Moderna Insists to Directly Sell Covid-19 Vaccine to Thai Government

[WaveHunter]

7 minutes ago, fondue zoo said:

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/industry/healthcare/biotech/healthcare/private-cos-free-to-buy-vaccines-at-mkt-price-for-staff/articleshow/82189479.cms?from=mdr

 

It can be inferred that Moderna don't have the same rule for India.

It just seem to be nonsense that a Pharma company would refuse to do business with a major hospital.  Disingenuous remarks by prominent government officials insult the public's intelligence, and only foster distrust, which is clearly not needed at a time like this.

Edited May 4, 2021 by WaveHunter

[wasabi]

The key thing is "As soon as they have all the required documents." We who live here know in Thailand that is a moving goal post and often impossible. Moderna is not going to send photo copies and sign up for Mor Prom apps to appease some bizarre bureaucratic process. They will just move on to the next country.

 

Edited May 4, 2021 by wasabi

[up-country_sinclair]

10 minutes ago, WaveHunter said:

That's just plain nonsense that a Pharma company would refuse to do business with a major hospital, and it insults the public's intelligence to be told that.

 

No, I don't believe it is nonsense.  My understanding is that the Pharma companies are concerned about their liability exposure and that exposure is mitigated (and possibly eliminated) in the contracts they sign with governments.

But as I posted earlier, I don't see why the Pharma companies can't sell it to the government and the government can in turn sell it to private hospitals.

[BobBKK]

1 minute ago, up-country_sinclair said:

 

No, I don't believe it is nonsense.  My understanding is that the Pharma companies are concerned about their liability exposure and that exposure is mitigated (and possibly eliminated) in the contracts they sign with governments.

But as I posted earlier, I don't see why the Pharma companies can't sell it to the government and the government can in turn sell it to private hospitals.

 

Liability is with the hospitals too and if they accept that risk from a FDA (USA) company what's the delay?  we can all sign away our rights if we are in the 000000.1%

 

What you are saying is nonsense.

[xylophone]

1 hour ago, DLock said:

I also have no issues with the Government making a few dollars either.

As is often the case here in Thailand, my bet is that this is not about the government making a few dollars, but how some influential "army/politicians" can bolster their bank accounts with a little skimming or suchlike.

[BobBKK]

1 minute ago, xylophone said:

As is often the case here in Thailand, my bet is that this is not about the government making a few dollars, but how some influential "army/politicians" can bolster their bank accounts with a little skimming or suchlike.

 

No difference 

[connda]

11 hours ago, webfact said:

Representatives of Zuellig Pharma Ltd, the importer of Moderna vaccine in Thailand, insist that the manufacturer of Moderna vaccine is willing to sell its COVID-19 vaccine to the Thai government, but not directly to private companies.

If Moderna sells directly to private companies (private hospitals) outside of Thailand, then this is just a spun narrative. I hope they only sell to governments and not to private companies. I'd hate to think they have one set of sales criterion for Thailand and another for the rest of the world.  Then I'd have to question, "Why?"
This is such a duplicious world we exist in these sad times.

[connda]

7 hours ago, up-country_sinclair said:

Pharma companies are concerned about their liability exposure and that exposure is mitigated (and possibly eliminated) in the contracts they sign with governments.

Virtually every government on the planet has indemnified the vaccine manufacturer's from liability.  Which is sad.  Get sick and suffer physical damage as a result of vaccination and it's "So sad, too bad, sucks to be you." 
"Sue the government!", you say. 
Easier said then done.  Perhaps when pigs fly.

[morrobay]

44 minutes ago, WaveHunter said:

It just seem to be nonsense that a Pharma company would refuse to do business with a major hospital.  Disingenuous remarks by prominent government officials insult the public's intelligence, and only foster distrust, which is clearly not needed at a time like this.

Major hospital ?? How many hospitals are in Thailand . Each one of which will require import entries with customs. Much easier for the company to deal with one (government) buyer.

[WaveHunter]

37 minutes ago, up-country_sinclair said:

 

No, I don't believe it is nonsense.  My understanding is that the Pharma companies are concerned about their liability exposure and that exposure is mitigated (and possibly eliminated) in the contracts they sign with governments.

But as I posted earlier, I don't see why the Pharma companies can't sell it to the government and the government can in turn sell it to private hospitals.

That was actually the point I was trying to make; that the real issue is not whether the Pharmas are willing to sell direct to private hospitals (which they are apparently going to do in India) but whether or not the Thai government is going to procure all brands on behalf of the private hospitals.

 

For Thai officials to make this claim seems to be more a way to shift blame for the poor rollout to the Pharmas than where it rightly belongs.

 

Instead of giving a clear and concise detailed answers on whether the government will work with private hospitals, they go back and forth on this with very vague details that continue to change from one day to the next. 

 

Clearly there is something going on that has absolutely nothing to do with efficacy or safety.

[edwardandtubs]

No vaccine company right now is going to sell directly to a private hospital. Posters on this thread saying that must be living on another planet. How would they justify supplying rich Thais and expats while national governments who made contracts last year are still waiting for theirs, and developing countries are waiting to be supplied through the Covax scheme? Get this into your selfish heads: you're not going to buy your way to immunity, and rightly so!

[Blumpie]

Good!

These oligarchs cannot get rich off this pandemic.  And I"m sorry, expats, but they are directly trying to exploit anyone they can.  Double the price?  Triple it?  Make huge profits.

Meanwhile the poor suffer.  

This is a new low for this government.

[natway09]

This crowd have made it clear that they will sell  but only to the Government.

This means that the Government now has   to consult with Siam Biotech 

to see if they are allowed to import.

I think that is the way it is working, or not working

[Caldera]

What's the hold-up with the Thai FDA approval? How difficult can it be, considering how many other countries have already approved this very vaccine a long time ago.

[Thomas J]

49 minutes ago, Blumpie said:

Good!

These oligarchs cannot get rich off this pandemic.

Yes so much better that some people die from not getting the vaccine and of course in the meantime pass it along to others that may get sick and/or die rather than have someone who has a product that people want to use make money for providing it. 

[varun]

One word - Kickbacks

 

Brown envelopes baby - all those mia noi's need upkeep.

[DLock]

2 hours ago, Blumpie said:

Good!

These oligarchs cannot get rich off this pandemic.  And I"m sorry, expats, but they are directly trying to exploit anyone they can.  Double the price?  Triple it?  Make huge profits.

Meanwhile the poor suffer.  

This is a new low for this government.

 

All Thais and all foreigners residing in Thailand will be vaccinated free of charge - it may take a little longer, but you can register now for your vaccine.

 

If hospitals want to offer vaccines to people who don't want to wait, then there is going to be a cost associated with that.

 

I am highly critical of the Thai Governments vaccine speed and procurement (and Siam Bioscience), but I don't think paying more for my choice of vaccine ahead of when I can expect to get vaccinated is that bad.

 

 

[DrDave]

6 hours ago, ikke1959 said:

So what is the problem?? They can change a cabinet in 1 day but forms and approval of lifesaving drugs has to take weeks? months??? Get rid of these incompetent men asap. THey have a emergency decree to make quick decisions .. so show that that works now

Is there a delay because Thailand has more stringent requirements for clinical trials and analyses compared to all of the Western countries that approved this vaccine months ago?  Umm, no.  Why the delay, then?  Just issue an approval and get on with it.  

[WhiteBuffaloATM]

no need /no value for govt to interfere in private hospital vax purchase & jab completions

that can ONLY add cost / delay / politics to a simple & critical non- govt transaction.

[kingofthemountain]

17 minutes ago, DrDave said:

Is there a delay because Thailand has more stringent requirements for clinical trials and analyses compared to all of the Western countries that approved this vaccine months ago?  Umm, no.  Why the delay, then?  Just issue an approval and get on with it.  

There is a delay because Thailand has planned to produce AZ vaccine with SiamBioscience (The first vaccines doses are supposed to go out of the factory next month) so they don't want just now a competitor cutting their grass under their foot if you see what i mean

 

It's for economical reasons but above all for political reasons, of course if you know who is the owner of Siam Bioscience you know already i can not develop this subject further

Edited May 4, 2021 by kingofthemountain

[impulse]

4 hours ago, WaveHunter said:

Who cares whether the Pharma companies are unwilling to sell directly to private hospitals (probably not actually true).  That's not even the real the issue.

 

If the Pharma's were willing to sell to private entities, Wall Street banksters would have locked up the world supply for the next 10 years and they'd be trading $trillions of vaccine futures against people's lives.

 

 

[impulse]

33 minutes ago, DrDave said:

Is there a delay because Thailand has more stringent requirements for clinical trials and analyses compared to all of the Western countries that approved this vaccine months ago?  Umm, no.  Why the delay, then?  Just issue an approval and get on with it.  

 

Where's the crooked money in that?

 

[Patong2021]

It looks like many people are unaware of anti bribery/corruption laws that apply in developed world. No way the  companies wish to  be exposed to allegations of this kind because it is possible a  local sales rep could go bad and cost the  company hundreds of millions of EURO/$$ in fines  and penalties.

 

Also the companies are subject to shareholder and company code of conduct that requires ethical behavior. Moderna  accepted US government financing that allowed the final product and agreed to follow strict code of conduct requirement. These companies take it seriously.

 

6 hours ago, brucegoniners said:

Gee, I wonder who told them to say that.

I know for a fact that a private hospital in Bangkok had a deal in January to buy Moderna directly. My wife and I were on a waiting list. But the Thai government kept delaying things and now is insisting they control all vaccine distribution.

Control is the operative word.

There was no direct deal with Moderna. Any private sales would have to be approved by a long list of company units and  go right up to the board of directors.  If you think that the company was going to accept the risk of making a small sale to a hospital you are deluded.  There is absolutely no reason  for Moderna to sell to a Thai hospital when it has so many other more reliable and better  opportunities. Besides, all moderna vaccine is pre-purchased until the end of Q1-2022. The only way Thailand can access  the vaccine is if the USA or EU releases its guaranteed  deliveries.

I suggest you read the company code of conduct if you do not understand why  moderna would nto make small diretc sale to a region where corruption and bribery is a problem.

https://investors.modernatx.com/static-files/3f0eb528-5b75-41a3-9118-cef69897b80b

 

 

5 hours ago, ukrules said:

There's plenty of vaccines that need nothing more than regular fridge temperatures and more will be coming before the end of the year.

There's plenty of time for this process.

Really? Like which ones? Because  that is not true for Moderna or  Pfizer BioNTech.  Janssen vaccine is shipped in deep freeze and takes days to thaw.

Moderna Vaccine

Maximum shelf life is 7 months stored in a freezer at -25°C to -15°C

Do not store on dry ice or below -40 ºC

30 days at 2 to 8°C after thaw (assign immediately after removing from freezer)

Once removed from the fridge, may be stored between 8 to 25°C for up 12 hours

Once punctured, the vial must be used within 6 hours

Once thawed, the vaccine cannot be re-frozen

During storage keep vials in outer carton to protect from light

 

Maybe you think  Astra Zeneca is simple refrigeration yes? No, it is still difficult for hot country to manage.

AstraZeneca Vaccine

-Maximum shelf life is 6 months stored in a refrigerator between 2 to 8°C

Once removed from the fridge, may be stored between 2 to 25°C for up 6 hours

Once punctured, the vial must be used within 6 hours

Must not be frozen

During storage keep vials in outer carton to protect from light

 

Big problem of Thailand is cold chain delivery. they cannot keep large amounts at constant temperature. This is why frozen food  is of poor quality. Always freeze, thaw freeze cycle.

 

 

4 hours ago, WaveHunter said:

It just seem to be nonsense that a Pharma company would refuse to do business with a major hospital.  Disingenuous remarks by prominent government officials insult the public's intelligence, and only foster distrust, which is clearly not needed at a time like this.

Why would a large  company subject to strict regulatory oversight, with multiple guaranteed large contracts from  governments which to take on a small insignificant direct sale to a hospital in thailand? The risk isn't worth it.

[Patong2021]

35 minutes ago, DrDave said:

Is there a delay because Thailand has more stringent requirements for clinical trials and analyses compared to all of the Western countries that approved this vaccine months ago?  Umm, no.  Why the delay, then?  Just issue an approval and get on with it.  

 

Moderna does not wish to sell direct to small buyers. The costs and risk is too much and not needed.

[CLW]

Doesn't sound "directly" to me, the way vaccines have to go through in Thailand to the patient.

 

In case of vaccine produced outside of Thailand, you'll have the manufacturer, the Thai importer, the GPO (which in fact is a private company not a government entity) and then finally the Ministry of Public Health or private hospitals. In case of small private hospitals they might need to use a re-seller agent again.

Far too many hands involved and everyone wants to make profit AND delaying the whole process.

 

You can think about the Covid situation overseas, and yes, this is Thailand and not a developed western country, but I can tell you in Germany the procurement of vaccines is straightforward. Government orders directly from manufacturer, the army and public services take care of the logistics and distribution, every hospital or clinic gets the vaccine for free. END

[Elkski]

13 hours ago, up-country_sinclair said:

 

No, I don't believe it is nonsense.  My understanding is that the Pharma companies are concerned about their liability exposure and that exposure is mitigated (and possibly eliminated) in the contracts they sign with governments.

But as I posted earlier, I don't see why the Pharma companies can't sell it to the government and the government can in turn sell it to private hospitals.

This is the real reason.  The contracts contain a no fault full indemnity clause for any I'll effects.  Drug companies don't want any liability.  

But also I'm sure many piggies are looking at this fat pie and it appears they can't make up their minds on how to fight over it. 

[NoshowJones]

18 hours ago, robblok said:

Besides if the government makes some money (not the ministers themselves) who would care. I certainly would not. What you said makes a lot sense. Let the government buy it and distribute it to private hospitals.

That would be fine Rob, but not if it was a licence for the top brass in the private hospitals to become mega rich with the vaccine costing upwards of 5000Bt per shot. A fair profit is fine, but there has to be away of stopping the greed of these private hospitals. 

[Neeranam]

20 hours ago, robblok said:

I don't trust the government much but this can be true if the producers are saying so. It makes sense to sell to just governments as the shipments are larger then. So instead of negotiating with small parties they just sell to a government. 

 

If it had just come from the Thai government id have my doubts but with them saying it too and just some logic business thinking it makes sense.

Of course, yet the usual number of impatient, frustrated foreigners blame the government.  

[Neeranam]

20 hours ago, brucegoniners said:

Gee, I wonder who told them to say that.

 

I know for a fact that a private hospital in Bangkok had a deal in January to buy Moderna directly. My wife and I were on a waiting list. But the Thai government kept delaying things and now is insisting they control all vaccine distribution.

 

Control is the operative word.

Do you think it right if private hospitals buy all the vaccine while the majority of the population can't get it? 

[robblok]

7 minutes ago, possum1931 said:

That would be fine Rob, but not if it was a licence for the top brass in the private hospitals to become mega rich with the vaccine costing upwards of 5000Bt per shot. A fair profit is fine, but there has to be away of stopping the greed of these private hospitals. 

You do know that there are more costs to the vaccine then just acquiring it ?

Storage, payment for part of hospital upkeep, nurse giving the shot, administrator registering it, marketing, follow up and then profit. Its a bit easy to say the price of the product is xxx so it can't be more then this. There are more costs involved in it then just the price of the shot.

 

I have no idea what a fair price is as I don't know what they will be paying for just the vaccine. But the difference between what they pay and what they sell it for is certainly not all profit.