Pattaya A Dead or Dying City?

[Logosone]

I hope it works to start luxury condo projects in Pattaya. Because the area has so long been a favourite for expats a lot of the houses are dated and you don't see a lot of these new modern villas which abound in Koh Samui. Pattaya could do with a bit of luxury housing. Not the shoe box condos, but real luxury modern houses are in short supply in Pattaya.

[Susco]

39 minutes ago, newnative said:

But, with many of the newer projects, multiple units were bought by some buyers to rent out as illegal short-term hotel rooms.  I know of at least one case where an owner had bought 30 units or more.  With no international tourists, most of these units are sitting empty.  

 

You are in this trade, so you know very well what is going on.

 

From the newer projects, a high percentage was sold on finance, mainly developer finance, as they were desperate to load off their units.

 

I'm curious to know how much of his finance the guy with the 30 empty units has paid over the last 18 months, and how the developer gonna absorb this, because his finance with the bank has still to be paid.

 

You also know that what I mention here was the death sentence for New Nordic, but he will not be the last one

[kingofthemountain]

1 hour ago, newnative said:

      You may not 'see the point' but it's the developers who do see the point and are building 'all these condos'.   As I said in my earlier post, most of the projects in Pattaya have been successful.  The developers have, so far, been able to find buyers for what they build.  Even now, a huge, new luxury project--Arom Wongamat--is getting started.  50 stories proposed with a starting price of around 6MB for the smallest unit size.  Will it be able to find enough buyers?  Time will tell.  

Again you missed my point

the problem is most of these buildings are empty shells

with nobody living inside, that's not really a problem when

the tourism is flowing, because short timers make up the difference

but actually if you live here you can see how Pattaya is depopulated

with not even enough people to sustain most of the local businesses

[Johnny Mac]

2 hours ago, newnative said:

     Even pre-covid, the old chestnut of lights on at night was not a good indicator for condo sales.  (Although it can be a good indicator for hotels.  I now look out from my condo and I can check how some of the big north Pattaya hotels are doing.)  

    Many condos are owned by absentee owners.  I used to live at Lumpini Park Beach and my condo looked out at Building C--thirty stories of mostly 28sqm condos, about 10 or 12 on each side per floor.  Ideal for weekends at the beach.   So, around 300 condo windows I was looking at--and usually maybe 6 or 8 windows lit at night during the week.  I could tell the units were sold because almost all the windows had a wide variety of window treatments--except a few units here and there that hadn't been sold.  

    1800 units at the 3 building project and in those days of few illegal daily rentals they only had to put out about a dozen sun lounges at each of the two pools.  This was just before Airbnb took off and most of the condos were owned by Bangkok owners--who hardly ever came except on holiday weekends.  

    I think with older projects you will see more than 5 to 10% occupation.  But, with many of the newer projects, multiple units were bought by some buyers to rent out as illegal short-term hotel rooms.  I know of at least one case where an owner had bought 30 units or more.  With no international tourists, most of these units are sitting empty.  

That is a long post to say pretty much nothing at all.

[Olmate]

16 minutes ago, Johnny Mac said:

That is a long post to say pretty much nothing at all.

You did it in 2 lines.Well done! 

[Johnny Mac]

3 minutes ago, Olmate said:

You did it in 2 lines.Well done! 

Exactly!

[thaibeachlovers]

4 hours ago, kingofthemountain said:

 

My question wasn't if someone will buy it or not

i was specifically asking for what use all of these condos were?

I mean most of them are empty all year long

yes i agree it's good to not have neighbours

but still, it doesn't make any sense

the rents are very cheap, there are hotels rooms available everywhere

for all the budgets so if you come from Bkk time ot time

or if you live overseas most of the time, what is the point to buy your own condo?

I don't know any owners to ask, but it may be for the same reason that some sucker was always buying a bar that was doomed to fail.

They might have thought they'd get rich renting them out, but if so, they must be having regrets at the moment- best laid plans and all that.

 

As for the buildings that allow illegal short term Air B and B rentals, that's only going to last till the government decides to stop it.

[newnative]

4 hours ago, kingofthemountain said:

Again you missed my point

the problem is most of these buildings are empty shells

with nobody living inside, that's not really a problem when

the tourism is flowing, because short timers make up the difference

but actually if you live here you can see how Pattaya is depopulated

with not even enough people to sustain most of the local businesses

What projects have 'nobody living inside'?  

[Caldera]

My take is that Pattaya is neither dead nor dying, it's merely hibernating due to the pandemic - just like countless other tourist resorts all over the world.

 

I'm sure Pattaya, the city as a whole, will be just fine once the pandemic has run its course. Sadly, the same cannot be said about many businesses though. Others will move in to replace those that have closed in many cases, and there will be many new faces.

Edited May 17, 2021 by Caldera

[kingofthemountain]

1 hour ago, newnative said:

What projects have 'nobody living inside'?  

''Nobody'' was probably not the right word, no need to be anal on

the vocabulary as i am sure that you see what i mean:

a building is depopulated when you have less 5 to 10% annual occupancy rate

 like in most of the recent big towers, few names come to my mind:

Centric sea, Unixx, The base, Supalai mare in Pattaya

all the big towers in Naklua, jomtiem and Na Jomtiem

(I don't list all of the names here, it will be quickly boring, there are so many of them)

 

 

[newnative]

1 hour ago, kingofthemountain said:

''Nobody'' was probably not the right word, no need to be anal on

the vocabulary as i am sure that you see what i mean:

a building is depopulated when you have less 5 to 10% annual occupancy rate

 like in most of the recent big towers, few names come to my mind:

Centric sea, Unixx, The base, Supalai mare in Pattaya

all the big towers in Naklua, jomtiem and Na Jomtiem

(I don't list all of the names here, it will be quickly boring, there are so many of them)

 

 

       Well, there is covid going on with no international tourists.   Of course there will be fewer occupants than normal--and even in normal times most Pattaya condo projects aren't very full because of absentee owners.    I was just in Centric last week waiting for a termite inspector for a friend's condo and there was a fairly steady stream of people  going in and out of the lobby.  It certainly was not deserted.  Probably the same for most of the other condos you mentioned, as it is with my condo project.  

[kingofthemountain]

10 minutes ago, newnative said:

       Well, there is covid going on with no international tourists.   Of course there will be fewer occupants than normal--and even in normal times most Pattaya condo projects aren't very full because of absentee owners.    I was just in Centric last week waiting for a termite inspector for a friend's condo and there was a fairly steady stream of people  going in and out of the lobby.  It certainly was not deserted.  Probably the same for most of the other condos you mentioned, as it is with my condo project.  

 

Well i could be wrong and you could be right

you are probably better informed than me being in the business

imo the next year should be decisive for the city

even if in theory a building can stay afloat with a very low occupancy rate

as long as the owners paid the building maintenance fees

 

[kingofthemountain]

1 hour ago, Caldera said:

My take is that Pattaya is neither dead nor dying, it's merely hibernating due to the pandemic - just like countless other tourist resorts all over the world.

 

I'm sure Pattaya, the city as a whole, will be just fine once the pandemic has run its course. Sadly, the same cannot be said about many businesses though. Others will move in to replace those that have closed in many cases, and there will be many new faces.

you are right, the city is not going to disapear

however the place has already been hit very hard

and it's far from being the end of the tunnel

 

A short video about some locations in Pattaya

for the ones not being here, it gives a good idea of the actual disaster:

 

 

[thaibeachlovers]

5 hours ago, kingofthemountain said:

you are right, the city is not going to disapear

however the place has already been hit very hard

and it's far from being the end of the tunnel

 

A short video about some locations in Pattaya

for the ones not being here, it gives a good idea of the actual disaster:

 

 

While I'm not in Pattaya to look for myself, I imagine the areas outside the tourist area are surviving fine- ie the residential areas. Pattaya no longer consists of only the tourist area, but many posters seem to ignore that there is a massive part of Pattaya where they will never go eg I've never visited the dark side.

IMO the entire tourist area could vanish and the rest of Pattaya would carry on without it quite nicely.

[chicowoodduck]

18 hours ago, kingofthemountain said:

Are you a bar owner in this area by any chance ?

Not by a long shot, just a keen observer with my finger on the pulse.....????????

[jacko45k]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

While I'm not in Pattaya to look for myself, I imagine the areas outside the tourist area are surviving fine- ie the residential areas.

Well not completely, some struggle..... there are restaurants, some quite large, outside of Pattaya and they seem to be aimed at the traveling domestic tourists. These have been hit by reduced tourist numbers, alcohol sale bans, and eat-in bans. I know of a relatively new place on Hwy 36 that closed, and a particularly large place that must have substantial overheads and investment. I wonder how they would service any borrowing, if they made any. 

I hear the darkside is doing okay.

[newnative]

8 hours ago, kingofthemountain said:

 

Well i could be wrong and you could be right

you are probably better informed than me being in the business

imo the next year should be decisive for the city

even if in theory a building can stay afloat with a very low occupancy rate

as long as the owners paid the building maintenance fees

 

     You're the second poster to think that I am 'in the business'.  I am not.  I don't have a job in real estate.  I am not a developer nor an agent.   I no longer even own a rental condo.  My partner and I have bought rundown condos, fixed them up, and sold them.  That's it.

     I live in Pattaya year-round and I do take an interest in what is going on with the city--not just with condo or housing developments but also with new hotels, new retail, new tourist attractions, etc.   Currently discovering The Darkside after hardly ever venturing there.

     I think you take an interest, as well.  I try to be a 'glass half full' guy so it's encouraging when I see some glimmers of hope here and there in this difficult time--a new highrise hotel still going up,  a small boutique hotel doing some fixing up during this down time.  A restaurant managing to stay open and doing some business. 

    While lights on in a condo project at night is not really an accurate indication of the percentage of units sold, like hotels, it does give some indication that units are occupied.  Although I observed activity at Centric while I was visiting, my partner and I have also noticed a fair number of lights on at night.  The same for the Lumpini Wongamat project we can see from our balcony.  Ditto for Markland and others.  Occupation is light but the projects aren't empty.  Nice to see some lights on, some people still here.

    I think you are right regarding next year.  With condo projects, the monthly maintenance fee being steadily paid by the owners year after year is the key factor in a project staying, as you say, 'afloat'.  A project can do ok even with a certain percentage of the owners being delinquent but there is a tipping point.

     As an owner, I might be more confident in an older project with more individual owners and more owner/occupants than if I was in one of the new projects with so many of the units having been bought to rent out and now sitting mostly empty.  But, they are new projects, should still have a healthy sinking fund, and being new, possibly less going wrong in the short-term to fix.  Having not just given us the virus, the Chinese have also gifted us their curse, 'May you live in interesting times'.   We are. 

    

[BenDeCosta]

10 hours ago, kingofthemountain said:

you are right, the city is not going to disapear

however the place has already been hit very hard

and it's far from being the end of the tunnel

 

A short video about some locations in Pattaya

for the ones not being here, it gives a good idea of the actual disaster:

 

 

 

Shocking, and really sad to see. I wonder how many businesses had enough money put aside for more than a year of being closed down? I suspect very, very few.

[chrisandsu]

13 minutes ago, newnative said:

     You're the second poster to think that I am 'in the business'.  I am not.  I don't have a job in real estate.  I am not a developer nor an agent.   I no longer even own a rental condo.  My partner and I have bought rundown condos, fixed them up, and sold them.  That's it.

     I live in Pattaya year-round and I do take an interest in what is going on with the city--not just with condo or housing developments but also with new hotels, new retail, new tourist attractions, etc.   Currently discovering The Darkside after hardly ever venturing there.

     I think you take an interest, as well.  I try to be a 'glass half full' guy so it's encouraging when I see some glimmers of hope here and there in this difficult time--a new highrise hotel still going up,  a small boutique hotel doing some fixing up during this down time.  A restaurant managing to stay open and doing some business. 

    While lights on in a condo project at night is not really an accurate indication of the percentage of units sold, like hotels, it does give some indication that units are occupied.  Although I observed activity at Centric while I was visiting, my partner and I have also noticed a fair number of lights on at night.  The same for the Lumpini Wongamat project we can see from our balcony.  Ditto for Markland and others.  Occupation is light but the projects aren't empty.  Nice to see some lights on, some people still here.

    I think you are right regarding next year.  With condo projects, the monthly maintenance fee being steadily paid by the owners year after year is the key factor in a project staying, as you say, 'afloat'.  A project can do ok even with a certain percentage of the owners being delinquent but there is a tipping point.

     As an owner, I might be more confident in an older project with more individual owners and more owner/occupants than if I was in one of the new projects with so many of the units having been bought to rent out and now sitting mostly empty.  But, they are new projects, should still have a healthy sinking fund, and being new, possibly less going wrong in the short-term to fix.  Having not just given us the virus, the Chinese have also gifted us their curse, 'May you live in interesting times'.   We are. 

    

I don’t think people get that there is a lot of very rich Thais . They have become land rich (land price in a reasonable area is obscene ) in the last 30 years . My BIL owns around 8 condos in various parts of the country that he bought for cash and can’t be bothered with the hassle of renting them out!  and only sees and stays in them if he’s in that area of the country and can even remembers where they are ! Thailand has a lot of very rich people and a growing upper middle class. I think we get blinkered sometimes in Believing that all Thais come from the poorer tourist sectors .  

[newnative]

30 minutes ago, chrisandsu said:

I don’t think people get that there is a lot of very rich Thais . They have become land rich (land price in a reasonable area is obscene ) in the last 30 years . My BIL owns around 8 condos in various parts of the country that he bought for cash and can’t be bothered with the hassle of renting them out!  and only sees and stays in them if he’s in that area of the country and can even remembers where they are ! Thailand has a lot of very rich people and a growing upper middle class. I think we get blinkered sometimes in Believing that all Thais come from the poorer tourist sectors .  

   Spot on.  I've mentioned several times living at Lumpini Park Beach and it being so uncrowded even though there are 1800 mostly sold units.  Our next-door neighbors on either side owned the larger 2 bedroom units.  Both nice families from Bangkok.  They only visited a few times a year--usually on long holiday weekends. 

     We also met college professors and Thais in medical fields that also had weekend getaways they had bought--both at Park Beach and Lumpini Seaview behind it.  And, also at Centric Sea when we lived there.  Definitely growing numbers that can afford a small place at the beach.  

   The last project we owned at was at a small project of just 39 large 3 and 4 bedroom condos and a few townhouses right on the beach in Wongamat.  One Bangkok family owned an entire floor of the condos.  I think there were only about 8 condos being lived-in full time.  The rest absentee Thai owners and some wealthy Western owners that came during the winter.   

    

[Susco]

14 hours ago, newnative said:

What projects have 'nobody living inside'?  

 

Suan Sawarn springs to mind

 

https://www.hipflat.sg/projects/suan-sawarn-coizvx

 

 

[kingofthemountain]

11 minutes ago, Susco said:

 

Suan Sawarn springs to mind

 

https://www.hipflat.sg/projects/suan-sawarn-coizvx

 

 

Also the winner 2 in Pratamnak

the project is finished since years but afaik 

for some reason there is nobody linving inside

(Maybe a legal or safety issue?)

https://www.thailand-property.com/condo/11328/the-winner-2

 

On the other hand The Winner 1, few dozens meter from here, is totally fine with a decent amount of people living inside

https://www.hipflat.co.th/en/projects/the-winner-gkxwgz

 

 

[tomyami]

was in pattaya recently looked at a few condos Arcadia 26sqm tiny balcony & unix even a 2 bed with no balcony, had a small but no furniture space sad they built these i would never rent without a decent balcony even the base tiny balcony and the new edge project seems balconies are less and shoe box condos more, lot to be said for spacious view talay builds .

 

Walking street seems abandoned ideal opportunity to demolish and rebuild imo

 

[tlandtday]

4 minutes ago, tomyami said:

was in pattaya recently looked at a few condos Arcadia 26sqm tiny balcony & unix even a 2 bed with no balcony, had a small but no furniture space sad they built these i would never rent without a decent balcony even the base tiny balcony and the new edge project seems balconies are less and shoe box condos more, lot to be said for spacious view talay builds .

 

Walking street seems abandoned ideal opportunity to demolish and rebuild imo

 

Most of the new condos are very poorly constructed and shoe box size with terrible intererior designs.  There are lots of spacious older condos just buy and renovate to your degree of luxury.  Anyone buying these shoeboxes when they have a choice of a larger older unit is foolish.  Ever notice that most of the pics of these new units are of the common areas.  Maybe just ask them if you can get a card pass and sleep by the pool lol.

[newnative]

14 minutes ago, kingofthemountain said:

Also the winner 2 in Pratamnak

the project is finished since years but afaik 

for some reason there is nobody linving inside

(Maybe a legal or safety issue?)

https://www.thailand-property.com/condo/11328/the-winner-2

 

On the other hand The Winner 1, few dozens meter from here, is totally fine with a decent amount of people living inside

https://www.hipflat.co.th/en/projects/the-winner-gkxwgz

 

 

    Had actually never heard of the project posted by Susco.  Have driven by Winner 2.  I don't know what the story is, either.  My partner and I have only bought seaview to live in so we haven't focused much on these little low-rise projects.  

[newnative]

12 minutes ago, tomyami said:

was in pattaya recently looked at a few condos Arcadia 26sqm tiny balcony & unix even a 2 bed with no balcony, had a small but no furniture space sad they built these i would never rent without a decent balcony even the base tiny balcony and the new edge project seems balconies are less and shoe box condos more, lot to be said for spacious view talay builds .

 

Walking street seems abandoned ideal opportunity to demolish and rebuild imo

 

     I think I know the 2 bedroom model you mentioned at Unixx--balcony stretches the full length of the living room but is only about 60cm deep.  About the only thing you could do is stand on it--or maybe sit sideways on a stool.  What were they thinking?  I always want a good-size balcony, too.

[Bruno123]

22 hours ago, newnative said:

      You may not 'see the point' but it's the developers who do see the point and are building 'all these condos'.   As I said in my earlier post, most of the projects in Pattaya have been successful.  The developers have, so far, been able to find buyers for what they build.  Even now, a huge, new luxury project--Arom Wongamat--is getting started.  50 stories proposed with a starting price of around 6MB for the smallest unit size.  Will it be able to find enough buyers?  Time will tell.  

 

 

Another lifestyle project, but really just shoe boxes in a good location.. Luxury is not 37.5 sq.m. That's a maid's quarters.

Look at the state of the project next door to it. Becoming an eyesore.

 

[kingofthemountain]

2 hours ago, chrisandsu said:

I don’t think people get that there is a lot of very rich Thais . They have become land rich (land price in a reasonable area is obscene ) in the last 30 years . My BIL owns around 8 condos in various parts of the country that he bought for cash and can’t be bothered with the hassle of renting them out!  and only sees and stays in them if he’s in that area of the country and can even remembers where they are ! Thailand has a lot of very rich people and a growing upper middle class. I think we get blinkered sometimes in Believing that all Thais come from the poorer tourist sectors .  

The problem is the very rich Thais are a tiny minority of the population

and obviously they aren't able or intersted in buying all the condo stock

even with the influx of foreign buyers from abroad before covid, the unsold

stock is still huge

 

https://www.thailand-property.net/bangkok-biggest-number-unsold-properties/

 

The numbers in this link are not the more recents, but imo still accurates

the situation is even probably worse now

 

''Thailand has too many unsold properties, particularly residential properties. Across the country, 454,814 residential units failed to sell in 2018. All these units combined had a total value of $41 billion USD, said Sopon Pornchokchai, president of the Agency for Real Estate Affairs.'' 

[newnative]

22 minutes ago, Bruno123 said:

 

 

Another lifestyle project, but really just shoe boxes in a good location.. Luxury is not 37.5 sq.m. That's a maid's quarters.

Look at the state of the project next door to it. Becoming an eyesore.

 

   Yes, shoeboxes in a good location.  But, also with terrific amenities.  That seems to be the game plan with most new Pattaya and Bangkok condos that I have toured.  You want to live in a condo project with a boxing ring?  There is one in Bangkok.  Plus golf driving range simulators, putting greens, indoor and outdoor theaters, multiple 'co-living spaces', huge lobbies,  libraries, sky pools and sky lounges with bars and kitchens, yoga, exotic garden spaces, jogging trails, sauna, steam, large gyms, elevator car parking garages, private massage rooms, the list goes on.   It all comes with a big price, of course.  

[Bruno123]

3 minutes ago, newnative said:

   Yes, shoeboxes in a good location.  But, also with terrific amenities.  That seems to be the game plan with most new Pattaya and Bangkok condos that I have toured.  You want to live in a condo project with a boxing ring?  There is one in Bangkok.  Plus golf driving range simulators, putting greens, indoor and outdoor theaters, multiple 'co-living spaces', huge lobbies,  libraries, sky pools and sky lounges with bars and kitchens, yoga, exotic garden spaces, jogging trails, sauna, steam, large gyms, elevator car parking garages, private massage rooms, the list goes on.   It all comes with a big price, of course.  

 

 

Quote

Modern Fitness Center, Yoga Room, Golf VR (simulator), Kid’s Pool, Kid’s Playroom, Onsen, Steam Room and Salon/Spa services

 

doesn't qualify as "terrific facilities" to me. Perhaps someone coming from a bedsitter in the city centre might be impressed. They seem almost standard to me. Yoga room? What is that? Just a space. Kid's pool? Standard. Fitness centre? Standard. Kid's playroom? Standard. Salon and spa services? Standard. Even the lowliest of complexes will have private facilities.  Rooftop pool? Again, an 8k per month rental can have a rooftop swimming pool. 

It's all to distract from the fact that you have no space and that you are paying for things that you can get nearby for much less. Salon and spa service? Walk one hundred metres and get the same service for one fifth of the price. There's a sucker born every minute.