How You Went from Faith to Unbelief in God

[ExpatOilWorker]

The OP sound like an religious alcoholic who can't let go. He needs just one more vodka, I mean verse. Just one more rum, I mean ryhm. Just one more porter, I mean prayer.  Just one more time on the p!ss, I mean visit the priest. 

Don't worry old friend.  You have come to the right place, you are among fellow pagans. Welcome to Thailand.

[nausea]

Like I say, it's a necessity not a choice, just to survive in this world, darwinian. 

[Zenwind]

I was raised in an evangelical Protestant family, good people who acted ethically and taught me to act decently.  But I never bought into their theology.  As a little kid in Sunday School, I had (human) heroes from the Old Testament like Moses, Caleb, Gideon, David and Elijah, but I was skeptical of their magical adventures.  And I never understood the fascination with Jesus or how anyone could believe the stories about him.  Walking on water?  Come on.  Resurrection back to life after being dead a day and two nights?  Growing up on a farm, I knew the realities of death and decay in warm weather.  I just could not believe any of these supernatural tales.  And this “scapegoat” sacrifice on the cross?  That was from earlier primitive religious traditions and made no sense at all to me. 

 

Here is a short account of my thinking that I was going to die in combat in Vietnam while still being a non-believer:

https://zenwind.blogspot.com/2013/03/atheist-in-foxhole_10.html

.

[xylophone]

19 minutes ago, allanos said:

There is no true, historical evidence that this man ever existed.  The name Jesus was prevalent 2000 years ago, and there were many of them evangelising their own beliefs around the same time. 

I have watched the film, "The man from Earth" a few times and there is an interesting part in it about 80% of the way through the movie where the man in question is asked about Jesus, and actually explains that he was Jesus way back then.

 

I then wondered what was coming next, and his description of Jesus at the time was similar to what many folks have posted on here, that he was just an ordinary man who was perhaps a bit of healer and also goes on to explain a path to Buddhism and how it taught this Jesus certain things.

 

In summary, not that I can recall too much at the moment, he dismisses many of the commonly held beliefs and stories and in my opinion put forward some sensible comments as to the existence of a man who was no more than that, man.

 

PS. I can highly recommend the movie although it starts off a little slow, and it is well worth watching it through, because at the end there is a surprising twist.

[nausea]

50 minutes ago, Walker88 said:

This is where I disagree. We are capable of enjoying existence in what we experience and by enjoying other creatures who share time and space with us. THAT is its meaning, and frankly, it's a good enough reason for existence.

 

From the beginning of time to my birth I didn't exist. I was maybe two years into existence before I was even aware I existed. The time I was "unaware" didn't bother me a lick, so the eternity coming when I will no longer exist will bother me as little. I'm in no hurry to get back to non-existence, but until it comes I'm going to enjoy this ride.

In retrospect? It boils down to two things - does time exist as a concrete thing, set in time so to speak, or is it all just an illusion. Certainly, the things my ancestors did mean little now, they might've been the most bad assed humans that ever existed, we all have these stories, but in reality we live in the here and now. We are the stories for future generations. 

[Trentham]

For me religion is about psychology. Mankind crawled out of the trees and learned to think. Realising we are going to die and knowing the terror of that we invented religion that promised eternal life. It is not just the Christians/Muslims/Jews who did so. Primitive tribes all over the world invented their escape of the terror of death. I got over the fear probably because all the conditions my priest was putting on me seemed worse than eternal nothingness [or was it Hell fire?]

[VocalNeal]

^ See, I think they invented religion to make the pain and fear bearable and to escape the terror of life.

[Enoon]

 

Science.

 

The first chapter of human consciousness, Religion, is drawing to a close.

 

Religion includes what are often defined as the "Primitive" beliefs (eg animism, fetish worship) that existed for thousands of years before those that arrived in the period of ancient "Civilisation".  They continue to exist, but have largely been supplanted or integrated into the religions developed during the growth of Civilisation. 

 

Primitive beliefs are still evident in Thailand and still prevalent among "intellectually isolated" communities elsewhere. 

 

They can still be seen in the most sophisticated of modern societies, but are not recognised as such.

 

The next chapter, Science, began with fixed settlements and "Civilisation", grew in the Classical Period, and started to blossom during the mid/late Medieval period.

 

The great, growing struggle, overawing all others but frequently distracted from, during the last 500 years or so, has been between Science and Religion.

 

No sign of it ending just yet.

 

 

 

Edited June 14, 2020 by Enoon

[RocketDog]

Rather than use my reply to ridicule religion/god, I will address the question the OP asked.

 

I was raised a catholic with the option to stop going to church when I was 16. I went until then and stopped entirely.

I continued to unthinkingly believe in god in my teens and then started actually studying religion in my 20's. From then until my early forties I told people that I was against organized religion but believed in god. Then after few years I disclaimed god but represented myself as spiritual, whatever that means.

 

After that I begin to question the very idea of a supernatural being/force of any kind, read Christopher Hitchens and other authors and fully recognized how harmful religion and belief in an afterlife truly is. Finally, I embraced the Occam's Razor approach: There is no reason for the existence of a god in the greater scheme of things, therefore it's entirely likely that such an entity simply doesn't exist.

 

Now, I can add that if there is such a being, he is vicious, hateful, vengeful, and malicious and should be rejected as a scourge on humanity, not a savior. Organized religion is likewise only a for-profit industry preying on the gullible and weak and selling nothing but deception. As Hitchens would say: god is not great and religion spoils everything.

 

The terms 'agnostic' and 'atheistic' are simply useless. Why do we not have words for people who like soup and those who don't? It is ludicrous to waste perfectly good groups of letters describing nonsense things that have no basis in reality and no utility whatsoever in daily life. I do however believe in weoiujg;adihfpasdf and aplsjfpowuapoiuer and enjoy speaking to like-minded people. I'm even considering writing a book titled "ouwefnnpaihfpiahd iogpaiofpoiasiouf".

 

I acknowledge that it would be reassuring to have an all powerful entity who oversees my personal well being, but understand that this is a childish and cowardly approach to life. It is difficult to accept the reality and finality of death, but there is no reason or evidence that death is any more or any less than the simple cessation of life.

Furthermore, the idea that the universe is a loving place is completely unsupportable. In reality the universe is an uncaring and hostile place in which what we call life is an insignificant and essentially a very brief chemical confluence that is quickly extinguished by the hostile environment it randomly exists in. 

 

Life as we know it means absolutely nothing but we do have the option of seeing the futility of striving for an 'eternal' continuation of it and simply enjoying the experience for as long as it endures and to the extent that we can. Fear of death is natural and the essence of life it to simply ignore it until we die.

 

No body and no thing gives a flying <deleted> about life in any form; accept the idea and move on. Leave religion to folks who cannot accept reality.

 

 

[scorecard]

2 hours ago, holy cow cm said:

Amen!

Is that an instantaneous Amen verbalisation reaction coming from an from an ultimate moment of pleasure?

[digger70]

How You Went from Faith to Unbelief in God.

 

Never had Faith or believed in Anything that I can't See. 

I listen to my dear mother , Not to the Hypocrites that Preach to you to Believe in the impossible  and what Don't exist and thing that never can happen. 

Religion is the biggest  Scam in the world. they want you to believe in them.

 But what they Really after ( no matter which religion) is Power and Money.

Look at the Pope ,the popes during the centuries had so much power and money that they Ran the Wars in Europe.

Look at the Buddhists,Monks Avery where Temples Avery where,Money and gold Avery where. 

Look at Islam They are taking over the World by Breading and Invading Every Country Trying to convert other people to their believes, their believes are Bad Their believers are not allowed to to Marry an Other Religion Person they Have that person to Convert to Islam . 

These are some of the Many Problems with Religions.

Amen, by the way I am Christened as a Roman Catholic .(Never have been Practising)

[katatonic]

There are plenty of YouTube videos of the late, great, Christopher Hitchins debating with religious types about the existence of gods which are well worth watching. Richard Dawkins is great on the subject too. CH vs. Cardinal Pell is hilarious, but none of the believers stand a chance in the face of cold logic. There is no such thing as a god or other supernatural entity and if there was, why on earth would beings created by one be expected to waste chunks of their short existences worshipping one? And to suggest that non-believers can't have the same morals as those that do is just insulting to our intelligence.

Edited June 14, 2020 by katatonic
accidental return

[Jonnapat]

My answer is when I started to follow the masses of Evangelical?  Christians?  in the USA and their affiliation with the monster in the White House.

Perhaps you csn explain how this csn be possible. 

[JimGant]

1 hour ago, Zenwind said:

I was raised in an evangelical Protestant family, good people who acted ethically and taught me to act decently.  But I never bought into their theology.  As a little kid in Sunday School, I had (human) heroes from the Old Testament like Moses, Caleb, Gideon, David and Elijah, but I was skeptical of their magical adventures.  And I never understood the fascination with Jesus or how anyone could believe the stories about him.  Walking on water?  Come on.  Resurrection back to life after being dead a day and two nights?  Growing up on a farm, I knew the realities of death and decay in warm weather.  I just could not believe any of these supernatural tales.  And this “scapegoat” sacrifice on the cross?  That was from earlier primitive religious traditions and made no sense at all to me. 

 

Here is a short account of my thinking that I was going to die in combat in Vietnam while still being a non-believer:

https://zenwind.blogspot.com/2013/03/atheist-in-foxhole_10.html

.

Thanks for that blog. It adds a lot of meat to some already seriously thought out contributions to this thread.

[kevinsan]

The Cruxifiction is still racking it in. Milking it for 2000 and beyond. Just slightly more than the Holocaust Cow. And that Cow can Moola.

[rvaviator]

I can not remember were I did pick this up - Apparently over time its been about 2500 religions / beliefs etc .... So Christianity is just 'one more' ... Why should it be any better 'more true' than all the rest ?  

[sqwakvfr]

I have gone from Agnostic to Atheist.   I believe there are two factorS for this: 

1) My Childhood was spent in relatives home, friends homes, and moved every year and went to 10 different schools from 7 to 17..  Never felt stable anywhere as a child.  

2) Many years as a street cop in Los Angeles as well.

 

Faith in God and Goodness of People? Not so much.  Studied Buddhism for years and I like what I have learned of this religion.  

[alacrity]

4 hours ago, fittobethaied said:

Remember....I said this in my OP so that members would feel the freedom to comment with no repercussions:

 

"I promise not to condemn anyone nor debate the issue on this thread or make personal contact with anyone who chooses to share".

Why initiate a thread if you're not interested in interaction?

 

The term 'god' has been used for millennia. Sadly, I've now missed the timeframe to paint my body with woad and visit Stonehenge.

 

Many thanks CCP.

 

[Parsve]

I'm not American, but from Europe. I come from a very Christian family with several priests. At the age of fourteen, I came by chance to read about the Theodicean problem, formulated as early as the 300s after Christ by Lactanius, a learned and very religious man. It was all about God, according to the Bible, is almighty. Lactanius wrote, "Either God wants to wipe out evil, but can't. Or he can, but he doesn't want to. Or he can't or won't. If he wants but can't, he is powerless, which goes against his nature. If he can but does not want he is evil, which also goes against his nature. If he neither wants nor can he is both evil and weak and is therefore not God, but if he wants and can, which is the only thing that matches with what he is, where does evil come from and why does he not end it ”?

The problem is not solved yet, 1700 years from when it was first lifted.

Then we have all wars that arose because of religion all from the Christian Crusaders onwards (there are only two religions that have never started a war, Hinduism and Buddhism).

These are the main reasons I say no to the idea of a Good.

 

Another reason was that I never understood why people regarded "their God" as a kind of Santa.

I almost completely accept its teaching on how to behave, but the rest, no.

[Parsve]

Another thing and it is a direct question to you as a believing American. How come you as believing Americans hate Islamists and favor Jews. The Islamic view of Jesus is much closer to you. According to Judaism, Jesus was nothing and irrelevant.

[OneMoreFarang]

On 6/12/2020 at 5:25 PM, doctormann said:

I grew up and started to think for myself!

That is a very good comment.

I learned about religion in school and then once a week in a protestant church.

Nothing of what the teachers tries to tell us made any sense.

And obviously I observed that people who pray and believe in god also get sick, have accidents and die. Some very early. If that was god's will why would I want such a god.

And then there are all the people who pretend they follow the bible and the ten commandments but in real life they don't do that. What's the point of going to church and then behaving like an a%#hole?

By the age of maybe 15 or so I was convinced there is no god and I didn't care about the bible, the church, religion or anything like that.

I think that does not mean I am a bad guy. I follow most of the ten commandments. Not because I believe in god, but because it makes sense not to steal or kill someone. Common sense!

 

What I found interesting that when I moved to Bangkok more than 20 years ago, after not caring about religion for many years, how much I was still used to "christian thinking". I.e. the idea that girls work in a bar and when they go to work first they go to the ghost house and then in the bar they wai the buddha statues seemed absurd. All those things which I learned and somehow internalized from the christians what someone should do or not do. Good riddance!

 

Finally, just for fun, I bought the book The God Delusion from Richard Dawkins. It describes step by step why all those religious ideas just don't make any sense. It's a wonderful book and I can recommend it to everybody.

 

[JimmyCrow]

In contrast to most of the posts on here I went from a position of unbelief to faith. In 28 years there has never been a moment when I have doubted the existence of God. I have had numerous experiences of God and know beyond a shadow of doubt that he is there. I think the defining criteria for knowing whether or not he is there is how badly do you want to know. Revelation of God is priceless. Why would you give that to someone who fundamentally is not interested ? Its only given to people who really want it. God is very real. The only person stopping you from knowing that is you. There are numerous of cases of healings, miracles, etc,. I once knew a woman who was paralysed, could not walk, received prayer and got up out of her wheelchair at a Christian meeting. Channel 4, or some other UK channel, did a documentary on her back in the 80s. It was a verified miracle. She is not the only one...

[teatime101]

On 6/12/2020 at 5:12 PM, fittobethaied said:

I promise not to condemn anyone

How noble of you. I won't condemn you, either, if that helps. I would say in very simple terms - I grew up.

Edited June 14, 2020 by teatime101

[Speedhump]

On 6/12/2020 at 5:25 PM, doctormann said:

I grew up and started to think for myself!

Yes I'd honestly say around 7 or 8 years old. He was ditched along with Father Christmas. No joke. Luckily for my son and daughter, we brought them up as strict atheists. Humanism is our unspoken faith. Our kids are wonderful young (well, almost middle-aged) adults now. 

[Speedhump]

37 minutes ago, JimmyCrow said:

In contrast to most of the posts on here I went from a position of unbelief to faith. In 28 years there has never been a moment when I have doubted the existence of God. I have had numerous experiences of God and know beyond a shadow of doubt that he is there. I think the defining criteria for knowing whether or not he is there is how badly do you want to know. Revelation of God is priceless. Why would you give that to someone who fundamentally is not interested ? Its only given to people who really want it. God is very real. The only person stopping you from knowing that is you. There are numerous of cases of healings, miracles, etc,. I once knew a woman who was paralysed, could not walk, received prayer and got up out of her wheelchair at a Christian meeting. Channel 4, or some other UK channel, did a documentary on her back in the 80s. It was a verified miracle. She is not the only one...

I won't try deny you your faith, but you went from espousing faith to trying to justify belief by quoting examples of miracles you saw on TV. 

 

If you want to believe strongly enough, then that's all you have, and if it's enough then I'm happy for you. But you didn't say what happened to you that gave you such an urgent need to believe in something like a religion. I think that could be interesting to know 

[MadMuhammad]

People of faith are sone of the most hypocritical, narrow minded, judgmental ars@s that I have ever met. Simple. 
i don’t need a pretend diety to command that I be a decent person and to scare me into complying, I do that all by myself.

[joecoolfrog]

6 hours ago, allanos said:

I think the OP should keep his beliefs to himself, and cease his attempts to proselytise. I might also pass on to him that the word he was looking for in his post was "tenet" and not "tenant".  Be that as it may, I also believe that, whatever "God" one has a belief in, a Universal Force, a Magical Power, a Grand Architect, "evolution" whatever that may mean, a person called "Jesus" has nothing much to do with any of them. 

 

The biblical stories of the New Testament, which is, itself, full of inconsistencies, the earliest of those writings coming 40-60 years after the birth of this so-called Jesus, and some, around 200 years later.  This "bible" was assembled to give a spurious historical foundation to Christianity, a bit like the recent death of Mr Floyd, one of life's losers, a criminal no less, who triggered worldwide uprisings and riots by believers in a faith called BLM.  Is this the kind of "hero" the "movement" needs?

 

However, Mr Floyd's incarnation cannot be queried, but that of Jesus can.  There is no true, historical evidence that this man ever existed.  The name Jesus was prevalent 2000 years ago, and there were many of them evangelising their own beliefs around the same time. 

 

The man the Christian movement follows today may be a cobbling together of a few of these.  I would recommend a book called "The Jesus Mysteries", which displays facts about earlier Faiths borrowing (hijacking) certain elements from those of even earlier times, like virgin birth, and so on, for their particular "god".  At best, the Jesus believed in today is like Robin Hood or King Arthur, likely not historical, a fabrication who could be a number of persons rolled into one character.

For me the compelling evidence that Jesus was a fabrication is the Dead Sea Scrolls .

The Essenes were a messianic cult ( so would have celebrated such a person ) , lived in the right place and during the correct period of time.

They detailed all their rites and beliefs but to what degree did they write about Jesus....zilch.

Remember this is a man who supposedly attracted huge crowds throughout the holy land yet the highly devout Essenes didn't notice him lol.

[joecoolfrog]

2 hours ago, JimmyCrow said:

In contrast to most of the posts on here I went from a position of unbelief to faith. In 28 years there has never been a moment when I have doubted the existence of God. I have had numerous experiences of God and know beyond a shadow of doubt that he is there. I think the defining criteria for knowing whether or not he is there is how badly do you want to know. Revelation of God is priceless. Why would you give that to someone who fundamentally is not interested ? Its only given to people who really want it. God is very real. The only person stopping you from knowing that is you. There are numerous of cases of healings, miracles, etc,. I once knew a woman who was paralysed, could not walk, received prayer and got up out of her wheelchair at a Christian meeting. Channel 4, or some other UK channel, did a documentary on her back in the 80s. It was a verified miracle. She is not the only one...

Im glad that you have found a physchological crutch that comforts you. Others prefer alcohol or cocaine , no different to religion , let the habit get out of control and they each cause problems.

[sirineou]

On 6/12/2020 at 6:25 AM, doctormann said:

I grew up and started to think for myself!

And that there  puts an end to this thread. Nothing more to say . 

[ChouDoufu]

3 hours ago, JimmyCrow said:

In contrast to most of the posts on here I went from a position of unbelief to faith. In 28 years there has never been a moment when I have doubted the existence of God. I have had numerous experiences of God and know beyond a shadow of doubt that he is there. I think the defining criteria for knowing whether or not he is there is how badly do you want to know. Revelation of God is priceless. Why would you give that to someone who fundamentally is not interested ? Its only given to people who really want it. God is very real. The only person stopping you from knowing that is you. There are numerous of cases of healings, miracles, etc,. I once knew a woman who was paralysed, could not walk, received prayer and got up out of her wheelchair at a Christian meeting. Channel 4, or some other UK channel, did a documentary on her back in the 80s. It was a verified miracle. She is not the only one...

 

miracles?  believers and non-believers alike arise from comas, experience spontaneous remissions of cancer.  intercessory prayer works as well as a coin toss.

 

faith healing?  ever notice all these faith healings are things easily faked?  they stand and walk, they drop their crutches, their posture straightens.

 

but you never see a missing limb regrown.