EU, UK to step up Brexit talks to try to close 'significant gaps' over trade deal

[vogie]

10 minutes ago, Phulublub said:

Still ignoring that by missing the start of my sentence you entirely changed it from question to command just so you could have a rant.

 

And, once again, showing what the options were does not, in any way, explain the reasons for choosing one over the other.  At all.  But the more you perservere with your lines of misquote, misrepresent and non-answer, the more I become convinced you are a one-reason brexiteer who cannot bring himself to acknowledge the severe downsides that will come with your "victory". 

 

PH

Nobody is interested in your own self importance, Brexit is so much bigger than that, I admit you didn't get what you wanted but 17,400,000 did. You have to understand that Brexit is not about you and the remainers who refuse to acknowledge the democratic result but about the majority that voted for leave. Once you start to accept the result of the referendum maybe you might be able to find inner peace within yourself.

[herfiehandbag]

43 minutes ago, Phulublub said:

We don't.  That is the whole point. 

 

Many believe that Brexit voters did so for a huge variety of reasons, some of which will be completely contradictory.  Others will have voted unaware of some (or many) of the consequences. 

 

You voted to stop immigration and for No Deal.  How many of your bedfelloews did the same?  How many voted to Leave but in the full expectation of a decent Trade Deal?  If ANY of them did so, then either you (and those like you) or they will not get what they voted for.

 

PH

We voted to leave. Leave. Quit. Cease being members of the European Union. It is as simple as that. There were probably as many reasons for leaving as there were votes for leaving (17,410,742 - as opposed to 16,141,241;  just to remind you). The decision made, it was then the duty of the government to arrange it (leaving). David Cameron bottled it, Theresa May attempted to fudge it, and essentially remain, and was found out, Boris Johnson fought and won an election on the basis of actually implementing the decision and leaving. The terms under which we are leaving are still being negotiated. No-one knew the exact terms under which we would leave when they cast their vote in June 2016; personally I expected that we would leave with no deal, because I doubted our political establishment's will to carry through the instruction of the electorate wholeheartedly, and I expected the EU establishment to be as difficult and obstructive as possible, both of which have perhaps proved to be the case.

 

Accept the decision to leave, arrived at by the simplest of democratic processes, one vote per voter across the nation, and stop trying to qualify that vote by suggesting that the leave majority was in any way fragmented. It wasn't. The question asked was very simple, remain or leave. Leave won.

Edited October 7, 2020 by herfiehandbag

[david555]

????

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/oct/07/eu-needs-clear-sign-uk-will-get-real-in-brexit-talks-says-irish-minister

 

EU needs clear sign UK will get real in Brexit talks, says Irish minister

Simon Coveney says talks will not progress without signal that UK is ready to show some realism

 

Lisa O'Carroll Brexit correspondent

@lisaocarroll

Wed 7 Oct 2020 13.08 BST

Last modified on Wed 7 Oct 2020 13.49 BST

 

The EU’s Michel Barnier will not move Brexit talks into the so-called “tunnel” of more intense negotiations “unless he gets a very clear signal from the UK that they are willing to show some flexibility and realism” in its approach to a deal, Ireland’s foreign affairs minister has said.

Edited October 7, 2020 by david555

[kingdong]

2 hours ago, vogie said:

And so the cycle continues.

until it goes under a bus

[Phulublub]

10 minutes ago, herfiehandbag said:

stop trying to qualify that vote by suggesting that the leave majority was in any way fragmented.

It wasn't?  Perhaps you should let the ERG know.

 

PH

[RayC]

2 hours ago, Loiner said:

And your next EU Derby will be run again in about 46 years or so. Probably not a different winner by then.

Any idea who's going to win the 13:40 @Ayr tomorrow (Thursday)?

[Loiner]

10 minutes ago, RayC said:

Any idea who's going to win the 13:40 @Ayr tomorrow (Thursday)?

As a Remainer you must be able to forecast doom for the losers. 

[Loiner]

1 hour ago, Rookiescot said:

Dont think I did Loiner. Hence my sentence about you not caring about the consequences.

So all leavers voted for the same Brexit that you want?

Amazing. 

There wasn’t 50 shades of Brexit to choose from. 

[CG1 Blue]

1 hour ago, Phulublub said:

It wasn't?  Perhaps you should let the ERG know.

 

PH

Have you gone back to 2016/17/18 in some sort of time warp? 

[CG1 Blue]

3 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

So why did you vote for Brexit? And which version of Brexit did you vote for?

And please dont do what you have done for the last four years and simply evade the question.

I've answered the question many times, and plenty of times directly to you and your Scindy chums on TVF. 

I'm not going through it in detail just for you to ask me the same thing again next month and the month after that. 

In short, I voted for the UK to leave the EU as completely as possible and in whatever version we end up with. I just wanted us ooot, as you say north of the border. 

[tebee]

5 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

 

In short, I voted for the UK to leave the EU as completely as possible and in whatever version we end up with. I just wanted us ooot, as you say north of the border. 

And you may well get that, just a pity it will destroy the UK economically and physically  - a pyrrhic victory if ever there was one!   

[luckyluke]

10 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

 

The entire thing has been highjacked by Brexit fundamentalists. 

It all depends on what the government of Mr. Johnson is planning to do. 

 

So far Mr. Johnson ignored the wish

of the hard Brexiteers to smash the negotiations door. 

 

In fact he called for, or if not, agreed, with an extension. 

 

It remains also to been seen if a concrete, noticeable change about immigration will be implemented;

another wish of the hard Brexiteers. 

 

In my opinion the hard Brexiteers don't have, for the moment, anything  to celebrate. 

 

Leavers won the referendum, not the hard Brexiteers. 

 

[vogie]

43 minutes ago, luckyluke said:

It all depends on what the government of Mr. Johnson is planning to do. 

 

So far Mr. Johnson ignored the wish

of the hard Brexiteers to smash the negotiations door. 

 

In fact he called for, or if not, agreed, with an extension. 

 

It remains also to been seen if a concrete, noticeable change about immigration will be implemented;

another wish of the hard Brexiteers. 

 

In my opinion the hard Brexiteers don't have, for the moment, anything  to celebrate. 

 

Leavers won the referendum, not the hard Brexiteers. 

 

That is simply not correct, I'm sure Boris would like to do a deal, but not at any price. Mr Macron is refusing to budge, he still wants the same fishing rights as he had before and he cannot change his mind (much to the consternation of other nations in the EU) as that would seem to the French as capitulating to their old enemy. 

Surely anyone can see that it is Macron that is forcing a 'no deal' and not the UK.

Whether Mrs Merkel will tell him to wind his neck in, is anyones guess.

[luckyluke]

44 minutes ago, vogie said:

That is simply not correct, I'm sure Boris would like to do a deal, but not at any price. Mr Macron is refusing to budge, he still wants the same fishing rights as he had before and he cannot change his mind (much to the consternation of other nations in the EU) as that would seem to the French as capitulating to their old enemy. 

Surely anyone can see that it is Macron that is forcing a 'no deal' and not the UK.

Whether Mrs Merkel will tell him to wind his neck in, is anyones guess.

I am agree with you, wanting the same fishing right as before is out of the question.  On the other hand the U.K. wanting the same conditions, if not better, than a member of the E.U. is unworkable for the E.U..  But everything is possible, like I mentioned before, all depends what is proposed in  lieu of.   As to pretend that it is always the other who doesn't want something, and is in fault; I don't buy this. 

That's a mantra from radicals, and there are always ones on each side. 

 

[JonnyF]

12 hours ago, Phulublub said:

And the Derby is run again next year...perhaps with a different winner.

 

PH

But they don't withhold the prize money until next year's race is run, do they?

 

On your later point, you can't hold a referendum every 4 years like the Olympics. As we've seen it can take more than 4 years to disentangle from the EU's corrupt, inflexible, undemocratic tentacles.

 

I expected a trade deal but I had underestimated the EU's spite. Would I have voted Remain if I had know what would happen in the last 4 years? Absolutely not. I would vote Leave with even greater conviction, knowing now what a disgraceful, underhand, sly organization the EU is. Before I thought they were incompetent and undemocratic. Now I know they are much worse than that.

 

FTA's are over-rated anyway. The EU and China does a Billion Euros of trade every single day without a FTA. The UK is right next door to the EU and is currently 100% aligned so continued trading on a massive scale is inevitable, irrespective of Remainers wishes for the UK to fail.

 

It's time to dry those tears and stop sulking like a dumped teenage girl.

[luckyluke]

2 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

 

 

 the EU's corrupt, inflexible, undemocratic tentacles.

 

 what a disgraceful, underhand, sly organization the EU is. Before I thought they were incompetent and undemocratic. Now I know they are much worse than that.

 

 

This seems to be an impression only a part of the Britons have. 

From all the Belgians I know, no-one has this feeling. 

Neither does I encounter it on a Belgian/Flemish forum I am member of. 

Now it is maybe because the E.U. hasn't any influence at all on our daily life. 

 

 

[david555]

2 hours ago, luckyluke said:

It all depends on what the government of Mr. Johnson is planning to do. 

 

So far Mr. Johnson ignored the wish

of the hard Brexiteers to smash the negotiations door. 

 

In fact he called for, or if not, agreed, with an extension. 

 

It remains also to been seen if a concrete, noticeable change about immigration will be implemented;

another wish of the hard Brexiteers. 

 

In my opinion the hard Brexiteers don't have, for the moment, anything  to celebrate. 

 

Leavers won the referendum, not the hard Brexiteers. 

 

Yes they are defenitly Out !...but standing still all the time in the doorway yelling they are out ....!! While not move an inch further ...????????????????

Edited October 8, 2020 by david555

[david555]

1 hour ago, vogie said:

That is simply not correct, I'm sure Boris would like to do a deal, but not at any price. Mr Macron is refusing to budge, he still wants the same fishing rights as he had before and he cannot change his mind (much to the consternation of other nations in the EU) as that would seem to the French as capitulating to their old enemy. 

Surely anyone can see that it is Macron that is forcing a 'no deal' and not the UK.

Whether Mrs Merkel will tell him to wind his neck in, is anyones guess.

Yes..

but Merkel is going pension ..Macron will be a longer while in the influencing lead group......ah ! ..that damn veto right .... ...( also democracy ! )....????????????

Edited October 8, 2020 by david555

[luckyluke]

I encounter this :

 

 

"With 383 votes in favour, the European Parliament elected Ursula von der Leyen President of the next European Commission in a secret ballot on 16 July.

She is set to take office on 1 November 2019 for a five-year term. There were 733 votes cast, one of which was not valid. 383 members voted in favour, 327 against, and 22 abstained.

 

It seems Mrs. von der Leyen isn't that popular. 

327 on 733 voted against her. 

 

Something  nearly similar to the Brexit vote. 

 

[david555]

5 minutes ago, luckyluke said:

I encounter this :

 

 

"With 383 votes in favour, the European Parliament elected Ursula von der Leyen President of the next European Commission in a secret ballot on 16 July.

She is set to take office on 1 November 2019 for a five-year term. There were 733 votes cast, one of which was not valid. 383 members voted in favour, 327 against, and 22 abstained.

 

It seems Mrs. von der Leyen isn't that popular. 

327 on 733 voted against her. 

 

Something  nearly similar to the Brexit vote. 

 

So the Brexiteers must find this sure a democratic winning vote....comparing with their 52% / 48% referendum win ????????

 

As even 1 vote + they would call democracy .....

 

Edited October 8, 2020 by david555

[transam]

14 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

This is the kind of evasion we have had for the last 4 years.

You want everyone to unite behind Brexit but you and the other Brexiteers cant even begin to tell us WHY.

One more time..............To leave the EU and become our own "man" again....

 

Hey, concentrate on below with your efforts, it needs someone to sort it out chap...

 https://uk.yahoo.com/news/scottish-labour-launches-petition-oust-104025712.html

[transam]

13 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

But what was the will of the people?

What version of Brexit did people want?

Hard Brexit?

Soft Brexit?

The entire thing has been highjacked by Brexit fundamentalists. 

I think you're on a wind-up......????

[hotandsticky]

11 minutes ago, transam said:

I think you're on a wind-up......????

 

 

It is called trolling.

 

 

He/she has a history.......

[transam]

Just now, hotandsticky said:

 

 

It is called trolling.

 

 

He/she has a history.......

I agree, same ol' questions, same ol' rhetoric....

Mind you, I think it fun that same ol' stuff comes from those across the "English" channel, I suppose the worry of their undoubted tax hikes does that to folk.....????.....................????

[vogie]

2 minutes ago, Victornoir said:

Finally a good Brexiter analysis.

Yes, Macron wants a no-deal divorce. The problem of a few fishing companies based in Dunkirk and Boulogne is a lure to block any progress.

Macron the former banker knows how to count. He will willingly sacrifice some subsidized fisheries for the benefit of the automotive market and part of highly profitable financial services.

And there we have the problem of how the EU works, one rogue nation dictates to the other 26 nations.

[david555]

15 minutes ago, vogie said:

And there we have the problem of how the EU works, one rogue nation dictates to the other 26 nations.

Clean your U.K. mirror , as your English part  can't see yourself is doing that ????

Edited October 8, 2020 by david555

[sandyf]

16 hours ago, vogie said:

I haven't ignored anything, in 2014 I would never have supported independence, 

 

When you say you havn't ignored anything, well that is not strickly true is it. Whatever you supported in 2014 is totally irrelevant, you are ignoring the 2014 Scots Referendum now and the UKs EU referendum. That is 2 referendums you are ignoring c/w the democracy that goes with them.

I must say I admire people like you that live on that higher moral level where you can still be best friends with those that betray you, the reality is however that betrayal in us lesser mortals tends to create a change in attitude.

Three days before the referendum in 2014, David Cameron made a plea to the people of Scotland and in that speech he said

I say all this because I don’t want the people of Scotland to be sold a dream that disappears.

As he made that statement he was already planning a referendum to leave the EU knowing full well that the people of Scotland were predominantly pro EU.

He also spoke as the head of the Westminster government but unfortunately we have all come to learn the word of the Westminster government means very little.

And as Prime Minister I have to tell you what that would mean.

In fact he made out he was speaking on behalf of the population of the other 3 nations.

I speak for millions of people across England, Wales and Northern Ireland

It cannot be denied that the speech was an act of betrayal against the people of Scotland, text in italics is quotes from the full speech which you can read here

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/scottish-independence/scottish-independence-full-text-david-cameron-s-no-going-back-speech-9735902.html

 

The reality of the betrayal was fairly obvious from the Scottish vote in the brexit referendum.

I appreciate that from your higher moral position betrayal has a different perspective, but you really need to come down to earth and face reality, irrespective of what you or I say the issue is real and not going to go away.

 

[luckyluke]

2 minutes ago, vogie said:

And there we have the problem of how the EU works, one rogue nation dictates to the other 26 nations.

This is of course an interpretation.

 

One can use the words "dictate to the other nations"

and one can use the words "the other nations agreed with".

 

The choice of words depends how the person  feels himself about the situation.

That count as well for the persons reading the text.

 

Therefore for the same post you will have "Like" & "Thanks" emoticons, as you will have "Haha" & "Confused" ones, as reaction.

[sandyf]

13 hours ago, herfiehandbag said:

Accept the decision to leave, arrived at by the simplest of democratic processes, one vote per voter across the nation, and stop trying to qualify that vote by suggesting that the leave majority was in any way fragmented. It wasn't. The question asked was very simple, remain or leave. Leave won.

A valid perspective. 

If attempts to prevent undesirable development have failed, shouldn't you have the option to sell up and move away.

[vogie]

5 minutes ago, sandyf said:

I must say I admire people like you that live on that higher moral level where you can still be best friends with those that betray you, the reality is however that betrayal in us lesser mortals tends to create a change in attitude.

Three days before the referendum in 2014, David Cameron made a plea to the people of Scotland and in that speech he said

I say all this because I don’t want the people of Scotland to be sold a dream that disappears.

As he made that statement he was already planning a referendum to leave the EU knowing full well that the people of Scotland were predominantly pro EU.

He also spoke as the head of the Westminster government but unfortunately we have all come to learn the word of the Westminster government means very little.

And as Prime Minister I have to tell you what that would mean.

In fact he made out he was speaking on behalf of the population of the other 3 nations.

I speak for millions of people across England, Wales and Northern Ireland

It cannot be denied that the speech was an act of betrayal against the people of Scotland, text in italics is quotes from the full speech which you can read here

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/scottish-independence/scottish-independence-full-text-david-cameron-s-no-going-back-speech-9735902.html

 

The reality of the betrayal was fairly obvious from the Scottish vote in the brexit referendum.

I appreciate that from your higher moral position betrayal has a different perspective, but you really need to come down to earth and face reality, irrespective of what you or I say the issue is real and not going to go away.

 

When someone starts their post with "must be mentally challenged" you really don't have a leg to stand on when it comes to morality. 

Are we going out for another spin now Sandy.

I really wouldn't mention the Scots Nasty Party, they are splitting the UK up and not content with that they are also splitting Scotland up, but you'll still have the saltire faces in Glasgow waving their flags declaring England out of Scotland, they believe anything they are told by Mr and Mrs Murrell.

So at the end of the day you still are ignoring the two referendums however you wish to spin it.