SURVEY: Cryptocurrencies -- wave of the future or disaster waiting to happen?

[Misty]

2 minutes ago, Sharp said:

Bitcoin isnt deflationary asset since its total supply doesn't decrease every year but i guess we have differing views on my logic.????

 

Okay,  here's a simple thought experiment:  how much bitcoin will your groceries cost you next month?  How about next year?

[Sharp]

3 minutes ago, Misty said:

 

Okay,  here's a simple thought experiment:  how much bitcoin will your groceries cost you next month?  How about next year?

Firstly i agree you have an argument but what i am saying is more and more institutions are accepting it becoming a currency of sorts ( Although i have stated its a store of value for me as of now) Mastercard,Tesla,Paypal,BNY Mellon Americas oldest bank to name the latest ..Oh and Miami ( Google the latest on that for paying their taxes in Bitcoin) So if I pay my latest PayPal bill in Bitcoin at todays rate and tomorrow it drops 30% will PayPal call me up for the difference i guess we will see..

[Sharp]

Lastly check out JP Morgan's latest comments on Bitcoins..

Have a good day I'm out 

[Misty]

Just now, Sharp said:

Firstly i agree you have an argument but what i am saying is more and more institutions are accepting it becoming a currency of sorts ( Although i have stated its a store of value for me as of now) Mastercard,Tesla,Paypal,BNY Mellon Americas oldest bank to name the latest ..Oh and Miami ( Google the latest on that for paying their taxes in Bitcoin) So if I pay my latest PayPal bill in Bitcoin at todays rate and tomorrow it drops 30% will PayPal call me up for the difference i guess we will see..

 

Institutions may "participate" in some way as long as they can make money - for example, helping people "store" (hoard) or maybe trade it.  Will bitcoin be used for transactions?   Not really - not as long as there's an expectation that its price in real currencies will keep going up.  That's the real appeal here.  Bitcoin enthusiasts won't use it for transactions. 

[Misty]

1 minute ago, Sharp said:

Lastly check out JP Morgan's latest comments on Bitcoins..

Have a good day I'm out 

 

Link?

[donnacha]

1 hour ago, Peter Denis said:

In the cas.e of Bitcoin that is only correct when demand for the coin is higher than the 'supply'

The demand will continue to push the price up throughout this "adoption phase" (of I don't know how many years) because the expansion is happening simultaneously on a number of levels:

• More human beings are going online.
   
• More kids who have grown up as "digital natives" are entering the workforce or starting companies.
   
• More families are being lifted out of poverty and have at least some money to invest.
   
• More corporations come into existence every day. International trade connections are increasing.
   
• More CEOs, previously skeptical, are reading about business leaders they respect adopting Bitcoin. More junior employees are finding their managers more receptive to the idea.
   
• More accountants are learning about sophisticated ways to use Bitcoin and eliminate middlemen that cost their companies real money every day.

It is true that most people holding Bitcoin today are doing so as speculation but the useful consequence of that is that it creates a market and attaches a lot of value to each Bitcoin, and the value of the entire pool keeps increasing. When you have a pool of $1 trillion it provides room for fairly large transactions to occur without destabilizing the price. The worry Elon Musk expressed on Twitter, about whether a transaction of the size that would be useful to him was even possible, was resolved when his $1.5 bn purchase was completed promptly via just one exchange (Coinbase).

So, size itself makes certain things possible, and those are precisely the things that large corporations and financial houses need.

The "adoption phase" is about discovering the many different things that Bitcoin will end up being used for. Each new use creates more demand. The corporations buying now at $52k are, yes, speculating, but they are also diversifying their cash and cash-equivalent reserves, something that few individual Bitcoin owners would ever think about. That functionality is of actual use to them, it has a value.

Corporations hold an astonishing amount of the value on our planet. If sticking a billion or two into Bitcoin becomes a trend - and I think that is already starting to happen - we are going to see a far steadier upward pull on the price. Most businesses are naturally conservative - and, initially, embracing Bitcoin will be a way for some corporations to signal that they are not conservative - so, it will take well over a decade for the idea to filter through to all businesses, in all industries, in all countries. Slow and steady, but without the sharp fallbacks of the past, we are in different territory now, a far bigger territory, and Bitcoin will continue becoming a bigger, more useful pool for the giants to swim in.

 

1 hour ago, Peter Denis said:

The main concern would be that national governments could make Bitcoin-trading illegal, but with large organizations now stepping into it, that risk is getting smaller.

Yes, absolutely. I would say it actually cannot happen now.

Government approaches to Bitcoin will reflect their current approach to fiat money. They will encourage it but become very good at taxing normal citizens, while corporations will become very good at shifting it around beyond any particular country's system.

No serious, pragmatic government, however, is going to ban or even want to be perceived as not understanding Bitcoin.

Even if a few tinpot countries such as India do, it might stunt retail investors (who are increasingly less important anyway) but there will always be people in every town and city,  in every country, willing to exchange fiat cash for Bitcoin. In a sense, the more a country cracks down upon its own citizens, the more desperate they become to get their family savings out of that system. We have seen the effect of that on the price of Bitcoin most clearly in the cases of Venezuela and China. Attempts to control fuel the growth of mirror black economies, most likely wired together by Bitcoin.

The world is heading into a decade of disruption, economic instability, and unprecedented value creation, all happening at the same time. All of those things will ultimately lift Bitcoin far beyond being just some speculative asset. It will become another foundational layer in the global financial infrastructure. It genuinely staggers me that so few people can see where we are going in just the next few years.

 

Edited February 18, 2021 by donnacha

[Misty]

1 hour ago, Peter Denis said:

The main concern would be that national governments could make Bitcoin-trading illegal, but with large organizations now stepping into it, that risk is getting smaller.

 

 

Not sure there's any need to make it illegal, unless the trading will somehow sabotage the real economy. 

 

Still, there are many other measures that could be taken that bitcoin enthusiasts may not like, that could diminish all the speculative interest. For example, first, make ownership reportable to tax authorities. Later, tax ownership like a US PFIC.

 

Real digital currencies are almost certain to enter the picture in a bigger way. This may take some of the fluff out of bitcoin's appeal. Some day maybe those who are interested in socially responsible/ environmentally friendly investing will also start to realize that "mining" something that is inherently worthless in a highly carbon-emission producing manner is maybe not such a good idea.

 

 

[mjnaus]

46 minutes ago, Misty said:

Institutions may "participate" in some way as long as they can make money - for example, helping people "store" (hoard) or maybe trade it.  Will bitcoin be used for transactions?   Not really - not as long as there's an expectation that its price in real currencies will keep going up.  That's the real appeal here.  Bitcoin enthusiasts won't use it for transactions. 

 

Who cares, honestly? Why the need to continue hammering on the fact that Bitcoin does not (currently) work as a currency. Who gives a <deleted>? It's has proven itself to be a store of value and has reached mainstream adoption through that path. By doing so, it has opened the door for other crypto solutions to improve on Bitcoins shortfalls as a currency. There's a variety of stablecoins out there today that have the potential to serve as currency (some might argue that Tether, USDC, DAI are already doing so). 

 

Believe it or not, the crypto world is larger than just Bitcoin. It's proven itself useful for a variety of solutions, in particular Decentralized Finance (currently TVL north of $40 billion).

[Misty]

3 minutes ago, mjnaus said:

 

Who cares, honestly? Why the need to continue hammering on the fact that Bitcoin does not (currently) work as a currency. Who gives a <deleted>? It's has proven itself to be a store of value and has reached mainstream adoption through that path. By doing so, it has opened the door for other crypto solutions to improve on Bitcoins shortfalls as a currency. There's a variety of stablecoins out there today that have the potential to serve as currency (some might argue that Tether, USDC, DAI are already doing so). 

 

Believe it or not, the crypto world is larger than just Bitcoin. It's proven itself useful for a variety of solutions, in particular Decentralized Finance (currently TVL north of $40 billion).

 

Completely agree with it not being a currency (and never will be).  Bitcoin is only a store of value as in my toe nails are stores of value, since I will charge 100 bitcoin per nail today, and 200 bitcoin tomorrow. 

 

My point being, "store of value" is an illusion if no one transacts.

[donnacha]

20 hours ago, allanos said:

Quote: The final Bitcoin will be mined in 2040. I think this may have been a typo.  In point of fact, as halving events take place and future mining difficulty is adjusted, it is expected that the last of 21 million Bitcoins will be mined exactly one hundred years later, in 2140.

Yup, a typo, thanks. I have a bad habit of typing too fast and, then, being too lazy to go back and check thoroughly for errors.

By the way, thanks for your posts in this thread. Insightful, informed, and well-written, a pleasure to read them.

 

[Mr Meeseeks]

2 hours ago, patman30 said:

"Crypto" will collapse
Only Bitcoin will survive
and BTC is NOT Bitcoin

DYOR.

CSW is not Satoshi FYI. 

 

He's a fakir. 

[donnacha]

35 minutes ago, Misty said:

Real digital currencies are almost certain to enter the picture in a bigger way. This may take some of the fluff out of bitcoin's appeal.

With respect, this is the dumbest thing anyone has said in this thread.

By "real digital currencies", I presume you mean digital versions of the existing fiat currencies, which will become debased just as rapidly as their paper equivalents.

You have posted a lot in this thread, so, presumably you are interested in the subject. The fact that you think that it would be good to have a digital currency stripped of the very things that make Bitcoin such a technological marvel suggests, however, that you really have no idea what Bitcoin is. I don't say that to be nasty. Rather, if you are interested in the subject, I would urge you take the time to learn, with an open mind, what Bitcoin is, and what it does that is so different to previous money systems. It will blow your mind once you grasp the implications.

 

Edited February 18, 2021 by donnacha

[Misty]

6 minutes ago, donnacha said:

With respect, this is the dumbest thing anyone has said in this thread.

By "real digital currencies", I presume you mean digital versions of the existing fiat currencies, which will become debased just as rapidly as their paper equivalents.

You have posted a lot in this thread, so, presumably you are interested in the subject. The fact that you think that it would be good to have a digital currency stripped of the very things that make Bitcoin such a technological marvel suggests, however, that you really have no idea what Bitcoin is. I don't say that to be nasty. Rather, if you are interested in the subject, I would urge you take the time to learn, with an open mind, what Bitcoin is, and what it does that is so different to previous money systems. It will blow your mind once you grasp the implications.

 

Right back at you:  outside of the "technological marvel" - you really have no idea what Bitcoin is - in terms of the money and banking system.  I have studied bitcoin for many years, and money and banking for decades, thank you.

[donnacha]

Just now, Misty said:

I have studied bitcoin for many years, and money and banking for decades, thank you.

No. You really have not.

[Misty]

Just now, donnacha said:

No. You really have not.

 

: )  I think we have never met, have we?

[Mr Meeseeks]

1 minute ago, Misty said:

Right back at you:  outside of the "technological marvel" - you really have no idea what Bitcoin is - in terms of the money and banking system.  I have studied bitcoin for many years, and money and banking for decades, thank you.

The banking system is being replaced with decentralisation. Fiat money is being replaced by cryptocurrency.

 

Inflationary Keynesian economics are flawed and obsolete.

[Misty]

1 minute ago, Mr Meeseeks said:

The banking system is being replaced with decentralisation. Fiat money is being replaced by cryptocurrency.

 

Inflationary Keynesian economics are flawed and obsolete.

 

Right.  Please show your work and provide examples.

[MikeyIdea]

Disaster of course

[donnacha]

9 minutes ago, Misty said:

: )  I think we have never met, have we?

No, I don't think so, but I base my conclusion on your posts throughout this thread.

It would be quite possible for someone with an understanding of Bitcoin to dislike it, for many reasons, but the ideas you express are all based on a very basic and fundamental misunderstanding of what it is.

It is like hearing someone say that cars are bad because they have to kill hundreds of horses to give the engines horsepower. He could tell me that he has studied car engines for decades, and knows more about cars than anyone else, but ... no. Sometimes complete nonsense is too obvious to even argue about.

Seriously, think about actually learning about Bitcoin. It is actually more enjoyable and less difficult than you fear. Then you can put some gunpowder behind your arguments.

 

Edited February 18, 2021 by donnacha

[Misty]

Just now, donnacha said:

No, I don't think so, but I base my conclusion on your posts throughout this thread.

It would be quite possible for someone with an understanding of Bitcoin to dislike it, for many reasons, but the ideas you express are all based on a very basic and very obvious misunderstanding.

It is like hearing someone say that cars are bad because they have to kill hundreds of horses to give the engines horsepower. He could tell me that he has studied car engines for decades, and knows more about cars than anyone else, but ... no. Sometimes complete nonsense is too obvious to even argue about.

Seriously, think about actually learning about Bitcoin. It is actually more enjoyable and less difficult than you think. Then you can put some gunpowder behind your arguments.
 

 

Bless your heart.

[Mr Meeseeks]

4 minutes ago, Misty said:

 

Right.  Please show your work and provide examples.

The examples are right in front of your nose and happening now.

 

The West is in trillions upon trillions in debt

US Govt. printing money to pay the debt (there is no other way to service it other than war and annulment - 25% of all USD in circulation was printed this year) 

Fiat currency devaluing steadily while inflation continues to increase price of goods and services 

Spending does not equal economic growth

 

It's over mate, we now know the current system has failed. Since 2008 they have been putting a band aid on a fatal bullet wound. There's no way out.

 

What will happen next?

 

Those with real world assets; Bitcoin, gold, silver, real estate etc. will be relatively unscathed longer term

Stimulus will keep people going short term

Economic catastrophy as the majority learn they have been duped and have nothing

Keynesians will advocate more wars

Failure of major banks and economic institutions (see Argentina and Venezuela) 

Etc.

[mjnaus]

39 minutes ago, donnacha said:

With respect, this is the dumbest thing anyone has said in this thread.

Not a “dumb” thing to say at all. Perhaps you should do your own research before suggesting others to dig deeper. 
 

Whether you like it or not, fiat pegged stablecoins have been growing in adoption faster than any other crypto currency. In fact Tether settles more transactions at the moment than Bitcoin does. USDC is not far behind. 
 

I consider this to be a good thing though... this might very well be the only way for crypto in general to gain mainstream adoption. In addition, these stablecoins function as an on-ramp

into the world of DeFi.  

[John Drake]

One thing is clear to me after reading several of the posts in this topic: Bitcoin is  a cult.

[donnacha]

1 minute ago, mjnaus said:

Whether you like it or not, fiat pegged stablecoins have been growing in adoption faster than any other crypto currency.

Stablecoins are largely used for the continual settlement and arbitrage between exchanges. Of course they are growing as Bitcoin and the rest of the crypto market is growing.

He was not, however, talking about stablecoins. He was suggesting, ludicrously, that Bitcoin would lose its popularity once the governments introduce their "real digital currencies". This is someone who is unable to imagine that a currency could be real unless it is controlled by a government. I called it the dumbest thing said on this thread - and there was a lot of competition for that crown - because he has not a clue what the whole point of Bitcoin is. No one else managed to out themselves quite as spectacularly as that.

[Mansell]

So people on here are bagging on paper money......but the value of their precious Bite-me-coin is pegged to the dollar. If you cash in you end up with dollars. I know some places will take the Coin, but at some point it will tank or completely crash and the rats will be running for their dollars. Like somebody said it seems to be a a Pyramid or Ponzi Scheme. The old saying, “If it seems to good to be true, it is.” The folks who got in early will win, but the folks who got in later investing big money will probably end up with little money. 
I have friends espousing the Coin and defending it, but they haven’t invested.

What is supporting the Coin....a wish and a prayer. Some people are saying you need to have Faith in it.....I think that says it all.

[mjnaus]

22 minutes ago, John Drake said:

One thing is clear to me after reading several of the posts in this topic: Bitcoin is  a cult

One could just as well say the same about the anti-crypto crowd. 

[donnacha]

13 minutes ago, Mansell said:

...but the value of their precious Bite-me-coin is pegged to the dollar.

Good God, another one.

Bitcoin is not pegged to the dollar. That is the whole point. Corporations are moving some of their cash reserves out of dollars and into Bitcoin as a way to hedge against the debasement of the dollar.

 

[fdsa]

a food for thought:

 

google:// which country produces bitcoin mining equipment

 

google:// which country has the largest bitcoin mining power

 

google:// which country buys most bitcoin

 

 

America has a long history of buying Chinese cráp

[dabhand]

I'm going all in on TulipCoins. What could go wrong?

 

https://tulipcoins.github.io/

[tjo o tjim]

On 2/16/2021 at 4:08 PM, Mr Meeseeks said:

Bitcoin - 

Capped supply of 21 million (there will never be more)

Backed by the biggest network in the World (the internet of money)

Not controlled by anyone

You directly own and are responsible for your own funds (no need to trust a third party)

Extremely hard to steal from someone

No banks or third parties required

Can be used as a totally secure store of value

Can send almost instantly to anyone anywhere in the World without the need for a third party

Trust-less (no need to trust anyone else)

Network can never be taken offline, hacked or stopped

Pseudonymous (similar to an IP address)

All transactions are recorded on an immutable ledger (no good for criminals)

The practical issues are that the exchanges are anything but trustworthy or reliable, it is easy enough to lose your wallet access, and most importantly the 51% attack vector for transaction reversal.

 

When BTC gets too hot all those issues become a major challenge for the sustainability of the system/