Coronavirus Lab-Leak Theory Gets Another Look

[thaibeachlovers]

16 minutes ago, SunnyinBangrak said:

To recap, there are 2 options.

 1) A bat that lives over 1,000km away in a cave - which just happened to be carrying a very peculiar strain of coronavirus with traits that appear non-natural gets lost and ends up in an inner city Wuhan market. While in this market the bat forgets it is an insect eater and decides to try eating a pangolin, it failed but did manage to infect the poor pangolin with the virus. 3 researchers that just happened to be working at the Wuhan institute of virology, which manipulates coronaviruses to make them more lethal and transmissible for humans, partly on the US taxpayers dime, then ate the pangolin and also became infected. It spread around the world.

 

or 2) It was a lab leak from a dodgy lab that was studying these exact types of jacked up coronavirus.

 

Tough one!!

 

Well put.

[Harry Om]

lol.

 

Jon Stewart On Vaccine Science And The Wuhan Lab Theory

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSfejgwbDQ8

Edited June 17, 2021 by Harry Om

[WaveHunter]

The growing body of evidence connecting the virus with a possible leak from the Wuhan lab, and also questioning a natural zoonotic cross-over connected with the Wuhan wet market still seems to be dismissed by many on this forum as "fake news" or "conspiracy theories"

 

It's a shame that more people are not being objective, but only rely on biased sources for an understanding of what really might have happened.  Nobody really knows for certain right now, and anyone that says one perspective or the other has been "debunked" is just being foolish.

 

All of you who staunchly defend one viewpoint and attack those with an opposing view need to start researching information from a variety of science-based sources like peer-reviewed scientific journals, and explore not only viewpoints that support your view but those that oppose your view, and then make up your own mind, instead of just blindly accepting some news commentators opinion.

 

What most people are doing is simply watching their favorite news show on mass media outlets like CNN or Fox, and merely adopting the viewpoints expressed from only one source.

[Pattaya Spotter]

10 minutes ago, WaveHunter said:

The growing body of evidence connecting the virus with a possible leak from the Wuhan lab, and also questioning a natural zoonotic cross-over connected with the Wuhan wet market still seems to be dismissed by many on this forum as "fake news" or "conspiracy theories"

They've been conditioned to have this view by the "objective" "science based" "unbiased" news media, late nite TV clowns, and most leading members of one of the two main US political parties (who are now furiously backpeddling but its too late).

Edited June 17, 2021 by Pattaya Spotter

[Harry Om]

Video evidence shows there were live bats in Wuhan lab

 

https://www.opindia.com/2021/06/video-evidence-shows-live-bats-in-wuhan-institute-virology-drastic-exposes-peter-daszak-again/

 

 

And the WHO, who ridiculed this as a conspiracy theory, (sound familiar ?) and said there were no bats kept there, now admit that the WHO investigations team did not ask the Wuhan lab about it.

 

"“We didn’t ask them if they had bats."

 

[Pattaya Spotter]

1 minute ago, Harry Om said:

Video evidence shows there were live bats in Wuhan lab

 

https://www.opindia.com/2021/06/video-evidence-shows-live-bats-in-wuhan-institute-virology-drastic-exposes-peter-daszak-again/

 

 

And the WHO, who ridiculed this as a conspiracy theory, (sound familiar ?) and said there were no bats kept there, now admit that the WHO investigations team did not ask the Wuhan lab about it.

 

"“We didn’t ask them if they had bats."

 

As any lawyer...never ask a question you don't want to know the answer to.

[WaveHunter]

3 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

At this time a lab leak is just as valid a theory as an animal to human infection. The reasons for disparaging the lab leak are not able to be discussed on here given they are IMO purely political.

Most of the growing body of evidence that this pandemic may have been the result of a lab leak are coming from peer-reviewed scientific journals and opinions of very well vetted and unbiased scientists from all around the world.  Very little of the important evidence is politically biased.

 

It should be recognized that the initial evidence was from Chinese scientists and journalists back at the very beginning of the outbreak, far before the pandemic was even declared, and indicating that the virus actually existing far before the wet market outbreak, as early as September of 2019 with unusual life-threatening pneumonia-like admittances to Wuhan hospitals, almost all involving people associated with the Wuhan lab.

 

[Pattaya Spotter]

3 minutes ago, Harry Om said:

Video evidence shows there were live bats in Wuhan lab

 

https://www.opindia.com/2021/06/video-evidence-shows-live-bats-in-wuhan-institute-virology-drastic-exposes-peter-daszak-again/

 

 

And the WHO, who ridiculed this as a conspiracy theory, (sound familiar ?) and said there were no bats kept there, now admit that the WHO investigations team did not ask the Wuhan lab about it.

 

"“We didn’t ask them if they had bats."

 

As any lawyer...never ask a question you don't want to know the answer to.

[Pattaya Spotter]

Wuhan lab leak theory: Behind the science and origin of Covid.

 

Alina Chan isn't saying the coronavirus definitely leaked from a lab in China. What she is saying is what more scientists have grown comfortable discussing publicly: There's no clear evidence either way. [Emphasis added]

 

https://www.nbcnews.com/science/science-news/lab-leak-theory-science-scientists-rcna1191

Edited June 17, 2021 by Pattaya Spotter

[WaveHunter]

27 minutes ago, Pattaya Spotter said:

They've been conditioned to have this view by the "objective" "science based" "unbiased" news media, late nite TV clowns, and most leading members of one of the two main US political parties (who are now furiously backpeddling but its too late).

I agree, that's the whole problem right now.  Instead of getting legitimate journalism from news shows, all we get is heavily biased commentary from the likes of Sean Hannity or Tucker Carlson on Fox, or Anderson Cooper on CNN, or Rachael Maddow on MSNBC.

 

None of these commentators are journalists in the true sense of the word.  They pander to sensationalism with click bait headlines designed only to hook viewers in order to generate ad revenue, and to push biased narrative, rather than to simply provide fair & balanced news.

 

For me, that is the main problem with journalism today.  Most of the mainstream media are no longer focused on delivering legitimate journalism so that people can have the raw facts, think for themselves and form their own opinions.

 

Journalism is no longer the "Fourth Estate" that traditionally served the vital function of holding governments and other powerful interests accountable to the public.  Instead, news media outlets have become a purely commercial enterprise and often a propaganda tool for powerful interests.

Edited June 17, 2021 by WaveHunter

[mommysboy]

Perhaps the biggest reason for believing in a lab leak is that no natural reservoir (overspill event) has been identified, which is unusual. Or as one wag said : 'No smoking bat'.

[BobinBKK]

Humans have been eating things they shouldn't for what, 50,000 years or so? And all of a sudden in late 2019 we have Covid-19? I'm sorry but you will never get me to believe that "animal to human jump" crock certain people would like us to believe.

[WaveHunter]

47 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

Perhaps the biggest reason for believing in a lab leak is that no natural reservoir (overspill event) has been identified, which is unusual. Or as one wag said : 'No smoking bat'.

I saw that interview where the comment about "no smoking bat" was said.  I forget who it was that said it, but it was a very compelling viewpoint, and put that way was funny as hell ????

 

 

Edited June 17, 2021 by WaveHunter

[WaveHunter]

1 hour ago, Harry Om said:

Video evidence shows there were live bats in Wuhan lab

 

https://www.opindia.com/2021/06/video-evidence-shows-live-bats-in-wuhan-institute-virology-drastic-exposes-peter-daszak-again/

 

 

And the WHO, who ridiculed this as a conspiracy theory, (sound familiar ?) and said there were no bats kept there, now admit that the WHO investigations team did not ask the Wuhan lab about it.

 

"“We didn’t ask them if they had bats."

 

Nobody should rule out the lab leak hypothesis right now and adamantly stick to the idea that it occured naturally outside of the lab. 

 

This was being claimed within days of cases linked to the wet markets, and then, within weeks, it was vigorously being defended, with opposing views being called "conspiracy theories". 

 

Chinese scientists and journalists who suggested an alternative to a natural origin, were not only suppressed, but many of those people as well as their data supporting their viewpoint simply "disappeared"

 

Historically, outbreak-origin investigations often take years to determine, not days!

 

It took 14 years for the origin of the SARS epidemic to be determined.  A complete Ebola virus has still never been isolated from an animal in the region where the world's largest outbreak occurred.

 

There are so many unanswered questions right now, it's impossible to confirm a natural origin or to debunk a possible lab leak.  For the WHO to come out with such irresponsible viewpoints on the origin was pretty outrageous IMO.

Edited June 17, 2021 by WaveHunter

[placeholder]

1 hour ago, mommysboy said:

Perhaps the biggest reason for believing in a lab leak is that no natural reservoir (overspill event) has been identified, which is unusual. Or as one wag said : 'No smoking bat'.

Haven't found one yet for Ebola.

[atpeace]

On 6/11/2021 at 2:17 PM, Jeffr2 said:

I hope you two read this.  Lays things out very well.

 

https://www.factcheck.org/2021/05/the-wuhan-lab-and-the-gain-of-function-disagreement/

 

I Read the article. Are you actually reading waverunners posts or just trying to prove you can not be questioned?

 

The article supports what waverunner is posting.  He unlike yourself is not all knowing. 

Edited June 17, 2021 by atpeace

[placeholder]

1 hour ago, BobinBKK said:

Humans have been eating things they shouldn't for what, 50,000 years or so? And all of a sudden in late 2019 we have Covid-19? I'm sorry but you will never get me to believe that "animal to human jump" crock certain people would like us to believe.

Right. Next you'll be telling us that it's a crock about smallpox, tuberculosis, ebola, and HIV originating from animal sources, too.

Edited June 17, 2021 by placeholder

[WaveHunter]

25 minutes ago, atpeace said:

I Read the article. Are you actually reading waverunners posts or just trying to prove you can not be questioned?

 

The article supports what waverunner is posting.  He unlike yourself is not all knowing. 

Some members of this forum blindly believe that anything coming from sites like factchecker.org or PolitiFact are providing the gospel truth.  Sometimes they provide very compelling information, but the fact remains, the viewpoints expressed are by human beings, all with inherent human biases.

@waverunn

So, my question is always, "Who checks the fact checkers?"  "Who is it that holds them accountable?"

 

It would be nice if one could simply turn to a source like this to find the truth, but if one thinks that's possible, they are living in a fantasy land.

 

You can only find the truth by exploring raw facts from unbiased sources, not only from sources that favor your own viewpoint, but objectively exploring viewpoints that are counter to those you believe. 

 

That takes a lot of work, and more than most people want to spend...so instead they just rely on their favorite mass media source like CNN, Fox, or MSNBC to spoon feed them with the "truth". 

 

Unfortunately, these media sources do not dispense fair & balanced journalism; they only dispense biased commentary, and that is essentially worthless if you are really looking to find the truth.

 

Oh, BTW, I think you were referring to me in your posts, but I am actually WaveHunter...waverunner has a nice ring to it though.????

 

Edited June 17, 2021 by WaveHunter

[WaveHunter]

16 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Right. Next you'll be telling us that it's a crock about smallpox, tuberculosis, ebola, and HIV originating from animal sources, too.

Just so you know, a complete Ebola virus has never been isolated from an animal in the region where the world's largest outbreak occurred.  It can take years of investigation to determine virus origins.  It took 14 years to do that with the SARS virus.

 

Right now, for anyone to adamantly proclaim that the present pandemic is attributable to natural zoonotic crossover from animal to human is absurd since the origin is still very much UNKNOWN, and could remain that way for years. 

[Nojohndoe]

On 6/11/2021 at 11:32 AM, Jeffr2 said:

This sums it up quite well.  The origins need to be determined.  But as they say, since China won't cooperate, we'll probably never know.  But the consensus is it came from nature.  But that can't be proven.  And may never be proven.

 

https://edition.cnn.com/videos/health/2021/05/24/fauci-not-convinced-covid-19-coronavirus-developed-naturally-sot-vpx-newday.cnn

I can only agree. On both sides of the debate there is no proof or even "evidence" of proof that can determine an answer. The Chinese authorities will have eliminated as much as possible to defend their stance . On the side presenting "evidence" in resurgent accusations it remains speculative and interpretive at best . The media frenzy that is dwelling on attempts to throw people under the bus in contrived presentations of emails with a deliberate bias is becoming  bizzare.

If nothing else at least the public awareness of what research is undertaken in many such Labs will hopefully result in greater scrutiny and security where and when such research continues.

Meanwhile in the background of this current focus on this pandemic and it's origins there is scientific concern about the ongoing ancient ice melts which are releasing as ancient preserved organisms that may or may not have a dangerous potential.

 

 

 

[placeholder]

1 hour ago, WaveHunter said:

Just so you know, a complete Ebola virus has never been isolated from an animal in the region where the world's largest outbreak occurred.  It can take years of investigation to determine virus origins.  It took 14 years to do that with the SARS virus.

 

Right now, for anyone to adamantly proclaim that the present pandemic is attributable to natural zoonotic crossover from animal to human is absurd since the origin is still very much UNKNOWN, and could remain that way for years. 

I was replying to this: 

Humans have been eating things they shouldn't for what, 50,000 years or so? And all of a sudden in late 2019 we have Covid-19? I'm sorry but you will never get me to believe that "animal to human jump" crock certain people would like us to believe.

 

Edited June 17, 2021 by placeholder

[mikebike]

6 minutes ago, placeholder said:

I was replying to this:

Humans have been eating things they shouldn't for what, 50,000 years or so? And all of a sudden in late 2019 we have Covid-19? I'm sorry but you will never get me to believe that "animal to human jump" crock certain people would like us to believe.

They just don't understand history OR science. It's Ok.

Edited June 17, 2021 by mikebike

[WaveHunter]

8 minutes ago, placeholder said:

I was replying to this:

Humans have been eating things they shouldn't for what, 50,000 years or so? And all of a sudden in late 2019 we have Covid-19? I'm sorry but you will never get me to believe that "animal to human jump" crock certain people would like us to believe.

Sorry I misunderstood your post; it seems we're seeing things from the same perspective ????

 

[placeholder]

2 minutes ago, WaveHunter said:

Sorry I misunderstood your post; it seems we're seeing things from the same perspective ????

 

I guess I'm in good company, then.

[WaveHunter]

8 minutes ago, placeholder said:

I guess I'm in good company, then.

Mostly I'm into this controversy about origen simply becuase the "origin question" fascinates me, not becuase I believe one way or the other.  I've really tried to look at both side of the question, "natural vs from the lab", and I really don't know, but the more evidence I come across, the more possible the lab leak scenario seems to be.

 

I just get very impatient and short when people or organizations that claim something is true or untrue when there are not enough facts to unconditional prove it to be so, and yet state it as a fact, and refer to any arguments counter to it as a debunked conspiracy theory. 

 

I mean until proven one way or the other, BOTH views are only theory and nothing more.

[candide]

2 hours ago, WaveHunter said:

You can only find the truth by exploring raw facts from unbiased sources, not only from sources that favor your own viewpoint, but objectively exploring viewpoints that are counter to those you believe. 

So the question which is usually left unanswered: what are these sources from which you get your information because they are unbiased?

[tgw]

4 hours ago, Pattaya Spotter said:

Wuhan lab leak theory: Behind the science and origin of Covid.

 

Alina Chan isn't saying the coronavirus definitely leaked from a lab in China. What she is saying is what more scientists have grown comfortable discussing publicly: There's no clear evidence either way. [Emphasis added]

 

https://www.nbcnews.com/science/science-news/lab-leak-theory-science-scientists-rcna1191

 

ok - what I would like to see is a reputable team of virologists follow up on the hints mentioned in this article:

https://nicholaswade.medium.com/origin-of-covid-following-the-clues-6f03564c038

 

did Covid emerge already equipped with that "furin cleavage site" and is that "furin cleavage site" wrapped in sequences that are typically used by labs to modify viruses but are super-rare in nature?

 

I want reputable scientists to provide the answer to that question.

 

Second step would be to formulate possible explanations.

 

https://thewire.in/health/origins-of-covid-19-wuhan-china-coronavirus

Edited June 17, 2021 by tgw

[xylophone]

1 hour ago, WaveHunter said:

Mostly I'm into this controversy about origen simply becuase the "origin question" fascinates me, not becuase I believe one way or the other.  I've really tried to look at both side of the question, "natural vs from the lab", and I really don't know, but the more evidence I come across, the more possible the lab leak scenario seems to be.

So taking that point of yours, let's just say for argument sake that virus is proven to have escaped from a lab..............now what?

 

The virus is out there and we have to deal with it, and pointing the finger at one lab or another source is not going to help one iota, and it's worth bearing in mind that there have been more than 40 leaks of various viruses and diseases from laboratories around the world in the last century (that we know of), including, plague, smallpox, Ebola, H1N1, anthrax, foot-and-mouth disease, Marburg virus, West Nile virus, SARS, Dengue, Zika virus, brucellosis and others, some many times over, and perhaps many more which have never been discovered.

 

These laboratories are out there trying to determine from whence various diseases originated, how they spread and how they might be dealt with/cured, so even if it is established that the virus escaped from a laboratory in Wuhan, then it won't stop hundreds of other laboratories around the world carrying out similar work.

 

So other than tightening up on the security of these laboratories, there's not much else we can do, because research work on these diseases/viruses will surely continue.

 

And on that note, researchers have found 24 new coronaviruses in bats, including one which is the second closest genetically to Covid 19.

Edited June 17, 2021 by xylophone

[Pattaya Spotter]

1 hour ago, tgw said:

 

ok - what I would like to see is a reputable team of virologists follow up on the hints mentioned in this article:

https://nicholaswade.medium.com/origin-of-covid-following-the-clues-6f03564c038

 

did Covid emerge already equipped with that "furin cleavage site" and is that "furin cleavage site" wrapped in sequences that are typically used by labs to modify viruses but are super-rare in nature?

 

I want reputable scientists to provide the answer to that question.

 

Second step would be to formulate possible explanations.

 

https://thewire.in/health/origins-of-covid-19-wuhan-china-coronavirus

Maybe at a minimum agree that all labs working with coronaviruses do so in bio-safety level 4 facilities (Dr. Shi has admitted to working with coronaviruses in level 2 and 3 labs) and I'm sure other extra safety protocols experts can agree on when working with these potentially dangerous organisms.

[tgw]

37 minutes ago, Pattaya Spotter said:

Maybe at a minimum agree that all labs working with coronaviruses do so in bio-safety level 4 facilities (Dr. Shi has admitted to working with coronaviruses in level 2 and 3 labs) and I'm sure other extra safety protocols experts can agree on when working with these potentially dangerous organisms.

 

There have been multiple virus escapes around the world, not just limited to coronaviruses.

 

Of course any work on contagious viruses should be carried out under high safety standards, especially any viruses that can infect humans.

 

Regarding coronaviruses, I'm pretty sure that level 2 safety requirements were not met if Covid escaped the lab.

 

And safety requirements are one thing, but equally as important in my opinion are controlling of adherence by labs and detection of breaches. Can breaches even detected in a reliable manner?

 

Are works carried out on viruses required to be precisely documented? People are quick to point to the Wuhan lab, but Covid might very well have been made somewhere else and then sent to Wuhan as a sample to study.

 

Or did some scientist on a quest for fame and publications carry out unauthorized work in a lab of insufficient safety standard?

 

And what kind of procedures can be put in place in labs to prevent leaks? Scientist (or a cleaner trainee) does an "oopsie", gets infected, covers it up quickly, does not protocol the incident... how can this be noticed?