too many still alive with very vivid memories of that invasion.

 

Also, the fact is, that if you talked about Vietnam in Vietnam on social media the same way Thailand is talked about on here, you would be gone very quickly. Lets face it, some can't help themselves.

It seems your man was well informed. At the end of 2018 there were 250,000 expats in Thailand, excluding Asian nationals. A figure surfaced on another thread last night that at the end of 2019, it was now 150,000, 79,000 of whom were retirees.

Point well taken. People on this board often compare Vietnam with Thailand and I really get that, I would do the same. It's a mistake though as you point out. A negative comment on Facebook about the government and you're likely being scheduled for a conversation at your local police station as you put the final period on the comment. A lot of foreigners romanticize Vietnam or have a nostalgia about it. "F" with the government here and you can really have your ass kicked.

You're more on the mark if you think of Vietnam as a small mirror of China (remember Vietnam is still very much a part of the Communist block here).

****disclaimer

It's their business after all, not a criticism. Don't confuse Vietnam with the Thailand you remember from 1995 or something.

Edited January 17, 2020 by talfarlow

[NoshowJones]

6 minutes ago, talfarlow said:

Maybe I'm not understanding your point, but I think the typical tourist coming into Vietnam won't care much about a 90 or 30 restriction. People who work here legally won't care at all and doing it legally isn't really that expensive - you just have to be above board on it. And the Vietnamese government won't care what foreigners think. It's easy to forget that they've had the <deleted> kicked out them by the French, Americans and the Chinese. They'll take cash from anyone and yes, the brown envelope but I wouldn't confuse this with being a pro-foreigner position. As Vietnam develops I suspect they'll care less and less about a foreign presence let alone some older retired guys pretending to be in business. Just a guess though.

It may end up being more and more like Thailand - big tour buses (mostly from China), orderly Koreans with their money in District 7 and clearly documented foreigners who will add some status to some English centers.

I don't really know anything about Vietnam, my post applied mainly to Thailand.

[talfarlow]

Just now, possum1931 said:

I don't really know anything about Vietnam, my post applied mainly to Thailand.

Ah, my bad! got caught up in the Viet side of the reading....

Take care.

[malibukid]

6 hours ago, ThomasThBKK said:

It's funny that you guys don't want to understand that Vietnam is just another craphole and in no way better than the hole we live in already, your guys desire to downgrade your life even further is mindblowing.

 

meanwhile in vietnam: 

 

 

Don't we all love some communism.

 

i was in Santa Monica recently, talk about a <deleted> hole.  full of homeless  

Edited January 17, 2020 by malibukid
miss spelling

[Christie Paul]

I don't know how many retirees and expats have left or plan to leave Thailand.

 

But I do know that amongst people who are actively engaged in curating ongoing information about reasonably civilised and good value places for people who can independantly sustain themselves, Thailand is no longer considered a popular option.   

Edited January 17, 2020 by Christie Paul
spelling

[Letseng]

9 hours ago, Roy Baht said:

Yeah, in Vietnam you can get a job, marry or invest (in fact, they've created new visa categories for investors) but retirement is not on the menu.

And you can't marry or invest in Thailand? You can't work in Thailand? You wouldn't need paperwork to work in Vietnam? How would you stay in Vietnam longterm as a non-American retiree?

[BritManToo]

4 minutes ago, Letseng said:

And you can't marry or invest in Thailand? You can't work in Thailand? You wouldn't need paperwork to work in Vietnam? How would you stay in Vietnam longterm as a non-American retiree?

Too many prohibited jobs in Thailand.

It appears you can do any work in Vietnam if you paid for the business.

Lots of foreigners running guesthouses, backpacker places, and bars and not needing to hide.

 

Getting a marriage extension in Thailand way hard, and you need $10,000 in the bank every year.

In Vietnam all you need is $50 and a wife every 5 years.

Edited January 17, 2020 by BritManToo

[Salerno]

8 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

In Vietnam all you need is $50 and a wife every 5 years.

If you like one can it be the same wife in 5 years time?