Expats living in Thailand high rise condos in the wake of the Florida disaster

[Airalee]

2 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

So now it's 2021 and you're twenty years in on thirty year loan and you now owe about $50-100K on a half million dollar property. How is it you can't get a loan?

Mortgages are not solely approved on the amount of equity one has in a unit.  The borrowers income is also taken into account.

[Thomas J]

On 6/25/2021 at 8:52 PM, Jingthing said:

Was it a flaw in the original construction or perhaps related to the water seepage issues in the Miami area related to global climate change

Yes everything that happens is due to global climate change.  I heard that was the reason for dinosaurs not being around any more.  Now the fact that one building in Miami built 40 years ago having withstood hurricanes suddenly collapses is hardly proof evidence of global warming or anything else.  

It is possible the land it was built on was filled, it is possible that the foundations of the building were not driven and poured deep enough, it is possible that the construction was just shoddy.  However the fact that the remainder of the high rise buildings in Miami remain standing, are not reported to be sinking, including those adjacent to the one that fell seems to me to be pretty strong evidence that global warming is in the words of  Henny Penny causing the sky to fall. 

[Airalee]

7 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

 

Okay, so $200K or even (better) $100K in the early 2000s, which was about twenty years ago. 

 

So now it's 2021 and you're twenty years in on thirty year loan and you now owe about $50-100K on a half million dollar property. How is it you can't get a loan?

 

Sure, if you re-financed every few years and sucked all your equity out your it might be tough, but you still could have sold.

 

 

If you want to see how ugly (and drawn out) these situations can be, just look into the Ocean Towers Co-op in Santa Monica, Ca (regarding damage from the 1994 Northridge Earthquake).

[fusion58]

On 6/25/2021 at 8:52 PM, Jingthing said:

I think condo towers totally collapsing is exceedingly rare. But now we know it can really happen, even in first world USA.

 

Whether Florida qualifies as "first world" or not is debatable.  ????

[richard_smith237]

2 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

I think, as with many of the regulations in Thailand. The regulations themselves are absolutely fine. 

 

It is the enforcement of those regulations, inherent corruption and lack of accountability which in ‘some’ cases may lead to regulations not being fully adhered to or worst case being completely ignored....  

 

I think that is the greater concern rather than lack of regulations themselves. 

 

 

 

 

The timing of the linked news story is somewhat astonishing !!!... 

 

 

'an engineer at the Office of the Basic Education Commission had demanded a 120,000 baht "inspection fee" for a six story building'

 

And there you have it folks...  It won’t be poor regulations which causes a tragedy in Thailand, it will be corruption and criminal negligence. 

 

 

 

 

[Yellowtail]

45 minutes ago, Airalee said:

Mortgages are not solely approved on the amount of equity one has in a unit.  The borrowers income is also taken into account.

 

Yeah, you'd have to have a lot of income to get a hundred thousand dollar secured loan with half a million in equity. 

 

Again, nothing stopping them from selling.

 

And nothing stopping the condo association from arranging financing.

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, Yellowtail said:

 

Yeah, you'd have to have a lot of income to get a hundred thousand dollar secured loan with half a million in equity. 

 

Again, nothing stopping them from selling.

 

And nothing stopping the condo association from arranging financing.

Yeah I'm sure that people would be queueing around the block to buy into a building with problems like that if properly disclosed.

[Airalee]

1 minute ago, Yellowtail said:

Yeah, you'd have to have a lot of income to get a hundred thousand dollar secured loan with half a million in equity. 

 

You can’t pay a loan back with equity.

 

2 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Again, nothing stopping them from selling.

True, but elderly folks can be quite stubborn when it comes to moving.

 

3 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

And nothing stopping the condo association from arranging financing.

Depends on the quorum requirements.  Getting enough votes could be a hindrance.

[Yellowtail]

Just now, Jingthing said:

Yeah I'm sure that people would be queueing around the block to buy into a building with problems like that if properly disclosed.

 

If the property is worth a half-million, and it required $115K in structural work, it would be easy to sell for $300K

 

I'm surprised that given the number of floors, when the structural issues we found, it wasn't demoed and rebuilt twice as high. I'm sure they thought about it...

[Yellowtail]

3 minutes ago, Airalee said:

You can’t pay a loan back with equity.

 

True, but elderly folks can be quite stubborn when it comes to moving.

 

Depends on the quorum requirements.  Getting enough votes could be a hindrance.

 

They could refinance, extent term and keep the same payment.

 

 

[Jingthing]

7 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

 

If the property is worth a half-million, and it required $115K in structural work, it would be easy to sell for $300K

 

I'm surprised that given the number of floors, when the structural issues we found, it wasn't demoed and rebuilt twice as high. I'm sure they thought about it...

I think you're being naive. A buyer would need to trust that the full amount needed was actually going to be raised and also that the needed repairs would be successfully completed in time. 

I think more likely that building should have been a tear down and the condo association knew it and were dragging their feet.

Edited June 28, 2021 by Jingthing

[Airalee]

1 minute ago, Yellowtail said:

 

They could refinance, extent term and keep the same payment.

 

 

If it were only so cut and dry.  
 

Have you considered moving to Florida and becoming a mortgage broker?  

 

I would reckon that there are many problematic developments with deferred maintenance.

[Yellowtail]

7 minutes ago, Airalee said:

If it were only so cut and dry.  
 

Have you considered moving to Florida and becoming a mortgage broker?  

 

I would reckon that there are many problematic developments with deferred maintenance.

 

I lived in FL for ten years, you? 

[Airalee]

2 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

 

I lived in FL for ten years, you? 

Don’t know what that has to do with it, but I’m sorry you had to put up with the humidity for so long.

[Yellowtail]

14 minutes ago, Airalee said:

Don’t know what that has to do with it, but I’m sorry you had to put up with the humidity for so long.

 

You asked me if I had considered moving to Florida, I just telling you that I had already lived there for ten years. Please ty to follow along...

 

 

[impulse]

On 6/25/2021 at 8:25 PM, impulse said:

The building at the bottom of the photo is the one that collapsed.  If I lived in the one at the top, I'd find somewhere else to stay for awhile.  The design and age look pretty much identical, except a jog in Collins Avenue made them build it a little smaller.

 

 

Looks like the mayor is now recommending residents of the North Tower move out temporarily because they can't guaranty their safety since it was built on the same project.

 

I also suspect they'll figure out what went wrong on the South Tower by examining the state of the North Tower.  It may be months (if ever) before they can decipher the rubble and identify a root cause.

 

 

 

 

Edited June 28, 2021 by impulse

[MaxYakov]

If you live in a reinforced concrete high-rise, regardless of where it is you should checkout the several civil engineers that have carefully commented on the Surfside collapse. If one resides in such a builing, one could do their own inspection of the building to some degree (depending). The collapse in Surfside was in dire need of restoration after 40 Years (and apparetnly some pretty lame corrective maintenance efforts)

 

I live in a typical, older, Thai six-story, reinforced concrete apartment fuiling and if I saw in my building what was obvious in the Surfside building I would be :outta here in the proverbial flash;! (one advantage of renting over buying):

 

By an engineer (one would think) by someone who identifies his YouTube channel as 'Building Integrity' seems to know what he's talking about and doesn't speculate or jump to conclusions::

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrP-Zl7NHzE

 

'Building Integrity' YouTube Channel (videos):

 

https://www.youtube.com/c/BuildingIntegrity/videos

 

Gratuitously throwing in this talk on concrete spalling (pardon the thick accent):

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73LXQFmav2w

 

 

 

 

Edited June 28, 2021 by MaxYakov

[sirineou]

10 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

 

Okay, so $200K or even (better) $100K in the early 2000s, which was about twenty years ago. 

 

So now it's 2021 and you're twenty years in on thirty year loan and you now owe about $50-100K on a half million dollar property. How is it you can't get a loan?

 

Sure, if you re-financed every few years and sucked all your equity out your it might be tough, but you still could have sold.

 

 

These repairs , are not financed by the individual owners, The home owners association would get a loan , and the repayment would be divided among all the condominium owners as part of their homeowners association fees. That's why when you are looking to buy a  condominium you look to see what major maintenance repairs they have coming up.

In the US you want to ask to review the minutes of the meetings , That's where all the dirty laundry is aired.

And you need to ask, "when was the last time the roof was repaired" "elevator" "waterproofing" big ticket items. etc. 

Edited June 28, 2021 by sirineou

[Jingthing]

I used to own a California condo that required a major repair but nothing like over 100k per unit. More like 8k. The condo did arrange some kind of financing plan. The required payback was not like a 30 year mortgage. More like a two year payback and most owners were able to pay. It was actually a selling point after the repair was done. But 100k I think that would have been a mess and not really sure all condos could arrange financing for that.

[jomtienisgood]

17 hours ago, Liverpool Lou said:

Yeah, tons of one concrete roof collapsing on your head wouldn't be a problem, would it?   By the way, you wouldn't be on top, the roof would be!

No I wouldn't as running up to the roof would be faster than going down....

[Jingthing]

Major flooding and water seeping in the parking garage, oh my!

I recall that buildings that have parking garages on ground floors are considered higher risk to fall in earthquakes.

My cheaply constructed California condo (also built in the 1980s) was like that. It never felt safe to live there.

 

Parking garage flooding was common at Champlain Towers South, residents say - The Washington Post

Edited June 29, 2021 by Jingthing

[balo]

I am not scared of condos collapsing , especially not in Thailand.  You should be more worried about fires, it happens from time to time.   

[Freeduhdum]

Happens all the time now, get used to your New Normal. 
 

 

[Jingthing]

About the Florida disaster, please don't get me wrong.

The rescue workers are some of the best in the world using the best available technology. They risk their lives to try to save others. They are truly heroes. 

 

However, since the time of the collapse, their efforts have come to nothing. So much time has passed, and looking at the nature of this collapse, wouldn't any reasonable person say, enough already, it's over, there is no longer any hope of finding anyone alive, and it's time to formally and publicly face that reality.

 

Surely friends and families are going through hell. Yet they must know by now their only hope is to recover only bodies.

 

Prolonging this theater of acting like there is still any hope seems some kind of weird American cultural phenomenon rather than about anything remotely rational. Who does it help exactly? 

 

Am I wrong?

Edited July 5, 2021 by Jingthing

[Yellowtail]

3 hours ago, Jingthing said:

...any reasonable person...

 

Therein lies the rub.

[lkn]

On 6/25/2021 at 3:52 PM, Jingthing said:

Are there mandated structural inspections here and if so, at what intervals?

Yes, there are mandatory annual building inspections and grand inspections every five years.

The inspector has to be licensed, and the report gets submitted to the Land Office, which may follow up on issues raised by the report, e.g. ask for documentation showing that they have been addressed.

 

[OneMoreFarang]

On 6/25/2021 at 8:52 PM, Jingthing said:

first world USA

555!

 

Apart from that: I was in my high-rise apartment during the earthquake that started the tsunami in 2004. It was a little scary but nothing in the building or apartment was damaged. I am pretty confident it will not collapse anytime soon.

 

And just in case it collapses: Living above the 30th floor the chance of survival is not too high. And when I am dead then I don't have to worry about it anymore. ???? 

[zappalot]

On 7/22/2021 at 4:38 PM, lkn said:

Yes, there are mandatory annual building inspections and grand inspections every five years.

The inspector has to be licensed, and the report gets submitted to the Land Office, which may follow up on issues raised by the report, e.g. ask for documentation showing that they have been addressed.

 

 

yes, there are yearly inspections, but: even if they find

• cracks,
• the fire alarm not working,
• no water available in the fire cabinets,
• no elevator maintenance
• and so on

nothing will happen in Bangkkok, not the land department, not the district office that was informed in addition and not the buildings inspection unit of the BMA will do anything to get the management to start solving the problems.

 

NOTHING (real life experience)

[lkn]

16 hours ago, zappalot said:

[…] nothing will happen in Bangkkok, not the land department, not the district office that was informed in addition and not the buildings inspection unit of the BMA will do anything to get the management to start solving the problems.

 

NOTHING (real life experience)

Our building inspector pointed out cracks in the arrogated filler blocks between the load bearing columns (purely aesthetic issue), and the Land Office pestered us about getting this addressed, so my experience does not match yours.

 

But of course, regardless of how many laws and procedures you put in place, there will always be people who just ignore them, and justice is slow. Though in your case, you can ask for the annual report, you can raise your concerns at the AGM, and if nobody takes this serious (and the report does indeed point out serious issues), then you really shouldn’t stay in that building, and possibly file a complaint with the Land Office.

 

Lack of elevator maintenance already sounds like a big red flag and something is seriously wrong with your committee and management company / building manager, if they forego this.