Electric cars

[Misab]

Why does Nissan Leaf (Electric car) have a starting price of 1.900.000 Baths in Thailand, when starting price in Europe is 1.100.000 Bahts. Does Nissan i Thailand by the way live up to European standard?  (European price mentioned are from Sweden and Denmark) 

 

[sirineou]

Not exactly sure, but I think the Thai price includes Thai import and or sale taxes also, 

Edited February 7, 2020 by sirineou

[madhav]

This sums it all up. I still don't understand how they come up with their prices though. Even with it all laid out in a chart like this. It seems like they are simply overcharging. Thai government has no interest in supporting the people to buy them. No incentives whatsoever. 

 

Best value in Thailand at the moment is the MG ZS EV. Stay away from the Nissan as they don't do well in the hot climate as they have no battery cooling, whereas the MG has liquid cooling to keep the battery temp stable.

 

Edited February 7, 2020 by madhav

[jackdd]

Because they estimate that by selling the car for 1.9 million they make the most profit. Many things in Thailand are more expensive than in Europe, often way more than any import duties or transport costs would justify.

[Samuel Smith]

Saw one of those MGs a couple of days ago near Chiang Mai.   wow, that thing had some acceleration ????

[canopy]

Acceleration compared to what, a tuk-tuk? The MG acceleration of 0-100kph in 8.2 seconds is tame, especially for an EV.

 

[transam]

On 2/8/2020 at 6:20 PM, Samuel Smith said:

Saw one of those MGs a couple of days ago near Chiang Mai.   wow, that thing had some acceleration ????

Was it being towed....????

[canopy]

On 2/7/2020 at 10:49 PM, madhav said:

I still don't understand how they come up with their prices though...Thai government has no interest in supporting the people to buy them. No incentives whatsoever. 

I am against government incentives--things should survive or die on their own. But I too wonder why can't the cost of EVs in Thailand be comparable to other countries? These prices are a rip off. Who wants to pay twice as much as people elsewhere for the same thing. It got me thinking, what if Tesla comes to Thailand because Tesla doesn't do dealerships. You buy direct from the Tesla web site. That could very well lead to excellent pricing in Thailand by cutting out the greedy Thai middlemen lining their pockets for no value add and raising the price of EVs above what the common man can afford. But alas, I have heard nothing forecast about Tesla coming to Thailand for any of their products. The EV market in Thailand seems lost in hopeless price gouging for the foreseeable future.

 

[madhav]

12 hours ago, canopy said:

I am against government incentives--things should survive or die on their own. But I too wonder why can't the cost of EVs in Thailand be comparable to other countries? These prices are a rip off. Who wants to pay twice as much as people elsewhere for the same thing. It got me thinking, what if Tesla comes to Thailand because Tesla doesn't do dealerships. You buy direct from the Tesla web site. That could very well lead to excellent pricing in Thailand by cutting out the greedy Thai middlemen lining their pockets for no value add and raising the price of EVs above what the common man can afford. But alas, I have heard nothing forecast about Tesla coming to Thailand for any of their products. The EV market in Thailand seems lost in hopeless price gouging for the foreseeable future.

 

If you are against government incentives, then you would be disturbed to know how much money most governments (aka tax payers) pump into the fossil fuel industry and the ICE style auto industry.
 

We have been supporting them for years through various ways, it is just not discussed so openly. Thailand is no different. Why do you think these outdated diesel pickups are cheap and you see them everywhere? It starts with the manufacturing, refinement of fossil fuels and goes all the way to the top with tax cuts to the big companies.
 

The auto parts industry represents more than 10% of Thailands GDP. That is huge!

 

The BEV and the electric motor (with only a handful of parts that requires basically no maintenance) represents a genuine threat to the industry. 
 

We have tech and EV’s available right now that would disrupt the local ICE based industry and put them out of business for ever. 500km range with 15-80% DC charge in 10 min. Million km battery life without degradation. ICE industry keeps the fake news going and we hear misinformation. 
 

 

There are several countries that have mandated no more petrol and diesel cars will be even allowed on the roads within 10-15 years. What do you think will replace them? 

 

Thailand is so far behind but let’s hope things will change, I think they will have to adapt or die.. 

 

However for the average consumer like you and me it is annoying to see what we miss out on. And what we do get is so overpriced and unattractive. The new mini electric (Which has outdated tech) can be had for 600k baht in the USA after incentives (2.3 million baht here). Or Peugeot e-208 can be had in Europe for 800k. There are so many other other options like skoda not even mentioning Tesla. 

Edited February 11, 2020 by madhav

[HauptmannUK]

Car pricing in Thailand is just stupid. Too many fingers in the pie. I saw some adverts for the e-Mini...around £60k!!  its about three times the UK price! I understand they are assembled here, including battery packs, so I don't know how they justify that pricing.

[thainet]

1 minute ago, HauptmannUK said:

Car pricing in Thailand is just stupid. Too many fingers in the pie. I saw some adverts for the e-Mini...around £60k!!  its about three times the UK price! I understand they are assembled here, including battery packs, so I don't know how they justify that pricing.

Easy mate...TAX

[HauptmannUK]

20 hours ago, thainet said:

Easy mate...TAX

I don't think its that easy....  8% tax on Thai assembled EV's. Tax nowhere near explains the difference.

[jadee]

I know that a Thai firm, Energy Absolute, took orders for their electric Mine Mobility Spa1 car at last year's Bangkok motor show - it should be cheaper than a Leaf but no idea when it will be released. 

[madhav]

3 hours ago, jadee said:

I know that a Thai firm, Energy Absolute, took orders for their electric Mine Mobility Spa1 car at last year's Bangkok motor show - it should be cheaper than a Leaf but no idea when it will be released. 

The price for that car is 1.2 million baht. For the specs that it has, it is ridiculously expensive. Especially  considering there are no import taxes or anything.
 

1.2 million baht is actually what a Tesla model 3 costs (before any subsidies) in the USA. If one were to put these 2 car side by side and see how they compare. It would be an absolute joke.

 

 

Edited February 16, 2020 by madhav

[VocalNeal]

On 2/9/2020 at 8:17 PM, canopy said:

Acceleration compared to what, a tuk-tuk? The MG acceleration of 0-100kph in 8.2 seconds is tame, especially for an EV.

 

Sadly the acceleration figures emphasized for electric cars are because the low speed torque is better than ICE (internal combustion engine) but it is also to distract us from the real issue. 

 

They have not yet been able to solve the pitiful range of electric cars compared to ICE. 

 

Acceleration numbers are for journalists and bar chats.

Edited February 17, 2020 by VocalNeal

[richard_smith237]

IMO this simply outlines Thailands atrocious approach to keeping the cities clean. 

 

Those EV’s ‘could' be imported and sold Tax free to a government who are prepared to stand behind their ridiculous statements of trying to clean up the cities. 

 

The high tax on the car imports is what is killing the potential for the EV Market in Thailand. 

 

Electric busses and other public transport measure could also be taken. The actions which need to be taken by those in positions of decision making power are ‘too big’ there is no simple one stop solution, the work is too hard, too much to think about and too many people already at the trough who would be upset. 

 

In a country such as Thailand change can only happen extremely slowly or where extremely profitable and that includes something as simple as putting more EV’s on the roads. 

 

 

[transam]

I see the Leaf has a battery guaranty of "up to" 8 years, or 160,000km, which means , if you drive a lot they will need changing well before 8 years. For a near 2,000,000bht not so big car that does seem an expensive gamble...With a range of just 200 miles, think would give it a miss...

[canopy]

1 hour ago, VocalNeal said:

They have not yet been able to solve the pitiful range of electric cars compared to ICE. 

Pitiful? Maybe you are misinformed. Tesla's are doing 400, 500, and even 1000 km of range depending on model. And that's THIS YEAR. Future will just go higher and higher.

 

1 hour ago, VocalNeal said:

Acceleration numbers are for journalists and bar chats.

Baloney! Ever since the 1960's engine performance has been pathetic and weak. They make these puny little gutless engines and the manufacturers explains to us how sporty and powerful they are. Everyone is guilty of dumbing down their car performance from GM to Mercedes. I love good acceleration. I love good handling. It's useful and improves safety driving on Thai roads. Example: nothing worse than being forced to make a blind turn onto a road and boom, a car pops out and you've not got the acceleration to keep him from having to slam on the brakes to avoid a collision. I love what I see with many EVs in terms of performance and handling. Ridiculously fast and that's a very positive and useful attribute.

 

[canopy]

24 minutes ago, transam said:

I see the Leaf...think would give it a miss

So will most everyone else. The leaf is a limited little toy compared to "real" EVs. And having to pay about double for a pathetic Leaf in Thailand than a Tesla model 3 costs in other countries is truly a double slap in the face to the consumers.

 

[Jitar]

24 minutes ago, canopy said:

Pitiful? Maybe you are misinformed. Tesla's are doing 400, 500, and even 1000 km of range depending on model. And that's THIS YEAR. Future will just go higher and higher.

None of the cars in Post #3 claim range over 500km.  Some are not pitiful but none are particularly impressive.    

Edited February 17, 2020 by Jitar

[canopy]

Just now, Jitar said:

None of the cars in Post #3 are over 500km.  Some are not pitiful but none are particularly impressive.    

True. I thought my remark was prudent because the person made a claim in general terms rather than specific to Thailand when they stated: "They have not yet been able to solve the pitiful range of electric cars compared to ICE". Well if you look at the weak Thai lineup maybe a fair point, but for the global lineup respectable range EVs are broadly available.

 

[canopy]

2 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

The high tax on the car imports is what is killing the potential for the EV Market in Thailand. 

We've been through this before with computer hardware. In the early days if you wanted to buy any computer components you had to pay double or triple what it cost in the US for absolutely everything and the selection was very limited and low end. People had the same knee jerk claim that it was all due to the import tax, but others pointed out the import tax isn't that high and many of these things were actually made in Thai factories and there was no import tax. But you could go into any thai shop and they all sold the thai-made hard drive at the same inflated double pricing. And these should have been super cheap not only as they were made in Thailand, but the retailers just took one out of a big 50 pack with nothing more than a silver wrapper around it--no manuals, no cables, nothing. Meanwhile the same hard drive was shipped across the pacific ocean to the US, put in a big colorful retail box with cables and software, and newegg would deliver it to your doorstep for half the price without you investing any shoe leather going to a retail shop. Those were the bad days in Thailand. That's exactly where we are with EVs in Thailand today. And once again, the double pricing and limited selection is not the tax. It acts more like a protected monopoly.

 

[ftpjtm]

On 2/10/2020 at 7:21 AM, canopy said:

I am against government incentives--things should survive or die on their own. But I too wonder why can't the cost of EVs in Thailand be comparable to other countries? These prices are a rip off. Who wants to pay twice as much as people elsewhere for the same thing. It got me thinking, what if Tesla comes to Thailand because Tesla doesn't do dealerships. You buy direct from the Tesla web site. That could very well lead to excellent pricing in Thailand by cutting out the greedy Thai middlemen lining their pockets for no value add and raising the price of EVs above what the common man can afford. But alas, I have heard nothing forecast about Tesla coming to Thailand for any of their products. The EV market in Thailand seems lost in hopeless price gouging for the foreseeable future.

 

A few thoughts on this. 

 

I have read that the majority of revenues of Thanathorn Juangroongruangkit's Thai Summit Group come from the US factory, and that factory's largest customer is Tesla. Thai Summit makes the chassis for all Tesla models. 

 

Tesla now has opened their factory in China. I was at an MG dealer recently and was told that the electric MG is Chinese sourced, and despite this is one of the more reasonably priced electrics in Thailand, so the duties must be reasonable.

 

Based on that, I hope that Tesla will eventually be available in Thailand.

[madhav]

4 hours ago, canopy said:

True. I thought my remark was prudent because the person made a claim in general terms rather than specific to Thailand when they stated: "They have not yet been able to solve the pitiful range of electric cars compared to ICE". Well if you look at the weak Thai lineup maybe a fair point, but for the global lineup respectable range EVs are broadly available.

 

Apparently the future development will focus more on charge speed than excessive range. The whole ‘range anxiety’ issue will be a thing of the past when there are DC fast chargers in every gas station.

 

The latest tech right now allows for up to 350kw per hour charge speeds. So if you have a typical 50kw battery, (same in the Tesla model 3 base model) and you start charging at 20% and go till 80%, that is 30kw of charge needed. At maximum charge speed that would take only 5 minutes.
 

Most people are not comfortable driving for more than a few hours at a stretch, so taking a 5 min break every 3 hours gives you all you need.

[rvaviator]

It will be a long time before Thailand (and many many other countries in the world for that matter) have the electrical infrastructure in place to provide the energy needed to 'fast charge' even a fraction of the vehicles you see today pulling in at the filling stations ... Many people fail to grasp the energy density you have if fossil fuel.  Batteries are also a real issue - as fast charging does nothing for long life ...  True there are some very promising technologies (chemistries) being developed that 'should' enable high energy transfer without capacity fade in the battery....  Obviously after having got to grips with the electrical distribution infrastructure you need to generate the electricity in the first place.  The focus should be on mass transport (buses) to help reduce pollution in City's.         

 

[madhav]

4 hours ago, rvaviator said:

It will be a long time before Thailand (and many many other countries in the world for that matter) have the electrical infrastructure in place to provide the energy needed to 'fast charge' even a fraction of the vehicles you see today pulling in at the filling stations ... Many people fail to grasp the energy density you have if fossil fuel.  Batteries are also a real issue - as fast charging does nothing for long life ...  True there are some very promising technologies (chemistries) being developed that 'should' enable high energy transfer without capacity fade in the battery....  Obviously after having got to grips with the electrical distribution infrastructure you need to generate the electricity in the first place.  The focus should be on mass transport (buses) to help reduce pollution in City's.         

 

From my understanding based on the Existing implementation in other countries, the vast majority of people will not fast charge. They will slow charge at home or at work. The only time they will use the fast charge is if they are travelling long distance on a trip (which obviously doesn’t happen often for most). 

 

I read an article recently that the Thai power grid is up to the task, believe it or not they have plenty of surplus. 
 

Anyhow one thing we can be certain that people far more intelligent than you and I have already considered these kind of issues years ago and there are solutions in place. (Maybe not for Thailand though)

 

As for the batteries, the current data for Tesla batteries shows that they are designed to last 500,000 km. Degradation is less than 10% for the first 250,000km. Considering the latest model S long range model have a range in excess of 600km, nothing to worry about.
 

 

[transam]

16 hours ago, madhav said:

From my understanding based on the Existing implementation in other countries, the vast majority of people will not fast charge. They will slow charge at home or at work. The only time they will use the fast charge is if they are travelling long distance on a trip (which obviously doesn’t happen often for most). 

 

I read an article recently that the Thai power grid is up to the task, believe it or not they have plenty of surplus. 
 

Anyhow one thing we can be certain that people far more intelligent than you and I have already considered these kind of issues years ago and there are solutions in place. (Maybe not for Thailand though)

 

As for the batteries, the current data for Tesla batteries shows that they are designed to last 500,000 km. Degradation is less than 10% for the first 250,000km. Considering the latest model S long range model have a range in excess of 600km, nothing to worry about.
 

 

Depends on if you believe what they tell you, for me it is one of those things only "real" time and usage will tell....

[globerunner4]

Is it possible to register and insure an electric vehicle conversion on a car that's been previously registered in Thailand? Thanks

[CNXexpat]

On 2/12/2020 at 2:43 PM, HauptmannUK said:

I don't think its that easy....  8% tax on Thai assembled EV's. Tax nowhere near explains the difference.

Nope, you forgot a zero behind the 8. The tax on in Thailand assembled cars is 80%, for complete cars it depends if it´s an electro, hybrid or gasoil/diesel engine and which size, but it´s minimum 200% up to 280%. 

[Coremouse]

On 2/17/2020 at 10:06 AM, canopy said:

Pitiful? Maybe you are misinformed. Tesla's are doing 400, 500, and even 1000 km of range depending on model. And that's THIS YEAR. Future will just go higher and higher.

 

Baloney! Ever since the 1960's engine performance has been pathetic and weak. They make these puny little gutless engines and the manufacturers explains to us how sporty and powerful they are. Everyone is guilty of dumbing down their car performance from GM to Mercedes. I love good acceleration. I love good handling. It's useful and improves safety driving on Thai roads. Example: nothing worse than being forced to make a blind turn onto a road and boom, a car pops out and you've not got the acceleration to keep him from having to slam on the brakes to avoid a collision. I love what I see with many EVs in terms of performance and handling. Ridiculously fast and that's a very positive and useful attribute.

 

It's not that simple, non of the elon's cars could do 'even 1000km', that's with 1000lbs+ highly volatile ternary battery packed with best metal fuel and oxidizer together( when on fire nothing could extinguish it, it could literally combust dry ice ). I suspect 500km is the current sweetspot weight vs. energy capacity, as there're no electric jetliner for a reason. Lithium batteries are highly developed and under current principle every bit increase specific energy would equally sacriface safety. Only hope practical air-breathing battery could be available soon

 

And if a ev can do 500km it doesn't mean you'll be comfortable when <150km left, like how you'll stop play games when smartphone dip below 30% when charging options limited.

 

Also if do a simple calc swap all ICE cars to ev and they still doing same miles, then the charging capacity of cars would exceed 20%-30% of total electricity production( ~27% for Cal ), that means charging network as plenty as gas stations would simply not be possible without some cost and sacriface. With all ev peaking holiday or rush hour will be astronomically insane. 

 

I agree evs' emission benefit is great but currently natural gas electric plants, toxic chemicals for battery, panel, questionable recycling... not all environment friendly either. Many questions still have to be answered to optimize evs' environment footprint. ( not related to ev but Lithium production caused too much pollution to earth already, as the isotopes are key components to all hydrogen bombs. and pwr, and current iter, both US, Soviet, China produced lithium using large amount of mercury to longterm environmental damage )

 

Inside highly developed europe/north america ev with fast charge might work well, but otherwise heard many ev horror story. EVs are good as second car do not intend for long range driving, and they're advertised exactly that.