Questions (2) about quiet walls and windows

[qualtrough]

I have two questions about building a sound-proofed 6 x 4m room:

 

1. How much noise do the concrete blocks known as block-loy transmit? These would be rendered. These are the longish blocks that are aerated and will float on water.

 

2. Does anyone have a recommendation in the Bangok metro area and/or suburbs for a window outfit that makes the multiple layer windows that have good sound-proofing qualities? I know there is a technical name for those but I can't see to find it right now. There are a lot of outfits on the web but I am looking for a personal recommendation.

 

Thanks in advance for anyone who can help!

[VocalNeal]

All I know is that for sound proffing. Windows need glass of differening thickness so the vibrations (sound) from one cannot vibrate the other pane in resonance and there for transfer the sound.

[bankruatsteve]

1 hour ago, qualtrough said:

1. How much noise do the concrete blocks known as block-loy transmit? These would be rendered. These are the longish blocks that are aerated and will float on water.

Don't know "block-loy" but AAC block provides very good insulation.  The best sound block for windows is a heavy drape.

[Surelynot]

42 minutes ago, VocalNeal said:

All I know is that for sound proffing. Windows need glass of differening thickness so the vibrations (sound) from one cannot vibrate the other pane in resonance and there for transfer the sound.

Mmmmm....did not know that!

[sometimewoodworker]

1 hour ago, qualtrough said:

I have two questions about building a sound-proofed 6 x 4m room:

You are very unlikely to be able to have a sound-proofed room. You can reduce the sound transmission, but don’t forget that sound travels quite well through the concrete floors.

 

1 hour ago, qualtrough said:

How much noise do the concrete blocks known as block-loy transmit?

I’ve never heard that name. If you mean AAC blocks then QCon publishes the data I have about a 23db reduction.

 

1 hour ago, qualtrough said:

Does anyone have a recommendation in the Bangok metro area and/or suburbs for a window outfit that makes the multiple layer windows that have good sound-proofing qualities?

The window companies do not make or construct the glass they make and fit the frames. Ours were supplied by Prime-Asia 

They are IGUs Laminate C4+1.52+LowEC4+Ars8+C5

 

Edited January 21, 2021 by sometimewoodworker

[qualtrough]

On 1/21/2021 at 8:38 PM, sometimewoodworker said:

You are very unlikely to be able to have a sound-proofed room. You can reduce the sound transmission, but don’t forget that sound travels quite well through the concrete floors.

 

I’ve never heard that name. If you mean AAC blocks then QCon publishes the data I have about a 23db reduction.

 

 

Thanks. I meant the AAC blocks, just didn't know the name. Thais call them block loy because they float on water. Thanks for the video. I don't mean to completely sound proof, just to reduce outside noise to a reasonable extent.

[canopy]

Double pane glass is only part of the equation. You also must have full weather stripping or there will be noisy gaps. Good windows have double weather stripping surfaces. The window type also makes an enormous difference. Sliding windows are among the worst for noise because they slide along brushes being the only barrier to the outside. Casement with 4 point locking are among the best since they clamp down tight on all 4 sides to rubber weather stripping.

 

AAC blocks help with noise, but you may want to consider things like using the thick blocks (thicknesses available range from 75 - 250mm), a cavity wall, and the addition of sound blocks and gypsum depending on how many db you want to reduce.

 

[unheard]

57 minutes ago, canopy said:

and the addition of sound blocks and gypsum depending on how many db you want to reduce.

What are sound blocks?

[sometimewoodworker]

1 hour ago, canopy said:

Double pane glass is only part of the equation. You also must have full weather stripping or there will be noisy gaps. Good windows have double weather stripping surfaces. The window type also makes an enormous difference. Sliding windows are among the worst for noise because they slide along brushes being the only barrier to the outside. Casement with 4 point locking are among the best since they clamp down tight on all 4 sides to rubber weather stripping.

With our windows and doors we have both casement with multi point locking and sliding windows, there is no noticeable difference in sound performance, they both give a 20+db reduction in sound they are placed in double AAC block walls. So the quality of the frames and design of the IGUs is probably a factor as well. FWIW one of our doors has glass that’s about 47kg in total so mass is part of the equation.

[unheard]

25 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

With our windows and doors we have both casement with multi point locking and sliding windows

Do you have any of those laminated?

[sometimewoodworker]

47 minutes ago, unheard said:

Do you have any of those laminated?

All the bottom windows have a laminated outer panel with 1.52 Pvb in the IGU which make them strong enough that monkey bars are not needed, the clearstory has .38 Pvb but they are at about 6.5 meters and have no access to the house without falling about 5 metres so are a very I likely ingress point.

[canopy]

2 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

With our windows and doors we have both casement with multi point locking and sliding windows, there is no noticeable difference in sound performance

That does not correlate with what the manufacturers and independent sources have to say which can easily be verified by a simple google search. It is known that the tighter the window, the better it performs against sound. Sliding is not as tight as 4 point multi locking a sash to weather stripping. Personally, I would never risk using a sliding window in a noise sensitive area unless the manufacturer could prove it through certification and I don't know of any that could. That's why all of my windows are double pane, varied glass thickness, argon filled, double laminated, double weather stripped with high quality rubber, 4 point mushroom locked, stainless steel GU hardware to lock them down, and all warrantied. When I close my windows I don't even know I'm in Thailand anymore unless I look outside. I use Hevta.

 

[canopy]

2 hours ago, unheard said:

What are sound blocks?

These are in wall building blocks specifically designed to dampen sound such as cylence zoundblocks. I recommend going to any SCG center, tell them what you want, and have them design it. SCG make AAC blocks, sound blocks, many other acoustical products, and has design engineers at each location that give free advice.

 

[qualtrough]

1 hour ago, canopy said:

That does not correlate with what the manufacturers and independent sources have to say which can easily be verified by a simple google search. It is known that the tighter the window, the better it performs against sound. Sliding is not as tight as 4 point multi locking a sash to weather stripping. Personally, I would never risk using a sliding window in a noise sensitive area unless the manufacturer could prove it through certification and I don't know of any that could. That's why all of my windows are double pane, varied glass thickness, argon filled, double laminated, double weather stripped with high quality rubber, 4 point mushroom locked, stainless steel GU hardware to lock them down, and all warrantied. When I close my windows I don't even know I'm in Thailand anymore unless I look outside. I use Hevta.

 

Thanks for your input. Can you give me any idea of costs? Perhaps one window size as an example?

[qualtrough]

4 hours ago, canopy said:

Double pane glass is only part of the equation. You also must have full weather stripping or there will be noisy gaps. Good windows have double weather stripping surfaces. The window type also makes an enormous difference. Sliding windows are among the worst for noise because they slide along brushes being the only barrier to the outside. Casement with 4 point locking are among the best since they clamp down tight on all 4 sides to rubber weather stripping.

 

AAC blocks help with noise, but you may want to consider things like using the thick blocks (thicknesses available range from 75 - 250mm), a cavity wall, and the addition of sound blocks and gypsum depending on how many db you want to reduce.

 

Thanks. We are not facing an extremely loud situation, but the quieter the better. I may go the sound block/gypsum route on the one wall facing a soi. That wall will have no windows. Planning some kind of oriental run on a wood floor. I always find carpet rugs noticeably reduce noise.

[gamb00ler]

10 hours ago, canopy said:

That's why all of my windows are double pane, varied glass thickness, argon filled, double laminated, double weather stripped with high quality rubber, 4 point mushroom locked, stainless steel GU hardware to lock them down, and all warrantied. When I close my windows I don't even know I'm in Thailand anymore unless I look outside. I use Hevta.

 

Sounds like you have high quality windows.  I'm looking for pricing on similar quality windows in CM.  Is "Hevta" the brand name?

[sometimewoodworker]

10 hours ago, canopy said:

12 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

With our windows and doors we have both casement with multi point locking and sliding windows, there is no noticeable difference in sound performance

That does not correlate with what the manufacturers and independent sources have to say which can easily be verified by a simple google search

Well your Google search must mean that my observations of a decibel meter in my house with both kinds of windows fitted are clearly wrong!!! Or it could be that there are better fitting windows?
 

 

9 hours ago, qualtrough said:

any idea of costs?

[Slain]

Surely double glasing frames and windows are available somwhere in Thailand?

[canopy]

9 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

Well your Google search must mean that my observations of a decibel meter in my house with both kinds of windows fitted are clearly wrong!!!

There could be many other variables in your house that are influencing your test results for instance (but not limited to) sound coming in from other rooms. I would look at the professionally tested and certified manufacturer sound transmission ratings when available. Without that, the expert advice is that sliding is the noisiest type of window. It's common knowledge.

 

There are other important downsides to sliding windows. I know someone who has sliding windows and the several nights of the year with flying termite blooms he complains they can work their way into his house through the brushes; no idea how common this problem is. Nothing can get through the solid rubber weather stripping used on casement windows. Casement also keep the house tighter which is good for lowering AC bills and keeping out PM2.5 particles when running an air purifier. Another reason to avoid sliding windows is they typically have 2 panes but only one can be open meaning half the window opening area is lost and thus ventilation is cut in half. Casement is much better for ventilation as you open the entire opening area for maximum ventilation and on top of that the open sash acts like a sail directing the breeze from outside into the house. I would never use a sliding window in Thailand; they carry all of the big disadvantages.

 

Note there are several types of windows that fall in the sliding category such as double hung. There are also several types that fall in the casement category like tilt and turn. I prefer tilt and turn because they open inward so don't interfere with security systems, are a breeze to clean even on a second floor, and have two different and useful opening modes.

 

10 hours ago, gamb00ler said:

Is "Hevta" the brand name?

 

Hevta is the company I went with. When I visited their showroom in Bangkok I was immediately impressed the frames were super solid and heavy duty and they use genuine GU stainless steel hardware from germany. Hevta also emphasize good service. There are also good or possibly even better window brands out there, arc or prime-asia for example. If you want to know prices, ask any of them for quotations.

 

Edited February 7, 2021 by canopy

[sometimewoodworker]

2 minutes ago, canopy said:

There could be so many other variables in your house that are influencing your test results for instance (but not limited to) sound coming in from other rooms. I would look at the professionally tested and certified manufacturer sound transmission ratings when available. Without that, the expert advice is that sliding is the noisiest type of window.

Humm.

Do you assume that I am totally unaware of all or any of those factors?

Do you think that I did not do several measurements to ensure that conditions were equal before and after?

To repeat, in my house, with my windows. There is no noticeable difference in sound reduction between my sliding windows and my casement windows. The reduction in most sounds is over 20db with both types, an example is in the video I posted. 
 

You seem obsessed with professional lab tested results that will be different from actual results as the house will be different and so will the fitting. Yes they can give an indication, but that’s all it is. The glazing will provide almost all the sound transfer.

 

so if you have a sound transfer of 100 through a sliding window and 99 through a similar sized casement window and you can isolate the glass transmission to 98, you could  reasonably say the the casement has double the performance of the sliding window but be totally unable to actually hear any difference.

The numbers in the illustration above are indicative and are not actual or in any measuring scheme. So don’t get fixated on them.

 

 

[prophet01]

@qualtrough

 

Might be worth reading my previous thread,

Balcony door double glazing

 

Edited February 7, 2021 by prophet01

[qualtrough]

22 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

Well your Google search must mean that my observations of a decibel meter in my house with both kinds of windows fitted are clearly wrong!!! Or it could be that there are better fitting windows?
 

 

Pardon my ignorance, but what size are those? is that 1.65m x 1.39m? Company?

Edited February 7, 2021 by qualtrough

[sometimewoodworker]

10 hours ago, qualtrough said:

Pardon my ignorance, but what size are those? is that 1.65m x 1.39m? Company?

All the measurements are in millimetres. The price is X VAT
 

this is the glazing unit detail

and company 

[ourmanflint]

I used to run a recording studio in Ladbroke grove in the rave years, it's much cheaper to build a room within a room for a studio, that way you can isolate everything with floating construction. Basically a stud wall room within any old space would work if built properly

[kamalabob2]

Yes double pane windows are fabricated and sold in Thailand. In fact i bought double pane UPVC sliding windows and casement windows at Global House in Buriram for a small village house I had built for my wife. I have tempered glass and reasonable curtains on single hung windows in a home theater in Satuk. 25 cm thick by 20 cm high by 60 cm long AAC blocks are readily available in Thailand.  I ordered 15 cm wide and 10 cm wide steel reinforced Lintels for over doors and windows of a home with 25cm thick Diamond AAC blocks. Carpet on the floor may help with sound in a media room in my home in Satuk. Custom made proper windows are readily available in Thailand, yet it is wise to go to the showroom and see the fit and finish. I spent over 800,000 baht on windows, one pivoting door and two sliding doors on my home in Satuk in 2008. 

https://www.buriramhome.com/buriram-home-media-room/

[canopy]

On 2/7/2021 at 8:09 AM, sometimewoodworker said:

You seem obsessed with professional lab tested results

In developed countries this testing and its disclosure would be mandatory to help consumers make smart choices. So this is not an obsession and on the contrary you'd have to be nuts to make such important decisions solely on what some guy you never met before on an internet message board said.

 

By the way it seems you bought from prime asia, very good. There is a gentleman there named Dario who is pretty sharp. He can explain why your sliding windows are not as good for noise as his other window types. And you could try to get to the bottom of the odd acoustic data points you acquired. Prime asia even sell 8 point locking windows. Superb.

 

[sometimewoodworker]

3 hours ago, canopy said:

By the way it seems you bought from prime asia,

Well there is no seeming about it as I posted the fact in post number 5 in this thread. ???? ???? ???? 
Also I had an hour meeting with Dario and one or two of his staff prior to building. Also they sent an install team from Bangkok to fit the doors and windows.

 

I have no interest in going further with your obsession in trying to prove that my data is wrong. It isn’t.

I have no interest in discovering why my sliding windows work as well as my casement windows. They do.

 

My effective sound reduction is greater than 20db ~ 23db, it’s plenty quiet enough specially with my silent MrKen fans and an AC in our bedroom that has a setting that is almost as quiet as the fans the sound is audible but almost impossible to measure, a greater sound reduction would be uncomfortable.

Edited February 8, 2021 by sometimewoodworker

[canopy]

10 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

I have no interest in discovering why my sliding windows work as well as my casement windows. They do.

This would defy the laws of physics so I must stick with what Dario, a window expert from the company you bought from, told me. There is nothing wrong with your window choices, I would expect they are strong in every single area. I however am in total agreement with the OP when he says the four words: "the quieter the better". In Thailand that's crucial because noise in many ways is getting worse year by year as the population increases and the country develops giving morons more money to blow on noisy technology. The following is not directed at you SWW, but at others: a quiet house is paramount to have the privilege's of concentration, sleep, and a peaceful, low stress environment anytime you wish it. Noise is harmful to human health, it's not something you should ever "just get used to". I know an expat who didn't do anything for noise with his house. He spends his days cursing each time those super loud motorcycles go whizzing by (which year by year keeps going up in quantity and volume) and on nights a nearby resort throws a party with speakers blaring he has no option of sleep until they shut down.

 

[Oldie]

A very interesting topic. But when it comes to noise protection - I miss here a very important thing - the frequency of the noise. The noise of a mosquito you can block with a piece of paper. But the deeper the frequency gets the harder / more expensive or even impossible it will be to block it.