Teaching Tones!

[BeccsLovesThailand]

Hi guys

 

I live in the uk and usually get over to Thailand for a couple of times a year, its the best I can do right now!

 

So I’ve been teaching myself Thai. I started with a teacher on preply a year ago but he wasnt very good so I stopped and have just recently started again with a lady who you can tell has much more teaching experience.

 

However, Ive come across an issue with tones.

 

The book we are using shows the english and the thai next to it (see attached clip). I am really confused because if you look at the words nôon, châi and mâi, they are all falling tone but on the thai script, it uses the low tone symbol ่ i.e. โน่น ใช่ ไม่ . Yet whenever they are voiced, they are always voiced falling tone. I have tried to explain my confusion to my teacher but she doesn’t understand.

 

To make things even worse, she is pronouncing nôon as noon with rising tone whilst I have always so far heard it pronounced on youtube as nôon.

 

And then to take things further, there are words such as à-rai (what?) which have a low tone according to the english spelling and how I have heard people say them but in the thai script, the word is mid tone.

 

What is going on? Im starting to get confused, I thought I had this down pat until I started thai lessons again!

 

Can anyone help me?

[n00dle]

Personally, I just make sure I use tones, and if corrected adjust the next time.

 

Over time it becomes automatic and you start getting it right.

 

 

[timendres]

10 minutes ago, BeccsLovesThailand said:

The book we are using shows the english and the thai next to it (see attached clip). I am really confused because if you look at the words nôon, châi and mâi, they are all falling tone but on the thai script, it uses the low tone symbol ่ i.e. โน่น ใช่ ไม่ . Yet whenever they are voiced, they are always voiced falling tone. I have tried to explain my confusion to my teacher but she doesn’t understand.

The "low tone symbol", as you refer to it, is not absolutely used for the purpose of setting a low tone. The purpose of the symbol also depends on the level of the consonants involved in the word. In other words, in the case of โน่น, since the น is already a low tone, it would not make sense to add ่ to make it a low tone. So in that case the ่ is used to change the tone to falling.

[EricTh]

I can understand why your teacher is confused, I am also confused what you are trying to ask.

 

 

[Boomer6969]

I have no idea what tones are. Serious. Hear/read about it but don't hear them. So forget about learning Thai. Could someone tell me where to look for a start? You can PM if you want to help.

Edited May 17, 2020 by Boomer6969

[kokesaat]

Beccs, having been there/done that, I'd suggest investing in a book like the Benjawan Poomsan-Becker series....and try to concentrate on a single tone class at a time.  For whatever reason, I started with the high class consonants.  When I broke the code on those consonants, I found it easier to go to the other classes.  When you find a teacher insist on pounding the table when you make mistakes on tones.  They usually don't like doing that, but it worked for me.

Don't let anyone tell you that tones are too difficult to learn.   Young, old, hearing aids, don't matter.  If you work on it, you'll finally break the code.....and be very happy to have done so.

Good luck.

[Gene1960]

Try to ask your teacher to teach you the Low, Middle and High classes and open and closes Syllables. 
After that it’s became clear. 

[EricTh]

9 hours ago, kokesaat said:

Beccs, having been there/done that, I'd suggest investing in a book like the Benjawan Poomsan-Becker series....and try to concentrate on a single tone class at a time.  For whatever reason, I started with the high class consonants.  When I broke the code on those consonants, I found it easier to go to the other classes.  When you find a teacher insist on pounding the table when you make mistakes on tones.  They usually don't like doing that, but it worked for me.

Don't let anyone tell you that tones are too difficult to learn.   Young, old, hearing aids, don't matter.  If you work on it, you'll finally break the code.....and be very happy to have done so.

Good luck.

 

You're blessed to have a good teacher. I've seen many students still making wrong tones and pronunciation after 1 year of studying Thai.

 

Most teachers don't correct the wrong tones or else they won't have time to learn the vocab and grammar.

 

 

 

Edited May 18, 2020 by EricTh

[ColeBOzbourne]

15 hours ago, BeccsLovesThailand said:

I am really confused because if you look at the words nôon, châi and mâi, they are all falling tone but on the thai script, it uses the low tone symbol ่ i.e. โน่น ใช่ ไม่ . Yet whenever they are voiced, they are always voiced falling tone.

That symbol is low tone for middle and high consonants only. However, for low consonants that symbol does mean falling tone. The words in your three examples all start with low consonants, so falling tone would be correct.

[1FinickyOne]

I am surely not a linguist and though I am pretty conversational, I have no idea which tone any words are... they just sound different to me... but I am trying to communicate and speak the language, not study it... that said, I have been told often that my tones are quite good.. 

 

but, whatever works for you... we all learn differently. I am not as studious as you are, but maybe more practical... 

[ColeBOzbourne]

15 hours ago, BeccsLovesThailand said:

And then to take things further, there are words such as à-rai (what?) which have a low tone according to the english spelling and how I have heard people say them but in the thai script, the word is mid tone.

à-rai has two syllables. The first syllable is low tone, the second is middle tone, just as you have written it. Listening to Thais speak in order to identify tone is not always easy. They speak quickly and sometimes they change the tone in such a subtle way that the farang ear cannot pick up on it accurately, but the Thai ear can.

[katana]

As already stated, the Mai Ek symbol, ', is not a low tone symbol, but only makes the syllable low tone when used with a middle or high class consonant. With the low class consonant น which you use, it will give a falling tone under the tone rules.

Edited May 18, 2020 by katana

[tgeezer]

I hope that you know the Thai characters ตัวหนังสือ because it enables you to forget English phonetics which I think are useful only as an aid to memory when learning ก ไก่ ข ไข่ 

Buy some primary school books and use them with your teacher,  you will both enjoy it.  You will still have questions like why อะไร when it seems that อไร would do?  I would like to know the answer to that too. 
. The base-tones of กอ and ขอ are dictated by their class. ก is mid class so common tone, ข is high class so tone four. (Rising) When a tone mark (ไม้วรรณยุต) is used it overrides the base-tone.  So ไก่ is tone one as is ไข่ 
Low class consonants have common base-tone but the tone marks when used with low class consonants indicate the next tone up so, ไม้เอก อ่ indicates tone two(falling) ไม้โท อ้ ค่อ indicates tone three (high) . 

I hope that this conforms to what you already know and provides background for the answers already given. โน่น ไม่ ใช่ etc. Low class consonants where ไม้เอก indicates tone two. 
The answer to why อะ is tone one involves what Thai calls live and dead words. They are explained in the Royal Institute Dictionary under the entry คำ -คำตาย คำเป็น 

Briefly อะ is a dead word คำตาย because it has a short vowel without a closing consonant, a dead word beginning with a high or mid consonant is tone one.  
There is more.... 

 

 

[Oxx]

OP, you need to start learning the language more systematically, learning consonant classes, tone rules, and common irregularities.  You might consider having a look at this online reading course to get you started.  (It's free.)

 

http://thai-notes.com/reading/index.shtml

 

And I think every learner should have a copy of this book:

 

https://thailand.kinokuniya.com/bw/9780415510349

[pineapple01]

Please dont bother. ferangs speaking Thai is like Chalk on a Black Board to the ear. Plus they are mainly creepy bores at best.

[ColeBOzbourne]

4 hours ago, pineapple01 said:

Please dont bother. ferangs speaking Thai is like Chalk on a Black Board to the ear. Plus they are mainly creepy bores at best.

You might consider not bothering to write in English for the exact same reasons. Hopefully your command of spoken English is not so pitiful.

[tgeezer]

Are we to assume that we shouldn't not look forward to a contribution from pineapple01 in the future? 

[pineapple01]

11 minutes ago, tgeezer said:

Are we to assume that we shouldn't not look forward to a contribution from pineapple01 in the future? 

I could reply in German, my native language just to annoy the pedantic.

[tgeezer]

Will moderators accept languages other than Thai and English on this forum? 

Edited May 19, 2020 by tgeezer

[meechai]

On 5/17/2020 at 4:45 PM, kenk24 said:

I am surely not a linguist and though I am pretty conversational, I have no idea which tone any words are... they just sound different to me... but I am trying to communicate and speak the language, not study it... that said, I have been told often that my tones are quite good.. 

 

but, whatever works for you... we all learn differently. I am not as studious as you are, but maybe more practical... 

The truth is this is how Thai Children learn to speak.

 

They are not taught tones they are just taught the words & the words sound different....similar yes but different

 

[kokesaat]

If you're serious about learning Thai, don't listen to the naysayers.  You can learn to speak all you like, but if you don't learn tones, you're going to be like so many barstool speakers who murder the language and complain when they're misunderstood.

I'd follow the advice of the experts like tgeezer....learn to read.  You can go slow with a primer like Maani.....learn to read without learning the alphabet.  As you advance through the very early lessons, tell your Thai teacher to violate all inclinations of being too nice (to the student) and slam her/his hand on the microphone when you make mistakes in pronunciation.  Meditate on those Becker (or suitible substitute) books.  Focus on a single class of tones rather than the whole picture.  As you get a handle on a single class of tones, tell your teacher to be relentless in correcting your mistakes.  If your teacher isn't up to the task, change teachers.  Commit yourself to at least an hour or two or three a day of practicing each lesson.  Read the lesson with your teacher, listen to the free mp3 audio, practice writing each lesson several times before going to the next.  

If you stick with it, you'll be able to read, write, and speak with clarity.  From there, you're level of fluency will largely depend on your vocabulary.  

If you need incentive, here's one thing that drove me:  After I was able to read and understand lesson one of Maani, I told myself I could 'read' Thai. As I got through further lessons, I started to tell myself that I knew more Thai than xx% of the expat population (make a number up to be your pat in the back).  As you move along, those numbers will go up.  That's your trophy.

Stick with it.  

[kokesaat]

A follow up to my previous post.  If you want to pronounce correctly, you're going to have to get in your teacher's face.  Up close.  Watch how his/her mouth pronounces consonants and vowels.  You can't do that in a classroom, but you can one-on-one or online, if you're teacher is willing.  

As you progress, when you make a mistake, don't have the teacher correct your mistake.....instead, another slam on the desk/microphone to tell you to self-correct.  

Finally, be prepared for somme god-awful headaches as you advance through the tones...thinking you got it right only to find out you're wrong.  

It can be done.

[tgeezer]

Kokesaat, You flatter me but I won't object because in the land of the blind the one eyed man is king One thing that I can see is that this site is difficult to use because the page is constantly reformatting  making it likely that one will click on an advertisement in the 'dancing' presentation. I used to have the Thaivisa app. But that was hopeless, probably because whatever it cost to maintain didn't return sufficient revenue. Does the app work now?  A better site for learning Thai is most definitely Thai-language.com. 
However I digress.  
I do recommend learning the Thai characters and from a children's book.  
I remember ก เอ๋ย ก ไก่ ออกไปหากินเขี่ยใต้ดิน หานอนกับแมลง I can't remember the rest but the point is if you can't understand that baby talk, can you understand Thai. In that one letter out of forty four letters In the language a student's vocabulary has increased by seven useful words, also a little rhyming and comprehension skill which in my view are fundamental aspect of any language. Also on a barstool you wouldn't believe how having something in common with native speakers increases enjoyment and encourages people to help one learn. 

[Puccini]

On 5/19/2020 at 2:22 AM, pineapple01 said:

Please dont bother. ferangs speaking Thai is like Chalk on a Black Board to the ear. Plus they are mainly creepy bores at best.

What is a ferang? How is it written in Thai?

[Maestro]

On 5/19/2020 at 8:36 AM, tgeezer said:

Will moderators accept languages other than Thai and English on this forum? 

 

No, of course not.

[EricTh]

I find it funny that some people create just one post as a 'new' member and then disappear without replying.

[CrunchWrapSupreme]

The wife and I were just discussing this evening:

 

Khao ข่าว (falling) = news

Khao ขาว (flat) = white

Khao ข้าว (rising) = rice

 

It's funny, I always heard the rising tone in rice and assumed it was due to the context. It was in sentences like "I want to kin khao!" (eat rice) or "mai mi khao!" (I don't have rice), somebody always pleading for rice. I didn't realize the tone was actually defining the word. Perhaps it ended up with this tone for this reason, whenever the Thais talk about rice, they usually want some.

Edited May 27, 2020 by CrunchWrapSupreme

[NorthernRyland]

18 minutes ago, CrunchWrapSupreme said:

The wife and I were just discussing this evening:

 

Khao ข่าว (falling) = news

Khao ขาว (flat) = white

Khao ข้าว (rising) = rice

 

It's funny, I always heard the rising tone in rice and assumed it was due to the context. It was in sentences like "I want to kin khao!" (eat rice) or "mai mi khao!" (I don't have rice), somebody always pleading for rice. I didn't realize the tone was actually defining the word. Perhaps it ended up with this tone for this reason, whenever the Thais talk about rice, they usually want some.

I was in Taco Bell last summer (Colorado) and the "Crunchwrap Supreme" is off the menu (along with another favorite). Seeing your profile brings back good memories of better days.

[Oxx]

8 hours ago, CrunchWrapSupreme said:

Khao ข่าว (falling) = news

Khao ขาว (flat) = white

Khao ข้าว (rising) = rice

 

Somehow you've managed to get the tones for every single one of those words wrong.  They are respectively:  low, rising, falling.

[NorthernRyland]

7 hours ago, Oxx said:

 

Somehow you've managed to get the tones for every single one of those words wrong.  They are respectively:  low, rising, falling.

I caught that also. ข่าว, ขาว, ข้าว are one of the canonical examples of tones in Thai so I would expect these to be correct.