Thai study finds 2 doses of Sinovac can’t beat Delta variant, AstraZeneca can

[misterjames]

5 minutes ago, Selatan said:

Pfizer's vaccine, which most Malaysian healthcare workers were vaccinated with, also not doing that well:

2,341 fully vaccinated healthcare workers contracted Covid-19

 

Looks like all the current vaccines may need boosters or add-ons.

Just read the article there is literally no mention of Pfizer in the article it just mentions vaccinated healthcare workers and it looks like they weren't hospitalised or dying like the Indonesian Doctors that took Sinovac :

 

Quote from your article

 

"Out of the total number of healthcare workers who contracted the virus after being fully vaccinated, 778 cases were Category 1 (asymptomatic) while 1,559 cases were Category 2 (mild symptoms) patients."

 

[The Hammer2021]

On 7/9/2021 at 7:36 PM, RichardColeman said:

So they are still ordering and paying for and injecting stuff that doesn't work. 

 

You can only assume someone is earning greatly out these deal with China

Across the board it is efficacious but it was a stop gap measure until further developments and this was always known and told to me by my Thai Dr. Get what you can as soon as you can and choose more selectively as soon as you can...October..

 

[misterjames]

Just now, The Hammer2021 said:

Across the board it is efficacious

 

It's just not though. Look at Indonesia

 

1 minute ago, The Hammer2021 said:

it was a stop gap measure until further developments and this was always known and told to me by my Thai Dr. Get what you can as soon as you can and choose more selectively as soon as you can...October..

 

But why though? they could have joined COVAX and got plenty of more effective mRNA vaccines instead of the ineffective Chinese one's but they refused to join COVAX there is more to this decision than meets the eye. 

[Selatan]

16 minutes ago, misterjames said:

Just read the article there is literally no mention of Pfizer in the article it just mentions vaccinated healthcare workers and it looks like they weren't hospitalised or dying like the Indonesian Doctors that took Sinovac :

 

Quote from your article

 

"Out of the total number of healthcare workers who contracted the virus after being fully vaccinated, 778 cases were Category 1 (asymptomatic) while 1,559 cases were Category 2 (mild symptoms) patients."

 

Trust me, I'm a Malaysian, I have front-liner (healthcare workers, policemen, soldiers) friends. They were mostly vaccinated with Pfizer's vaccine because the vaccine rollout in Malaysia started off with the Pfizer's vaccine.

Malaysian PM Muhyiddin receives COVID-19 jab as vaccine roll-out begins

 

Quote

KUALA LUMPUR: Malaysian Prime Minister Muhyiddin Yassin received the first dose of Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine on Wednesday (Feb 24), kicking off the national COVID-19 immunisation programme

I believe that the number of serious cases and deaths among the vaccinated were downplayed because there were rumours that some front-liners in Malaysia have died. Anyway, you don't have to believe me. All vaccines are not working that well. You can see the same problem in Hungary:

Hundreds have died in Hungary after receiving the coronavirus vaccine

 

[The Hammer2021]

Nothing absolutely beats delta or other variations. Vaccines mitigate against, death, serious illness or hospitalizations..Some better than others. The TV debate is long behind the curve and not helpful.

[misterjames]

13 minutes ago, Selatan said:

Trust me, I'm a Malaysian
 

I trust that you are Malaysian and judging by your stance I can imagine your heritage. I can't trust you though I need facts not conspiracies.

 

13 minutes ago, Selatan said:

I believe that the number of serious cases and deaths among the vaccinated were downplayed because there were rumours that some front-liners in Malaysia have died. 

Rumours are not facts.

 

13 minutes ago, Selatan said:

Anyway, you don't have to believe me. 

I don't. The statistics do not fit what you are claiming.

 

 

Edited July 11, 2021 by misterjames

[Selatan]

1 minute ago, misterjames said:

I trust that you are Malaysian and judging by your stance I can imagine your heritage. I can't trust you though I need facts not conspiracies.

 

Rumours are not facts.

 

I don't.

It's ok not to believe me that they were mostly vaccinated with Pfizer's vaccine.

 

But what about the Pfizer deaths in Hungary? My fabrication too?

[misterjames]

8 minutes ago, Selatan said:

It's ok not to believe me that they were mostly vaccinated with Pfizer's vaccine.

You claim so, but the source you provide doesn't mention which vaccine they were given. 

 

Also even if they were all Pfizer vaccines (which is not stated) the statistics show (in your own quoted article) that the vast majority of cases were asymptomatic with a few of the healthcare workers developing mild symptoms. 

 

When compared to what happened to the Sinovac vaccinated healthcare workers in Indonesia that are dying and being hospitalised there is a clearly big difference, so it's clear whatever vaccine the healthcare workers in Malaysia had it was far superior to the Chinese stuff.

 

Edited July 11, 2021 by misterjames

[Selatan]

1 minute ago, misterjames said:

You claim so, but the source you provide doesn't mention the vaccine. 

 

Also even if they were all Pfizer vaccines the statistics show (in your own quoted article) that the vast majority of cases were asymptomatic with a few of the healthcare workers developing mild symptoms. 

 

When compared to what happened to the Sinovac vaccinated healthcare workers in Indonesia that are dying and being hospitalised there is a clearly big difference, so it's clear whatever vaccine the healthcare workers in Malaysia had it was far superior to the Chinese stuff.

 

 

 

Malaysia receives first batch of Covid-19 vaccines

 

Quote

The first shipment of Covid-19 vaccines for Malaysia touched down at Kuala Lumpur International Airport yesterday morning, with another consignment making its way overland from Singapore to Johor in the afternoon.

The 312,390 doses had made several stops since leaving the Pfizer plant in Belgium, including in Leipzig, Germany and Singapore, which is the Asia-Pacific distribution hub for the much-awaited Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine.

Some 16 secret locations nationwide will hold the vaccines, including four in Johor which received 73,710 doses through the Causeway.

Quote

Half a million front-liners, mostly healthcare workers who are at the heart of the nation's fight against the deadly pandemic, will be prioritised in the first phase of the NIP.

Satisfied now?

Why the hesitancy in commenting on the Hungarian Pfizer deaths? Too embarrassing?

[misterjames]

10 minutes ago, Selatan said:

Malaysia receives first batch of Covid-19 vaccines

 

Satisfied now?

No, not really showing a news article from February about a delivery proves nothing.

 

10 minutes ago, Selatan said:

Why the hesitancy in commenting on the Hungarian Pfizer deaths? 

Because you are clearly travelling around the world trying to find stories from dubious sources that fit your pro-Sinovac narrative. Whilst ignoring the deaths and hospitalisations of healthcare workers in Indonesia.

 

Now that is embarrassing and also off topic. 

 

 

Edited July 11, 2021 by misterjames

[gearbox]

2 hours ago, misterjames said:

The sick and dead Indonesian Doctors would disagree with you.

 

"JAKARTA (Reuters) -- More than 350 Indonesian doctors have contracted COVID-19 despite being vaccinated with Sinovac, and dozens have been hospitalized, officials said, as concerns rise about the efficacy of some vaccines against more virulent virus strains."

 

https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Coronavirus/COVID-vaccines/Hundreds-of-Sinovac-injected-Indonesian-doctors-contract-COVID

There are breakthrough cases with any vaccine. At least the Indonesians published something, UK is dead silent. There were reports for 50 deaths of fully vaccinated people infected with the Delta variant a while ago. Since then nothing...and cases and deaths are going up. They had probably 200+ deaths this week, how many were fully vaccinated?

Edited July 11, 2021 by gearbox

[misterjames]

Just now, gearbox said:

At least the Indonesians published something, UK is dead silent. There were reports for 50 deaths of fully vaccinated people infected with the Delta variant a while ago.

I guess you missed this bit. Some people only see what they want to see.

 

"“real-world” analysis of 14,019 cases of the Delta variant in the UK, released by Public Health England in June, found the BioNTech/Pfizer and Oxford/AstraZeneca vaccines were, respectively, 96 per cent and 92 per cent effective against hospitalisation after two doses."

 

https://www.ft.com/content/5a24d39a-a702-40d2-876d-b12a524dc9a5

[phills2k1]

Sorry if this has been discussed to death, but have they actually made progress producing the Astrazaneca or are they just relying on donations and acting like it's no big deal?

[Selatan]

6 minutes ago, misterjames said:

No, not really showing a news article from February about a delivery proves nothing.

 

Because you are clearly travelling around the world trying to find stories from dubious sources that fit your pro-Sinovac narrative. Whilst ignoring the deaths and hospitalisations of healthcare workers in Indonesia.

 

Now that is embarrassing and also off topic. 

 

 

Proves nothing? The news from Singapore must be fake then. Or maybe you think the first batch of Pfizer vaccines that Malaysia had received were given to ordinary people, not front-liners. Which is which?

Hey, please comment on the Hungarian Pfizer deaths. Maybe you want to say that's fake too.

[misterjames]

15 minutes ago, Selatan said:

please comment on the Hungarian Pfizer deaths. Maybe you want to say that's fake too.

No, because I do not comment on biased off topic propaganda.

 

"Accurate conclusions cannot be drawn from the table since it ignores multiple conditions that would level the playing field of its variables, and allow for the valid comparison of vaccine types."

 

"This post coincides with the government’s huge Sinopharm-campaign"

 

https://hungarytoday.hu/hungary-vaccines-vaccine-effectiveness-inoculation-vaccine-effectiveness-comparison-pfizer-sputnik-sinopharm/

 

Nice try though:D

 

 

Edited July 11, 2021 by misterjames

[Scott]

This will be the only notice to stop posting false or misleading information.   A newspaper article is NOT a scientific study.  Continue and suspensions will be given.  

 

Minimizing the seriousness of Covid or attempts to discourage people from being vaccinated is against the forum rules and not in compliance with the Emergency Decree.  

 

You have been warned.

[gearbox]

11 minutes ago, misterjames said:

I guess you missed this bit. Some people only see what they want to see.

 

"“real-world” analysis of 14,019 cases of the Delta variant in the UK, released by Public Health England in June, found the BioNTech/Pfizer and Oxford/AstraZeneca vaccines were, respectively, 96 per cent and 92 per cent effective against hospitalisation after two doses."

 

https://www.ft.com/content/5a24d39a-a702-40d2-876d-b12a524dc9a5

There is no comparison between the FT article and the Indonesia article in your link. The Indonesian Delta breakthrough cases are not a study, it is a reported number not a percentage. Furthermore there is no indication whether they were fully vaccinated or only had one shot.

As other people pointed out too, there is still no reliable information for Sinovac with the Delta variant.

 

Thailand just published some data, again this is not a real study.

 

https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/hundreds-thai-medical-workers-infected-despite-sinovac-vaccinations-2021-07-11/

 

Hundreds infected out of 677 thousands fully inoculated, one died and one in critical condition. Seems the vaccine is working or or it appears so. Someone published a link that the medical workers have 7 times higher chance ti get covid,  so that's probably the most exposed group.

Again this is not a published study, it is a newspaper article. A study would have way more detailed information.

[misterjames]

 

5 minutes ago, gearbox said:

Again this is not a published study, it is a newspaper article. A study would have way more detailed information.

“real-world” analysis of 14,019 cases of the Delta variant in the UK, released by Public Health England in June, found the BioNTech/Pfizer and Oxford/AstraZeneca vaccines were, respectively, 96 per cent and 92 per cent effective against hospitalisation after two doses." 

 

What I posted is an analysis by Public Health England not FT. 

[gearbox]

22 minutes ago, Selatan said:

Proves nothing? The news from Singapore must be fake then. Or maybe you think the first batch of Pfizer vaccines that Malaysia had received were given to ordinary people, not front-liners. Which is which?

Hey, please comment on the Hungarian Pfizer deaths. Maybe you want to say that's fake too.

The Hungarian numbers are absolutely not fake, but there are big nuances. The Hungarian government purchased a number of vaccines, but the distribution of the vaccines was not statistically equal. Pfizer was administered to older and more vulnerable people,  which do have worse outcome compared to the others under the same conditions. Did old people die in Norway from the Pfizer vaccine? Yes, but eh, I don't know if I'm going to make it to 85 or 90 with or without vaccine. These were very old and frail people.

If tomorrow there is a study in Thailand which says the same number of fully vaccinated AZ and Sinovac people died, it won't reflect the true circumstances. I know people as young as 20 vaccinated with Sinovac, these are not going to die whether vaccinated or not. On the other hand, at least initially, AZ was administered to people above 60,  they are much more vulnerable.

[misterjames]

18 minutes ago, gearbox said:

The Hungarian numbers are absolutely not fake

"that based off current data Sinopharm is better than Pfizer, and Sputnik V is the best of all vaccine"

 

I'd say that is pretty dubious at best.

 

"He did not provide any of the data he mentioned."

 

No data / numbers were provided.

 

"This post coincides with the government’s huge Sinopharm-campaign"

 

This would point to bias.

 

https://hungarytoday.hu/hungary-vaccines-vaccine-effectiveness-inoculation-vaccine-effectiveness-comparison-pfizer-sputnik-sinopharm/

 

 

Edited July 11, 2021 by misterjames

[gearbox]

7 minutes ago, misterjames said:

 

"He did not provide any of the data he mentioned."

 

No data / numbers were provided.

 

https://hungarytoday.hu/hungary-vaccines-vaccine-effectiveness-inoculation-vaccine-effectiveness-comparison-pfizer-sputnik-sinopharm/

 

 

"With data drawn from December 26, 2020 to April 20, 2021, the table shared how many people have caught the coronavirus or passed away following their second inoculation, both in total and proportionately to 100 thousand vaccinated people."

 

The table was just a simple count of the conditions above - how many fully vaccinated people with each vaccine died (total) and per 100 thousand jabs.

 

However:

 

https://hungarytoday.hu/hungary-vaccine-table-vaccines-efficacy-program-best-vaccines/

 

"Ferenci is most frustrated by the fact that the methodology of the information shared by the table is not clear. It cannot be known which vaccinated age group was analyzed, and how many of the people who received specific vaccines had an underlying illness."

 

The experts don't dispute the numbers, which are just counts,  the Hungarian government reiterated the numbers were correct. But as above if you apply different vaccines to different target groups you'll get different outcomes, it becomes "apples and oranges" question.

 

 

[misterjames]

12 minutes ago, gearbox said:

"Ferenci is most frustrated by the fact that the methodology of the information shared by the table is not clear. It cannot be known which vaccinated age group was analyzed, and how many of the people who received specific vaccines had an underlying illness."

Exactly as I quoted:

 

"Accurate conclusions cannot be drawn from the table since it ignores multiple conditions that would level the playing field of its variables, and allow for the valid comparison of vaccine types."

 

For all we know they could have injected only the very old and terminally ill with the good stuff and the Sinovac to the young and healthy.

 

That's exactly why I don't trust this Hungary nonsense.

 

 

Edited July 11, 2021 by misterjames

[Thunglom]

"a study" = 1 study.

I suspect that there is a political, financial or Sinophobic motive behind this.

[Bkk Brian]

4 minutes ago, Thunglom said:

"a study" = 1 study.

I suspect that there is a political, financial or Sinophobic motive behind this.

But 1 study is better than 0 studies. The rest is pure speculation

[placeholder]

9 hours ago, gearbox said:

Sinovac is the world's most used vaccine. I wish them well, I hope it works, as I want to resume my normal life and travel as soon as possible. Wishing well to all other manufacturers too, if their vaccines work we'll be out of this hole sooner.

It is the most used because it's the one there's the most of and is more readily available. China just signed an order for 100 million doses of the Pfizer vaccine but is going to have to wait until next year to receive it.

[Thunglom]

52 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

But 1 study is better than 0 studies. The rest is pure speculation

NO! one study on it's own can be actually misleading.

I confess I'm not interested enough to find and read this study. I don't how many people were involved, what art of bling=ding or control was used and I certainly haven't read any peer reviews. ....but one can be pretty sure that this study has been done very rapidly and how accurate or even how many people are involve is not known.

One wonders why at such short notice why this study has been published, but if somewhere in the conclusion it say "further research is required" we can be fairly sure that even those involved aren't convinced by their conclusions.

 

here's a good guide to studies and what they mean......

 

Edited July 11, 2021 by Thunglom

[Tony125]

6 hours ago, misterjames said:

The sick and dead Indonesian Doctors would disagree with you.

 

"JAKARTA (Reuters) -- More than 350 Indonesian doctors have contracted COVID-19 despite being vaccinated with Sinovac, and dozens have been hospitalized, officials said, as concerns rise about the efficacy of some vaccines against more virulent virus strains."

 

https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Coronavirus/COVID-vaccines/Hundreds-of-Sinovac-injected-Indonesian-doctors-contract-COVID

 

Hundreds of Thai medical workers infected despite Sinovac vaccinations

 

https://www.yahoo.com/news/hundreds-thai-medical-workers-infected-092123931.html

[misterjames]

3 minutes ago, Tony125 said:

 

Hundreds of Thai medical workers infected despite Sinovac vaccinations

 

https://www.yahoo.com/news/hundreds-thai-medical-workers-infected-092123931.html

No surprises here then. Imagine what it will be like when the Delta variant hits.

 

Some don't wanna hear it but Sinovac is proving to be fairly useless. 

[placeholder]

4 hours ago, Selatan said:

Malaysia receives first batch of Covid-19 vaccines

 

Satisfied now?

Why the hesitancy in commenting on the Hungarian Pfizer deaths? Too embarrassing?

What hungaraian pfizer deaths are you referring to? Is that the table that was released by the Hungarian govt?

[gk10012001]

ok.  how about other vaccines, Pfizer, or single jab Johnson and Johnson, or Moderna?  I guess because these others are not available in any size in Thailand.  Might be useful to gather all the data.  But to be fair, the variant is fairly new, and there will be other variants also.  Messing with RNA or updating it, testing it, distributing it is not trivial.  Even Flu vaccine makers have to guess many months in advance what flu strain vaccine to make and process and then distribute, and of course new strain mutations show up in the interim