Colorado Switches To Honest COVID-19 Death Count, Death Toll Drops 31%

[Crazy Alex]

7 hours ago, geriatrickid said:

Another  deceitful and misleading post.

I do question as to why you continue to post intentionally misleading  claims.

You have taken one case and twisted it out of context to claim that colorado has been falsely attributing deaths to Covid 19.

 

 

Errors happen. It also happens the other way around too where people die of Covid 19 complications but the death is not attributed to Covid 19.

the charge against the   classification is coming form businesses who have a vested financial interest in minimizing the deaths: Long term care/Assisted Living /Nursing homes.

 

It is no secret that these business operations have been hit hard, with thousands of residents dying. Many died due to neglect caused by dehydration, malnutrition and general abandonment. The sector is facing considerable scrutiny and there are lawsuits being filed every week in respect to the  abuse of the residents. Workers were often poorly trained, not given appropriate PPE and forced to work at multiple residences, thereby spreading the infections. Workers who were ill, were forced to work or be terminated or see pay docked.

 

The care (sic) industry  is doing its utmost to minimize the attachment of Covid19 to the deaths because it does not wish to be held accountable.

 

Your attempt at manipulation isn't going to fool anyone with common sense.

 

 

 

 

Vague attack. What did I post that was misleading or incorrect, specifically?

[Crazy Alex]

3 hours ago, ThailandRyan said:

Thanks for the info. The dailymail to me is like the National enguirer or the Sun. 

Specifically, what did Daily Mail get incorrect?

[Berkshire]

6 minutes ago, Crazy Alex said:

Vague attack. What did I post that was misleading or incorrect, specifically?

You may not have been incorrect, but certainly misleading.  There is some overcounting going on....but also undercounting.  It's a wash basically.  As always, you're suggesting that there is some kind of organized, intentional overcounting because it supports your narrative.  But the truth is a combination of honest mistakes and lack of uniformity.  This article tries to cover both sides...

 

["Are they entirely accurate? No,” Spitz said. “Are people dying of it? Absolutely. Are people dying of other things and coronavirus is maybe getting credit? Yeah, probably.”]

[The doctor also told Fox News that he believes there are people who died of COVID-19, but weren’t counted. Determining a COVID-19 death is based on each doctor’s best clinical impression and that varies, he said.

“There’s no uniformity,” he said.]

 

https://fox6now.com/2020/05/16/questions-raised-over-accuracy-of-us-coronavirus-death-toll/

 

I don't normally cite Fox News as a reliable source, but this article appears to be pretty balanced.

 

[Mama Noodle]

29 minutes ago, Berkshire said:

As always, you're suggesting that there is some kind of organized, intentional overcounting because it supports your narrative. 

 

How is it a conspiracy theory when there are health officials literally saying that even if you have a clear alternate cause of death but test positive for covid, then thats a covid death?

[ThailandRyan]

*Removed post edited out*

 

I missed that Charlie Brown special.  When was it on TV, or was there another conspiracy to keep ole Chuck from discussing it with Lucy....so confused now because of Alex's constant fake news stories spun to the way he wants it...The world is round not flat, and Man did land on the moon.

 

https://www.denverpost.com/2020/05/17/coronavirus-colorado-new-cases-deaths-may-17/

 

 

[metisdead]

Some posts using trolling references to President Trump and the replies have been removed. 

[thaibeachlovers]

17 hours ago, BritManToo said:

I'd need a pile of dead bodies on my local village green before I became worried.

Now that would be a pandemic!

I have yet to know of anyone had it, or know anyone that knows someone had it, yet we all have to be ruined.

I'm not worried, and seems that few in town are worried. Apart from a few holdout businesses it's business as normal and hardly a mask to be seen.

[thaibeachlovers]

8 hours ago, geriatrickid said:

the charge against the   classification is coming form businesses who have a vested financial interest in minimizing the deaths: Long term care/Assisted Living /Nursing homes.

There's an industry where many managers need to be arrested, charged with causing harm to persons in their care and jailed, IMO and that's nothing to do with Corona. It's all about making money at the expense of the elderly and not much about care, despite the expensive ads.

 

However, death certificates are issued by Drs and are not dependent on what the aged care industry wants. I don't think Drs can be forced to write death certs in a particular way, and if there was pressure to do so would not be keeping quiet about it.

[Tie Dye Samurai]

9 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I have yet to know of anyone had it, or know anyone that knows someone had it, yet we all have to be ruined.

I'm not worried, and seems that few in town are worried. Apart from a few holdout businesses it's business as normal and hardly a mask to be seen.

Somebody I worked with has died from it and one of my best friends in Chicago and his Thai wife both currently have it and they had to send their 10 year old daughter to stay with his Mom...not trying to one up you, I am sincerely trying to show you the other side of the coin.

[thaibeachlovers]

16 minutes ago, Tie Dye Samurai said:

Somebody I worked with has died from it and one of my best friends in Chicago and his Thai wife both currently have it and they had to send their 10 year old daughter to stay with his Mom...not trying to one up you, I am sincerely trying to show you the other side of the coin.

Either it is real and people are really dying of it, or it a giant cruel hoax. I can't believe the latter so yes, people are dying of it. What I and others are saying is that it's happening far away so why is EVERYONE being ruined?

I've said all along isolate the vulnerable and allow herd immunity to occur, but what do I know?

Edited May 18, 2020 by thaibeachlovers

[JackThompson]

41 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

...

However, death certificates are issued by Drs and are not dependent on what the aged care industry wants. I don't think Drs can be forced to write death certs in a particular way, and if there was pressure to do so would not be keeping quiet about it.

They cannot "not" be quiet, after putting their name on something which makes them liable; they become "made men" of a sort.  There was an expose where funeral-directors admitted the fraud (full audio recordings) - not sure I could link to it, though, as the MSM Billionaires won't touch it, so "doesn't count" as real.

Edited May 18, 2020 by JackThompson

[ThailandRyan]

2 hours ago, Crazy Alex said:

Specifically, what did Daily Mail get incorrect?

You chose to only quote what fit your agenda Alex.. read the Denver post article and then what you posted and then see how exactly they screen how the numbers are actually classified.  No conspiracy 

[yuyiinthesky]

10 hours ago, theonetrueaussie said:

Actually Corona is amazing...It has completely cured all pneumonia and flu...the number of people that have died from these are virtually none lately and it has also cured suicide...yup you heard it no more suicide deaths as they were killed by covid instead....

... and tuberculosis too. A miracle!

 

I would love to see the covid counters everywhere being accompanied by Pneumonia, influenza, TB, Malaria, dengue etc counters. But that is not happening, as in most, if not all, countries Covid 19 would look like a loser.

 

 

[Rimmer]

Off topic posts and replies removed, Please stop trying to drag Mr Trump into every topic.

[rabas]

18 hours ago, ChouDoufu said:

i'm so confused!

 

when the virus was in wuhan, it was the zombie apocalypse!  they were dropping dead in the streets, being shoved alive into crematoriums.  china was lying, we knew it, cause their numbers were low.  we counted cell phone subscriptions and urn deliveries and measured sulfer dioxide emissions.  okay!  china lied!  billions died!

 

but now when the virus is here amongst us, it's just the flu, bro!  we're lying, cause, well, our numbers are high.  and for reasons.

Sure are.  Actual recorded case fatality rates went up after the virus left China, even though China corrected its deaths upward, what, twice?  Before the West's first big dose of SARS2, the Internet was awash with no problem just a flu, don't worry about masks (China wants them). But now we know better, it's a very serious disease. To be fair, several Wuhan doctors did try to warn about the disease's seriousness. Where did that get them? Like, where are they now? 

Edited May 18, 2020 by rabas

[yuyiinthesky]

8 hours ago, Tie Dye Samurai said:

what Crazy Alex is trying to gloss over here is this....whether you died explicitly from Covid-19 or the virus just had a hand in some of the deaths...people still died and Covid had a hand in it.

Yeah right, you die from a car accident, or cancer, or whatever, and because your dead body tests positive for virus presence then “Covid had a hand in it”. Makes sense.

[Walker88]

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest Dr Fauci knows more about viruses, epidemiology, pathology and statistics that the OP or any of those supporting the OP's post. If my suggestion or assumption is incorrect, go ahead and post your credentials and accept my apology.

 

Despite that famous Mark Twain quip, statistics do reveal important trends. There is a statistically normal rate of death in any population over a given period. Models are based on them. Models are adjusted for population size. Insurance companies use such models to set premium levels. One can be sure insurers recognize the trend.

 

When the number of deaths runs way above trend, that represents an 'outlier', and scientists and statisticians will look into it to see what might have been causing it. They will look at coroner reports and hospital records to see what was determined or listed as the cause of death. If it is pneumonia or some other ailment strongly linked to CV-19, then that raises a red flag. These deaths are not necessarily added to the CV-19 total, but if the body has yet to be interred, blood samples can be taken to see if CV-19 is present. Remember that these are deaths above trend, or 'outliers' using the term from statistics.

 

Dr Fauci, when he makes a statement that he believes total CV-19 deaths are higher than reported, he is falling back on both his expertise as an epidemiologist and one comfortable with statistics. Still, the 'outlier' deaths, even those whose cause per the death certificate was pneumonia or other maladies associated with CV-19, are not added to the total. Another problem has been the scarcity of reliable tests, as the US has only administered 11.5 million total tests as of this writing.

 

It is a fact that the death rate in the US for 2020 is running approximately 150,000 above the norm, though only 90,000 so far have been added to the CV-19 total. "Something" has caused that rate to run way above trend. For those who died, and for their loved ones, the argument as to the cause makes precious little difference. They're dead, and they are dying at rates far in excess of death rates one would expect using the models that even insurance companies use in the actuarial calculations. To what do those arguing against the CV-19 totals attribute these far above normal rate deaths?

 

Go ahead and believe whatever you wish. It makes no difference. Denying the danger of CV-19, however, would be most unwise for anyone who is obese, a smoker, has Type II diabetes, is older than 60, has high blood pressure, has an underlying condition like COPD, asthma or emphysema, or just has bad luck.

 

 

Edited May 18, 2020 by Walker88
add

[Odysseus123]

21 minutes ago, Walker88 said:

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest Dr Fauci knows more about viruses, epidemiology, pathology and statistics that the OP or any of those supporting the OP's post. If my suggestion or assumption is incorrect, go ahead and post your credentials and accept my apology.

I don't think that you need to go out on "much of a limb" on this one...an intelligent,well written post.

Edited May 18, 2020 by Odysseus123

[Walker88]

10 minutes ago, Walker88 said:

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest Dr Fauci knows more about viruses, epidemiology, pathology and statistics that the OP or any of those supporting the OP's post. If my suggestion or assumption is incorrect, go ahead and post your credentials and accept my apology.

 

Despite that famous Mark Twain quip, statistics do reveal important trends. There is a statistically normal rate of death in any population over a given period. Models are based on them. Models are adjusted for population size. Insurance companies use such models to set premium levels. One can be sure insurers recognize the trend.

 

When the number of deaths runs way above trend, that represents an 'outlier', and scientists and statisticians will look into it to see what might have been causing it. They will look at coroner reports and hospital records to see what was determined or listed as the cause of death. If it is pneumonia or some other ailment strongly linked to CV-19, then that raises a red flag. These deaths are not necessarily added to the CV-19 total, but if the body has yet to be interred, blood samples can be taken to see if CV-19 is present. Remember that these are deaths above trend, or 'outliers' using the term from statistics.

 

Dr Fauci, when he makes a statement that he believes total CV-19 deaths are higher than reported, he is falling back on both his expertise as an epidemiologist and one comfortable with statistics. Still, the 'outlier' deaths, even those whose cause per the death certificate was pneumonia or other maladies associated with CV-19, are not added to the total. Another problem has been the scarcity of reliable tests, as the US has only administered 11.5 million total tests as of this writing.

 

It is a fact that the death rate in the US for 2020 is running approximately 150,000 above the norm, though only 90,000 so far have been added to the CV-19 total. "Something" has caused that rate to run way above trend. For those who died, and for their loved ones, the argument as to the cause makes precious little difference. They're dead, and they are dying at rates far in excess of death rates one would expect using the models that even insurance companies use in the actuarial calculations. To what do those arguing against the CV-19 totals attribute these far above normal rate deaths?

 

Go ahead and believe whatever you wish. It makes no difference. Denying the danger of CV-19, however, would be most unwise for anyone who is obese, a smoker, has Type II diabetes, is older than 60, has high blood pressure, has an underlying condition like COPD, asthma or emphysema, or just has bad luck.

 

 

You can plot deaths over time, adjust for population size, average age of the populace, etc. That is the death rate trend.

 

Suddenly, the death rate jumps way above trend. Stats are run to see if the rate is 'statistically significant'. If it meets the criteria of being significant, it is termed an 'outlier'. SOMETHING must be behind the surge.

 

It is that reason---based on statistical models---that suggest CV-19 is taking a much higher toll than what has been directly attributed to it.

 

Those who disagree can offer an alternative opinion as to why the death rate is running way above the norm. No doubt insurance companies would welcome the answer, as rates far in excess of trend get their attention.

[Walker88]

Here's an example from Bergamo, Italy, since Italy has already analyzed and published data.

 

In March 2019 the deaths per 1000 people in Bergamo was 14.3

 

In March 2020 the deaths per 1000 people in Bergamo was 154.4

 

Clearly 'something' jacked up the death rate in 2020.

 

That 10-fold increase certainly fits the term 'outlier'. The US, including Colorado, will analyze and publish death rates in due time. One might expect something similar.

 

 

Edited May 18, 2020 by Walker88
add

[Walker88]

Here are some numbers based on early data:

 

Death rate levels above the norm (early March 2020 to early April 2020):

New York City: +225%

New Jersey: +72%

ALL NY: +42%

Michigan: +21%

Mass: +20%

Colorado: +16%

 

Paris: +100%

 

Anything +/- 2% would be statistically significant and an 'outlier'.

Edited May 18, 2020 by Walker88

[Crazy Alex]

15 hours ago, Slip said:

Not only are his posts deceitful and misleading 9 times out of 10, but he is abusing the corona virus sub-forum to make politically partisan and propagandic posts on a regular basis because they would not be allowed in general topics. 

No, you're wrong. I made no mention of politics nor political parties. This is an issue of competence and morals. Dodging the topic to instead make a personal attack is of no merit whatsoever.

[Crazy Alex]

 

8 hours ago, yuyiinthesky said:

Yeah right, you die from a car accident, or cancer, or whatever, and because your dead body tests positive for virus presence then “Covid had a hand in it”. Makes sense.

I suppose these people would then be fine with writing up a car accident death as due to diabetes if the driver was diabetic. Their logic makes no sense whatsoever.

 

That is why we're seeing subject changes and personal attacks instead of reasoned arguments on the actual topic. It speaks VOLUMES.

[ThailandRyan]

6 minutes ago, Crazy Alex said:

 

I suppose these people would then be fine with writing up a car accident death as due to diabetes if the driver was diabetic. Their logic makes no sense whatsoever.

 

That is why we're seeing subject changes and personal attacks instead of reasoned arguments on the actual topic. It speaks VOLUMES.

Yes Diabetic dies from diabetes incident leading to car accident which claims life.....figure it out Alex.  Just because it was an accident there was a precipitating factor which would lead to that death.  Diabetic forgot to eat a full meal after taking medication, Blood sugars plummeted while driving and the driver became comatose and crashed, killing themselves.  So if someone has Covid, and had a medical issue because of this, then crashed and died, of course Covid was the cause of death because it led to the incident.  Take a heart attack for example.  Your driving and have an MI, you loose control of the car, the car hits a tree, you die, the accident may have killed you, but it was the precipitating MI that led to the death...are you getting it know..... 

Edited May 18, 2020 by ThailandRyan

[Crazy Alex]

11 hours ago, ThailandRyan said:

*Removed post edited out*

 

I missed that Charlie Brown special.  When was it on TV, or was there another conspiracy to keep ole Chuck from discussing it with Lucy....so confused now because of Alex's constant fake news stories spun to the way he wants it...The world is round not flat, and Man did land on the moon.

 

https://www.denverpost.com/2020/05/17/coronavirus-colorado-new-cases-deaths-may-17/

 

 

Specifically, what have posted that is fake? Simply making an accusation is not an argument nor a rebuttal. Charlie Brown has nothing to do with this. The world is round and man has been on the moon. The topic is Colorado changing from a BS way to count virus deaths to a rational way. Why did they use the BS way to begin with? And why have they changed it?

[Crazy Alex]

2 minutes ago, ThailandRyan said:

Yes Diabetic dies from diabetes incident leading to car accident which claims life.....figure it out Alex.  Just because it was an accident there was a precipitating factor which would lead to that death.  Diabetic forgot to eat a full meal after taking medication, Blood sugars plummeted while driving and the driver became comatose and crashed, killing themselves.  So if someone has Covid, and had a medical issue because of this, then crashed and died, of course Covid was the cause of death because it led to the incident.  Take a heart attack for example.  Your driving and have an MI, you loose control of the car, the car hits a tree, you die, the accident may have killed you, but it was the precipitating MI that led to the death...are you getting it know..... 

In the cases you've described, they would still be listed as traffic accidents. And if you're correct, why has the state of Colorado ceased counting these deaths as COVID-19 deaths? I shall now assume you prefer the initial way of doing it, even though it's not been done that way before.

 

But let's be more clear about it. Let's take your diabetes scenario. Should the cause of death be a traffic accident? Or diabetes?

[Crazy Alex]

8 hours ago, Walker88 said:

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest Dr Fauci knows more about viruses, epidemiology, pathology and statistics that the OP or any of those supporting the OP's post. If my suggestion or assumption is incorrect, go ahead and post your credentials and accept my apology.

 

Despite that famous Mark Twain quip, statistics do reveal important trends. There is a statistically normal rate of death in any population over a given period. Models are based on them. Models are adjusted for population size. Insurance companies use such models to set premium levels. One can be sure insurers recognize the trend.

 

When the number of deaths runs way above trend, that represents an 'outlier', and scientists and statisticians will look into it to see what might have been causing it. They will look at coroner reports and hospital records to see what was determined or listed as the cause of death. If it is pneumonia or some other ailment strongly linked to CV-19, then that raises a red flag. These deaths are not necessarily added to the CV-19 total, but if the body has yet to be interred, blood samples can be taken to see if CV-19 is present. Remember that these are deaths above trend, or 'outliers' using the term from statistics.

 

Dr Fauci, when he makes a statement that he believes total CV-19 deaths are higher than reported, he is falling back on both his expertise as an epidemiologist and one comfortable with statistics. Still, the 'outlier' deaths, even those whose cause per the death certificate was pneumonia or other maladies associated with CV-19, are not added to the total. Another problem has been the scarcity of reliable tests, as the US has only administered 11.5 million total tests as of this writing.

 

It is a fact that the death rate in the US for 2020 is running approximately 150,000 above the norm, though only 90,000 so far have been added to the CV-19 total. "Something" has caused that rate to run way above trend. For those who died, and for their loved ones, the argument as to the cause makes precious little difference. They're dead, and they are dying at rates far in excess of death rates one would expect using the models that even insurance companies use in the actuarial calculations. To what do those arguing against the CV-19 totals attribute these far above normal rate deaths?

 

Go ahead and believe whatever you wish. It makes no difference. Denying the danger of CV-19, however, would be most unwise for anyone who is obese, a smoker, has Type II diabetes, is older than 60, has high blood pressure, has an underlying condition like COPD, asthma or emphysema, or just has bad luck.

 

 

Dr. Fauci and/or Mark Twain have nothing to do with this topic.

[ThailandRyan]

3 minutes ago, Crazy Alex said:

Specifically, what have posted that is fake? Simply making an accusation is not an argument nor a rebuttal. Charlie Brown has nothing to do with this. The world is round and man has been on the moon. The topic is Colorado changing from a BS way to count virus deaths to a rational way. Why did they use the BS way to begin with? And why have they changed it?

Read the whole article Alex, as well as the Denver post article, all they changed was certain reporting procedures.  Look at Thailand new PUI criteria, it changes all the time.  Read Dr. Fauci's reports, don't limit yourself because you find something that meets what you believe.  Stop twisting the issues.

[Crazy Alex]

1 minute ago, ThailandRyan said:

Read the whole article Alex, as well as the Denver post article, all they changed was certain reporting procedures.  Look at Thailand new PUI criteria, it changes all the time.  Read Dr. Fauci's reports, don't limit yourself because you find something that meets what you believe.  Stop twisting the issues.

I see. So you are here trying to drag Thailand criteria into a story about Colorado changing how they count virus deaths, but it's me who's twisting the issues? And specifically, which of "Dr. Fauci's reports" do you think rationalizes counting deaths by other causes as COVID-19 deaths?

[yuyiinthesky]

Meanwhile I stumbled upon the answer as to which party is responsible for Covid-19 in the US:
 

Quote

The virus was caused or exacerbated by the political party I disfavor.

If persons in the party I favored were listened to, this would not have been as big a crisis.

The virus spread so rapidly because of the actions of the party I disfavor.

The party I favor helped stem the tide and saved lives.

The crisis would have ended sooner, and more lives would have been saved, if the people in the party I hate were ignored.

Science saved us!

Source: https://wmbriggs.com/post/30833/ (Warning, lockdown fans better don't follow the link, For open minds, it is quite interesting)

There it is, and I assume everybody can agree with this. The ultimate truth ????

Back to the topic of this thread, I think it is good if Colorado corrects the way it counts. 
I don't understand why someone can see something bad in it - unless it must be bad because you don't like the messenger who told you about it, right?