Astra Zenenca Vs. Sinovac

[DavisH]

On 7/8/2021 at 12:26 PM, Stevemercer said:

I read that side-effects from SinoVac affected about 10% of those vaccinated, much higher than AZ.

 

The Thai press initially reported regularly on severe side effects from Sinovac and numbers were in the order of 10 %.

 

Then  the western press started reporting on fatalities from AZ and that was the big story.

 

Since then the media has been quiet on Sinovac.

Most people get some side effects from all types of vaccines. From what I can tell of a number of Thai family members who have been vaccinated with az, is that the older one is, the less the side effects. The younger relatives have have fever headaches, tiredness. The over 60's barely had anything, including my mother. As for severe effects, I doubt the government will be very forthcoming with any information - the earlier reports suggested that severe effects were co-incidental. But who knows. Seemingly no reports of blood clots in LoS, as yet. 

[oldcpu]

1 hour ago, steven100 said:

Why would you even think the Chinese Sinovac would offer protection   ?  

No one is claiming 100% protection. Even Pfizer and Moderna do not provide 100% protection, although IMHO their efficacy is far superior to AstraZeneca and superior to any of the Chinese vaccines.

 

But to answer your question:  There was some protection. Why ?  Look at the numbers.   0.48% infected in the Thailand general population with little-to-no vaccination.  And only 0.09% infected if vaccinated (where most were vaccinated with Sinovac).  The numbers tell the story.

 

If 0.48% of Thailand medical workers had been infected (like the general Thailand population) there would have been something like 3,250 medical workers infected, and not only 618.  Lets be happy it was not 3,250 medical workers infected.

 

Would Pfizer or Moderna, if available and given to the medical workers resulted in less infected - yes I believe so.  Were they available ? No. 

 

Go back a bit in time when the Sinovac was given to most of the medical personnel.  It was the only vaccine that Thailand could get at the time, as other (much more wealthy countries than Thailand) had made certain they all had first dibs on Pfizer, ... on J&J ... on Moderna.

 

As sad as it may be - in general its true, that one needs to take the vaccine that one can get - where there is no other choice.

Edited July 11, 2021 by oldcpu

[Tony125]

 

Hundreds of Thai medical workers infected despite Sinovac vaccinations

 

https://www.yahoo.com/news/hundreds-thai-medical-workers-infected-092123931.html

[FridgeMagnet1]

3 hours ago, Tony125 said:

 

Hundreds of Thai medical workers infected despite Sinovac vaccinations

 

https://www.yahoo.com/news/hundreds-thai-medical-workers-infected-092123931.html

I think you need to read the article and look at the figures involved.

 

less than 0.2% got infected 

[jomtienisgood]

8 hours ago, steven100 said:

I hear what you say and respect your view.  I would not trust anything that comes out of China or Russia.

Who started this mess ....  ?  supposedly China,    so how the heck could one even consider a vaccine from a county that initiated the virus in the first place.    no thanks,   but that's just me.    

Again ' supposedly ' has NO scientific or any other value....

[tonray]

On 7/8/2021 at 7:35 AM, billsmart said:

After that, towards the end of the year or the first of next year, I will probably get another vaccine, like Moderna.

I plan on waiting until Moderna is widely available here, likely late November or December. Until then limit my time outside the home (easy because everything is shut down anyway practially speaking) and when I go out for groceries, double mask and extra careful.

[Denim]

2 minutes ago, tonray said:

likely late November or December.

I agree with your plan of action although I think it will be more like March or April before there are sufficient  Moderna jabs to allow for a walk in jab kind of service.

[tonray]

Just now, Denim said:

I agree with your plan of action although I think it will be more like March or April before there are sufficient  Moderna jabs to allow for a walk in jab kind of service.

Perhaps...I can wait it out. Better to get a vaccine that works instead of one that is more like a placebo. In any event, folks who were vaccineted already may need a booster by April anyway..especially when new variants crop up faster than ladyboys on Walking Street.

[MrJ2U]

On 7/8/2021 at 2:12 PM, Tony125 said:

 

Germany to donate all remaining AstraZeneca vaccines in Aug

 

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/germany-donate-all-remaining-astrazeneca-vaccines-aug-2021-07-07/

 

Most Germans prefer the BioNTech(22UAy.DE)/Pfizer(PFE.N) vaccine due to concerns over the side effects and efficacy of AstraZeneca.

This week, Health Minister Jens Spahn announced that those people who had already received a single dose of AstraZeneca would receive an mRNA vaccine like those of BioNTech/Pfizer or Moderna for their second dose.

The AstraZeneca vaccine does not feature in Germany's purchasing plans for next year.

 

 

That graph is off if reports of deaths despite two doses of Sinovac are to be believed.

 

Bangkok Post

 

 *Of the 677,348 medical personnel who received two doses of Sinovac, 618 became infected, ministry data from April 1 to July 10 showed. A nurse has died and another medical worker is in critical condition."

 

More reports of the same in Indonesia.
 

 

 

 

[Tony125]

 

Malaysia to stop using Sinovac vaccine after supply ends - minister

 

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/1-malaysia-stop-using-sinovac-114941202.html

[Tony125]

 

BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine antibodies ten times higher than Sinovac's: study

 

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/m/56d00db5-9278-3701-91bb-7993c6646788/biontech-covid-19-vaccine.html

[oldcpu]

The article is in Thai, but its easily understandable if one uses Google chrome to translate:  https://www.khaosod.co.th/covid-19/news_6506545

 

The conclusions are clear .... both Sinovac and AstraZenica, while not perfect, helped to reduce the infections, hospitalizations, and deaths of Thai medical workers. 

 

That is not to say that other vaccines would not have been better - but it does show the vaccines available did help.

[oldcpu]

 

On 7/12/2021 at 11:10 AM, MrJ2U said:

That graph is off if reports of deaths despite two doses of Sinovac are to be believed.

 

There are a (reduced) number of deaths from this virus with ALL of the vaccines - even Pfizer and Moderna.  However Pfizer and Moderna do have less deaths associated with their vaccinations than Sinovac or AstraZeneca.   So none of the 100% effective figures against death should be believed for any of the vaccines (unless there was rounding off from something like say 99.5% to 100%).   Still, all of them give better efficacy than going for no vaccine.

Edited July 17, 2021 by oldcpu

[Bkk Brian]

21 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

 

There are a (reduced) number of deaths from this virus with ALL of the vaccines - even Pfizer and Moderna.  However Pfizer and Moderna do have less deaths associated with their vaccinations than Sinovac or AstraZeneca.   So none of the 100% effective figures against death should be believed for any of the vaccines (unless there was rounding off from something like say 99.5% to 100%).   Still, all of them given better efficacy than going for no vaccine.

There is no real life study with delta and Sinovac regards effectiveness. 

 

There is with AZ & Pfizer and both perform about the same at avoiding serious hospital admissions. Pfizer 96% effective, AZ 92%.

 

I believe there is also one on Moderna however I've not read it yet.

Edited July 17, 2021 by Bkk Brian

[steven100]

just to touch on the Pfizer vaccine ....

https://www.yahoo.com/news/thai-hospital-tycoon-sticks-guns-103141520.html

 

BANGKOK (Reuters) - Thailand’s Thonburi Healthcare Group Pcl (THG) doubled down on its outspoken chairman's claim to be buying Pfizer-BioNTech vaccines on Friday, helping its share price rise despite denials by both drugmakers.

Dr. Boon Vanasin's claim that his group, a more than $800 million private medicine empire, was close to signing a deal for 20 million Pfizer-BioNTech coronavirus vaccines to import to Thailand was swiftly denied on Thursday by both companies, one day after a government agency filed a defamation suit against Boon, 82.

Boon insists a deal was in the works through a government agency, which he declined to name.

"We are not doing it directly," he told Reuters.

Still, his comments on Thursday added about 1.5 billion baht ($45.80 million) to THG’s market capitalisation, bring it to 26.8 billion baht ($818.32 million), Refinitiv Eikon data shows.

Thailand so far has only vaccinated 5 percent of its population of more than 66 million. It has been administering China's Sinovac vaccine and the AstraZeneca’s shots but the government seeking other imported doses.

[placeholder]

6 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

There is no real life study with delta and Sinovac regards mortality effectiveness. 

 

There is with AZ & Pfizer and both perform about the same at avoiding serious hospital admissions. Pfizer 96% effective, AZ 92%.

 

I believe there is also one on Moderna however I've not read it yet.

Of course there are real life studies of the Sinovac vaccine. Brazil, Turkey, Uruguay, Chile, and Indonesia have all done real life studies. In Brazil there was even a special study in which most of the adults in the town of Serrana were vaccinated with Coronavac. While all those studies showed it to be highly effective in reducing hospitalization and deaths, it was less effective in preventing transmission. It barely scraped by in Brazil. Of course, this was before the advent of the Delta variant. And the Gamma and Lambda variant may be troublesome too. They're strongly present in Chile now. Mortality is on the rise there where most of the people are vaccinated with Sinovac's vaccine.

[Bkk Brian]

Just now, placeholder said:

Of course there are real life studies of the Sinovac vaccine. Brazil, Turkey, Uruguay, Chile, and Indonesia have all done real life studies. In Brazil there was even a special study in which most of the adults in the town of Serrana were vaccinated with Coronavac. While all those studies showed it to be highly effective in reducing hospitalization and deaths, it was less effective in preventing transmission. It barely scraped by in Brazil. Of course, this was before the advent of the Delta variant. And the Gamma and Lambda variant may be troublesome too. They're strongly present in Chile now. Mortality is on the rise there where most of the people are vaccinated with Sinovac's vaccine.

Did you not notice I said against Delta? Please link up to that study?

[placeholder]

Just now, Bkk Brian said:

Did you not notice I said against Delta? Please link up to that study?

I sensed that strike 3 was coming. As you'll see, I noted that none of the studies were for Delta. Still, my bad. You were correct. There are no studies re Delta. Still, it is now in Chile which has the 2 other varieties which may even be more virulent. Peru has been afflicted with them and mortality there is about 8 times the rate elsewhere. Of course, the public health service is not great, large groups of people live together, and obesity is prevalent. I read somewhere that 52% of the population is obese.

[oldcpu]

1 hour ago, Bkk Brian said:

There is no real life study with delta and Sinovac regards effectiveness.

I also have not read a real world study on Sinovac vs the Delta variant.  However the link I provided does provide the statistics of medical workers infected from 1-April to 10-July, where given the dates,  one can be pretty certain that a large % is the delta variant ....   What is needed now is for someone to take this and do a study. 

 

Again - Thai link is here:  https://www.khaosod.co.th/covid-19/news_6506545

 

I have copied below the image from that web site.  Further, here is my understanding (sort of translation  plus some of my interpretations) from that image ... however I do NOT speak nor read Thai, so I would be happy to be corrected by any who read Thai: ..

= = = = = = = = = = =

Statistics are for 1 April to 10 July 2021 (Thailand).

 

1 sinovac (only) jab - #received vaccine and tested = 22,062.
(Not included 2 jabs in this #).
Note there is only a small # with one jab as the second jab is given very soon ( about 3 weeks) after 1st jab.
- infected = 68 (0.3082%)
- mild = 67 (0.3036%)
- serious = 0
- death = 1 (0.0045%)

 

2 sinovac jabs
- #received vaccine and tested = 677,348
- infected = 618 (0.0912%)
- mild = 597 (0.0881%)
- serious = 20 (0.0029%)
- death = 1 (0.0001%%)

 

1 AstraZeneca jab
- #received vaccine and tested = 66,913
- infected = 45 (0.0672%)
- mild = 43 (0.0642%)
- serious = 2 (0.0020%)
- death = 0

= = = = = = = = = = = =

Armed with the above from the website/image (which is for high risk medical workers in Thailand who are exposed more to the pandemic) one can then compare that to overall Thailand totals (which is a mix of a small % vaccinated and a larger % not vaccinated) and I think one can see that the overall Thailand % of infected (mild + serious + death) is far FAR worse than those Medical workers vaccinated (on a per capita basis). 

 

So the Sinovac / AstraZeneca vaccination is just a placebo ?   I seriously doubt it.  or a pretty amazing / fantastically good placebo. ... BUT I agree - it would be good to see a formal peer review study on this , as by now there must be a lot of data on this pandemic, on the vaccinations, and on the infections.

 

Edited July 17, 2021 by oldcpu

[Bkk Brian]

18 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

I also have not read a real world study on Sinovac vs the Delta variant.  However the link I provided does provide the statistics of medical workers infected from 1-April to 10-July, where given the dates,  one can be pretty certain that a large % is the delta variant ....   What is needed now is for someone to take this and do a study. 

 

Again - Thai link is here:  https://www.khaosod.co.th/covid-19/news_6506545

 

I have copied below the image from that web site.  Further, here is my understanding (sort of translation  plus some of my interpretations) from that image ... however I do NOT speak nor read Thai, so I would be happy to be corrected by any who read Thai: ..

= = = = = = = = = = =

Statistics are for 1 April to 10 July 2021 (Thailand).

 

1 sinovac (only) jab - #received vaccine and tested = 22,062.
(Not included 2 jabs in this #).
Note there is only a small # with one jab as the second jab is given very soon ( about 3 weeks) after 1st jab.
- infected = 68 (0.3082%)
- mild = 67 (0.3036%)
- serious = 0
- death = 1 (0.0045%)

 

2 sinovac jabs
- #received vaccine and tested = 677,348
- infected = 618 (0.0912%)
- mild = 597 (0.0881%)
- serious = 20 (0.0029%)
- death = 1 (0.0001%%)

 

1 AstraZeneca jab
- #received vaccine and tested = 66,913
- infected = 45 (0.0672%)
- mild = 43 (0.0642%)
- serious = 2 (0.0020%)
- death = 0

= = = = = = = = = = = =

Armed with the above from the website/image (which is for high risk medical workers in Thailand who are exposed more to the pandemic) one can then compare that to Thailand totals overall (which is a mix of a small % vaccinated and a larger % not vaccinated) and I think one can see that Thailand % of infected (mild + serious + death) is far FAR worse than those vaccinated. 

 

So the vaccination is just a placebo ?   I seriously doubt it.  or a pretty amazing / fantastically good placebo. ... BUT I agree - it would be good to see a formal peer review study on this , as by now there must be a lot of data on this pandemic, on the vaccinations, and on the infections.

 

Delta was not detected until late May.

 

Actually mush easier to do a case study right now from the latest incident in a hospital in Bangkok where delta is the prominent strain:

 

Ramathibodi hospital has suspended some services due to 300 medics being infected. This is in just one hospital and we know from statistics published by the government that around 98% of medical workers in Bangkok have been vaccinated, mainly with Sinovac

 

So its not a difficult task and study to initiate by the health service. 

 

Ramathibodi, Police General hospitals suspend emergency room service, restrict outpatients

 

The hospital added that there were over 1,000 Covid-19 patients under its care, and over 200 remained in emergency rooms. Meanwhile, over 300 medics have reportedly been infected with the virus.

 

The Police General Hospital also announced on its Facebook page the suspension of emergency room service, the receiving of new patients and surgical operations, except in emergency cases, and curtailment of outpatient treatment. The hospital has also barred people from visiting patients admitted in the hospital. This announcement came after several medics were found infected with Covid-19.

 

https://www.nationthailand.com/in-focus/40003366

 

 

Edited July 17, 2021 by Bkk Brian

[jerrymahoney]

According to the BP 11 JULY 677,348 THAI medical workers received two shots of Sinovac and 618 were positive COVID -19. One nurse succumbed and one medic remains in critical condition.

Edited July 17, 2021 by jerrymahoney

[tonray]

34 minutes ago, jerrymahoney said:

According to the BP 11 JULY 677,348 THAI medical workers received two shots of Sinovac and 618 were positive COVID -19. One nurse succumbed and one medic remains in critical condition.

That's 0.09 % infected using Sinovac....pretty small so far.

[oldcpu]

34 minutes ago, jerrymahoney said:

According to the BP 11 JULY 677,348 THAI medical workers received two shots of Sinovac and 618 were positive COVID -19. One nurse succumbed and one medic remains in critical condition.

Yes and those statistics with even more detail is in the two posts I posted above - one in Thai languge (link and jpeg image) and the other post my feeble attempt to help translate.  

 

One medical worker in the 618 (677,348 double dose of Sinovac infected) died.   And one worker in the 68 (22,062 only one dose of Sinovac) died.

 

The info I provided also indicates for how many it was only mild symptoms (597 out of 618 only mild symptoms for 2 doses ... and 67 out of 68 only mild symptoms).

 

Did you see the two posts I made where the statistics were provided?

[Bkk Brian]

Ramathibodi Hospital suspends some services as 300 medics infected with COVID-19

 

 

[oldcpu]

8 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

Delta was not detected until late May.

 

Yes - and typically in such cases, BEFORE any variant is detected, it is already present in some numbers. 

 

The statistics I provided did not suddenly end in May - rather they started just before May (on 1-April) and they went to 10-July.  Given that Delta is the dominant variant at present, I think it reasonable to assume that the Medical workers were heavily exposed to the Delta variant (in addition to the Alpha) and that is reflected in those numbers.

 

I do re-iterate. that give the amount of data I suspect the Hospitals and authorities now have, it would be useful for there to be some peer reviewed reviews, summarizing the various statistics.

[Bkk Brian]

Just now, oldcpu said:

Yes - and typically in such cases, BEFORE any variant is detected, it is already present in some numbers. 

 

The statistics I provided did not suddenly end in May - rather they started just before May (on 1-April) and they went to 10-July.  Given that Delta is the dominant variant at present, I think it reasonable to assume that the Medical workers were heavily exposed to the Delta variant (in addition to the Alpha) and that is reflected in those numbers.

 

I do re-iterate. that give the amount of data I suspect the Hospitals and authorities now have, it would be useful for there to be some peer reviewed reviews, summarizing the various statistics.

It is but the delta was found in worker camps in late May that were sealed and no sequence of the Delta variant was found before that, it was all alpha. 

 

Delta has only recently travelled to the Provinces in regards to significant percentages. Again this is through the sequencing carried out. 

 

In Bangkok now its estimated to be well over 50% so the recent hospital infection with 300 medics is an ideal study

[mackayae]

On 7/9/2021 at 8:01 AM, JAS21 said:

Yes, I was down to get the 2nd AZ jab after 16 weeks… yesterday received a phone call saying that it will now be at 12 weeks.

What is the recommended window between shots?

[oldcpu]

4 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Ramathibodi Hospital suspends some services as 300 medics infected with COVID-19

This is sad to read - my understanding is that is a very large hospital.

 

I went to the ThaiPBS article  (  https://www.thaipbsworld.com/ramathibodi-hospital-suspends-some-services-as-300-medics-infected-with-covid-19/ ) where that originates from, and they don't, unfortunately, state how may mild infection, how many serious, nor if any in ICU. 

 

Sinovac's efficacy for stopping one from catching the virus is not great (compared to some other vaccines) and rather it tends to be more effective in ensuring the infection is mild with less severe cases and less instances of death.    Hence those statistics, which the article does not (yet) provide, are important.

[JAS21]

2 minutes ago, mackayae said:

What is the recommended window between shots?

If you Google … what is the recommended time period between two Astrazeneca vaccination shots

 

It suggests 12 weeks… but I’m no expert 

[Bkk Brian]

6 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

This is sad to read - my understanding is that is a very large hospital.

 

I went to the ThaiPBS article  (  https://www.thaipbsworld.com/ramathibodi-hospital-suspends-some-services-as-300-medics-infected-with-covid-19/ ) where that originates from, and they don't, unfortunately, state how may mild infection, how many serious, nor if any in ICU. 

 

Sinovac's efficacy for stopping one from catching the virus is not great (compared to some other vaccines) and rather it tends to be more effective in ensuring the infection is mild with less severe cases and less instances of death.    Hence those statistics, which the article does not (yet) provide, are important.

Indeed thats exactly why I said its a perfect study opportunity as gathering data in one hospital is not difficult for them.

 

From the 6th July delta was responsible for over 52% of cases in Bangkok so will be higher now. In the provinces at that time it was only 32%.

 

Another reason that this is a significant test case.