SURVEY: Should Scotland seek independence from the UK?

[Surelynot]

5 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

The Scots themselves don't want a referendum.

They voted 55% to Remain in 2014.

Maybe you should respect their wishes.

Not sure......but I think I have seen this posted before???

[JonnyF]

4 minutes ago, Surelynot said:

Not sure......but I think I have seen this posted before???

If you don't like to see repetition and circular reasoning you might be in the wrong thread.

[Surelynot]

1 minute ago, JonnyF said:

If you don't like to see repetition and circular reasoning you might be in the wrong thread.

Hesitation?

[vogie]

24 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Your attempts at amelioration are genuinely not a good look, Vogie. To try to liken ALL foreigners being required to carry papers in a foreign country with the proposal by our government that only certain specific sections of our own countrymen must comply with the same requirements or face jail is patent nonsense. 

But it is entirely relevant this thread. I can understand your wish to not have it spoken about, but as we were discussing how Brexit is motivating more and more Scots to want to leave the union, and as Brexit was marketed as a racist endeavour with our politicians fanning those flames, the slow descent into genuine fascist state continues - hence the relevance to this topic.

Fine words butter no parsnips, the top and bottom of it is, I knew the rules of the Thai Kingdom before I made my mind up to live here, but wouldn't it be hypocritical of me to move here and to start moaning that now I don't repect those rules, it is no hardship for anyone except for the people who try to turn everything into something it really isn't.

Every country has rules and if we don't like those rules we have two choices, follow those rules or don't, if you don't, be prepared for the consequences. Simples.

[Rookiescot]

1 hour ago, JonnyF said:

The Scots themselves don't want a referendum.

They voted 55% to Remain in 2014.

Maybe you should respect their wishes.

In 1975 we had a referendum on remaining in the EU. 67% voted to remain and 33% voted to leave.

Why was that referendum not respected?

But do please carry on telling the Scots what they want and if they can have it. I'm sure the views of English right wing Brexiteer nationalists will register deeply with them.

[JonnyF]

18 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

In 1975 we had a referendum on remaining in the EU. 67% voted to remain and 33% voted to leave.

Why was that referendum not respected?

But do please carry on telling the Scots what they want and if they can have it. I'm sure the views of English right wing Brexiteer nationalists will register deeply with them.

It was respected for 41 years. Some might say, 'a generation'. Some might say even longer than that.

Maybe Scotland should follow the same precedent and have Indyref2 in 2055? Sounds fair. 

Maybe there would be an appetite for it from the Scottish people by then, because there certainly isn't now as recent polls have shown. Only the hard left Scottish nationalist SNP diehard fanatics seem to want one now and they are the minority. So the Scots don't want it, the UK government doesn't want it. So why should it happen?

The silent majority should never pander to a vocal minority.

 

[bkkcanuck8]

18 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

It was respected for 41 years. Some might say, 'a generation'. Some might say even longer than that.

Maybe Scotland should follow the same precedent and have Indyref2 in 2055? Sounds fair. 

Maybe there would be an appetite for it from the Scottish people by then, because there certainly isn't now as recent polls have shown. Only the hard left Scottish nationalist SNP diehard fanatics seem to want one now and they are the minority. So the Scots don't want it, the UK government doesn't want it. So why should it happen?

The silent majority should never pander to a vocal minority.

 

Or the standard could be 7 years as it is in Northern Ireland... but then it should not be up go non-Scottish what the standard is -- it should be up to Scotland...  As far as silent majority/vocal minority - a referendum quashes that by requiring a majority to win.

Edited March 16, 2021 by bkkcanuck8

[JonnyF]

8 minutes ago, bkkcanuck8 said:

Or the standard could be 7 years as it is in Northern Ireland... but then it should not be up go non-Scottish what the standard is -- it should be up to Scotland...  As far as silent majority/vocal minority - a referendum quashes that by requiring a majority to win.

Yes it should be up to Scotland. And they don't want one right now. They want to leave it a few years and who are we to argue with the Scots?

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/19159508.scottish-independence-quarter-scots-support-indyref2-next-year-poll-suggests/

 

[Rookiescot]

17 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

It was respected for 41 years. Some might say, 'a generation'. Some might say even longer than that.

Maybe Scotland should follow the same precedent and have Indyref2 in 2055? Sounds fair. 

Maybe there would be an appetite for it from the Scottish people by then, because there certainly isn't now as recent polls have shown. Only the hard left Scottish nationalist SNP diehard fanatics seem to want one now and they are the minority. So the Scots don't want it, the UK government doesn't want it. So why should it happen?

The silent majority should never pander to a vocal minority.

 

We will find out in May what Scotland wants and we will act upon that. What the hard right English nationalist Brexiteer fanatical UK government wants is asinine. 

A country should never be dictated to by another foreign nation.

[Rookiescot]

2 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

Yes it should be up to Scotland. And they don't want one right now. They want to leave it a few years and who are we to argue with the Scots?

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/19159508.scottish-independence-quarter-scots-support-indyref2-next-year-poll-suggests/

 

Did you read past the headline?

The Panelbase poll for the Sunday Times found 25% supported holding a referendum in the next 12 months.

Some 30% said they would support a referendum in the next two to five years while 45% agreed with the statement “there should not be another Scottish independence referendum in the next few years”.

So 55% want a referendum within 5 years.

Only 45% do not want another referendum.

What was it you were saying about vocal minorities?

[JonnyF]

3 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

We will find out in May what Scotland wants and we will act upon that. What the hard right English nationalist Brexiteer fanatical UK government wants is asinine. 

A country should never be dictated to by another foreign nation.

Parliament is sovereign. They will decide, not some amnesiac tinpot wannabe dictator like sturgeon.

[Rookiescot]

Just now, JonnyF said:

Parliament is sovereign. They will decide, not some amnesiac tinpot wannabe dictator like sturgeon.

In Scotland the people are Sovereign. The laws regarding sovereignty in a foreign country do not matter.

[JonnyF]

2 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Did you read past the headline?

The Panelbase poll for the Sunday Times found 25% supported holding a referendum in the next 12 months.

Some 30% said they would support a referendum in the next two to five years while 45% agreed with the statement “there should not be another Scottish independence referendum in the next few years”.

So 55% want a referendum within 5 years.

Only 45% do not want another referendum.

What was it you were saying about vocal minorities?

Yes I read it. So let's forget about it for a few years as per the wishes of the Scottish people.

If they still want one in a few years I am sure that Parliament will consider it.

[Rookiescot]

1 minute ago, JonnyF said:

Yes I read it. So let's forget about it for a few years as per the wishes of the Scottish people.

If they still want one in a few years I am sure that Parliament will consider it.

If we vote for one in May then parliament has nothing to consider. The people of Scotland will have spoken. 

[JonnyF]

2 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

In Scotland the people are Sovereign. The laws regarding sovereignty in a foreign country do not matter.

The UK Parliament will decide if and when you get your referendum. 

Why should they go against the wishes of the Scottish people and hold it now? That doesn't seem very fair.

[JonnyF]

1 minute ago, Rookiescot said:

If we vote for one in May then parliament has nothing to consider. The people of Scotland will have spoken. 

You are not voting for a referendum. You are voting on a whole host of issues, of which the referendum is one.

[Rookiescot]

Just now, JonnyF said:

The UK Parliament will decide if and when you get your referendum. 

Why should they go against the wishes of the Scottish people and hold it now? That doesn't seem very fair.

If people vote for one in May will they go against the wishes of the Scottish people? That doesnt seem very fair.

[Rookiescot]

1 minute ago, JonnyF said:

You are not voting for a referendum. You are voting on a whole host of issues, of which the referendum is one.

So even though Cameron won by promising an EU referendum there should not have been one?

[JonnyF]

1 minute ago, Rookiescot said:

If people vote for one in May will they go against the wishes of the Scottish people? That doesnt seem very fair.

The vote in May isn't a vote to have a referendum this year. 

[Rookiescot]

Just now, JonnyF said:

The vote in May isn't a vote to have a referendum this year. 

It will be up to the Scottish government to decide that.

[RayC]

23 minutes ago, bkkcanuck8 said:

Or the standard could be 7 years as it is in Northern Ireland... but then it should not be up go non-Scottish what the standard is -- it should be up to Scotland...  As far as silent majority/vocal minority - a referendum quashes that by requiring a majority to win.

What is this 'standard' of 7 years in NI that you refer to?

[JonnyF]

5 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

So even though Cameron won by promising an EU referendum there should not have been one?

That was up to Parliament. 

Parliament is sovereign.

[JonnyF]

5 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

It will be up to the Scottish government to decide that.

No, it will be up to the UK Parliament, in which Scotland is represented.

[Rookiescot]

Just now, JonnyF said:

No, it will be up to the UK Parliament, in which Scotland is represented.

No Scotland can decide to have a referendum anyway. Now the right wing English nationalist Brexiteer government in Westminster can challenge that but it will be done under Scottish law. In Scotland the people are sovereign.

Johnson will have to argue that democracy is a bad thing and should be stopped.

Good luck with that. 

[bkkcanuck8]

7 minutes ago, RayC said:

What is this 'standard' of 7 years in NI that you refer to?

Good Friday Agreement enshrined into the Northern Ireland constitution states that if deemed likely (likely would mean close - since it also indicates what happens if it fails) a referendum is to be called... and if the referendum is defeated, at least 7 years must pass before a new referendum can be held.

[Sujo]

1 hour ago, JonnyF said:

It was respected for 41 years. Some might say, 'a generation'. Some might say even longer than that.

Maybe Scotland should follow the same precedent and have Indyref2 in 2055? Sounds fair. 

Maybe there would be an appetite for it from the Scottish people by then, because there certainly isn't now as recent polls have shown. Only the hard left Scottish nationalist SNP diehard fanatics seem to want one now and they are the minority. So the Scots don't want it, the UK government doesn't want it. So why should it happen?

The silent majority should never pander to a vocal minority.

 

Or maybe they should have one whenever they want. Their country, up to them.

[Sujo]

28 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

The UK Parliament will decide if and when you get your referendum. 

Why should they go against the wishes of the Scottish people and hold it now? That doesn't seem very fair.

because the real poll, election will decide. If a party runs on a referendum vote is successful then the wish of the people should be followed.

[RayC]

13 minutes ago, bkkcanuck8 said:

Good Friday Agreement enshrined into the Northern Ireland constitution states that if deemed likely (likely would mean close - since it also indicates what happens if it fails) a referendum is to be called... and if the referendum is defeated, at least 7 years must pass before a new referendum can be held.

Thanks for the clarification. Imo seven years seems too short a period in the absence of any other significant event e.g. Brexit.

[Sujo]

1 minute ago, RayC said:

Thanks for the clarification. Imo seven years seems too short a period in the absence of any other significant event e.g. Brexit.

And because of that major significant event scotland should decide what it wants without another country saying it cannot.

[JonnyF]

17 minutes ago, Sujo said:

Or maybe they should have one whenever they want. Their country, up to them.

 

Parliament will decide.

Besides, it's clear that they don't want one for around 5 years. Perhaps they are smarter than I had given them credit for.