Thailand's 'draconian' alcohol laws in the spotlight

[zzaa09]

37 minutes ago, Bangkok Barry said:

I've long thought it's funny that in the United States, even each State doesn't have united laws within it.

The principle behind "States Rights" overrules most federal laws.

[billd766]

7 hours ago, robblok said:

Im saying all laws are flawed because you can't catch everyone. Laws just deter some people (the more the better) but like drug laws only a few really stop. And yes some laws are stupid.

 

However i looked at this wrongly, poster @Mac Mickmanus gave me a much better idea. 

 

Just go after the shop owners with huge fines and closure. It will be hard to catch enough kids to make a meaningful difference but if you go after shopwners you stop it at the source.

Ans how about the majority of legitimate customers who will also suffer if the grog shops get closed? There are far more of them than there are underaged children alcohol buyers.

 

Your idea is like using a steam hammer to crack a walnut. 

[robblok]

1 minute ago, billd766 said:

Ans how about the majority of legitimate customers who will also suffer if the grog shops get closed? There are far more of them than there are underaged children alcohol buyers.

 

Your idea is like using a steam hammer to crack a walnut. 

Bild its simple they should stop selling alcohol to minors. If there are far more normal buyers then underage ones then not selling it to them should be easy.

 

I don't really get your problem Bild, first you complain about the closing hours then you complain about a solution that works. Other solutions would just not work. Policing the kids wont work as its too hard to catch a lot of them. So it makes more sense to force shops to obey the rules. Now if that means some shops close down so be it. 

 

So what do you prefer the current solution ? or punishing shops so they wont sell to minors. Could even make it so that it takes 5 offences before a shop closes. I mean how many warnings do you want to give out before serious punishment happens ?

 

I mean to make stuff work there need to be some big teeth otherwise they keep selling to minors. 

[trainman34014]

12 hours ago, DrJack54 said:

First time I ever heard a new term for me was an American guy and we were about to drive into town.

He asked if I wanted a "Road Coke". (Bottle of booze for the trip).

In Oz we call that a "Traveller" 

In England we call it Drinking and Driving !

[wwest5829]

12 hours ago, bbko said:

I lived in Thailand so long and became so used to it's alcohol laws that when I returned to the US I was actually amazed I could buy beer from 2-5pm. ????????

Just not on Sunday, in some venues. Then again, Kentucky actually has "wet" and "dry" counties. The latter, alcohol sales are forbidden same as in Sharia Law countries (don't point this out to Kentuckians ... unless you want to be entertained by the answers).

[dinsdale]

1 hour ago, billd766 said:

So what. How many governments and coups have there been since? 17 years to change the laws, including 7 years under this one and it has only got worse.

I was just stating when this happened and who made it happen. No need to get nasty.

[robsamui]

I've been living in Thaiand for 24 years non non-stop and one of the first things I understood (after 'farang kee nee-ow') was that the hi-so Thais - including both the governments that have been in power in this time - regard their citizens as some sort of retarded children. One manifestation of this is the assumption that they can't be allowed alcohol as they will drink it until they fall down unconscious.

 

Well, yes, 24 years ago, with the majority of Thailand (75%) being made up of (deliberately) undereducated and impoverished farmers, this might hve been true.

 

But this is 2021 and Thailand has now been dragged yelping onto the world platform due to Covid, and everything's now being blasted out on international public media.

 

So if a police commander can no longer get away with plastic-bagging a drug pusher to death without it appearing on YouTube,  please, Thai government, wake up and realise that your citizens aren't like they used to be.

 

Allow them alcohol on elections and voting days. Let them buy alcohol around the clock (what idiot came up with an afternoon alcohol ban in convenience stores? Why? Please explain your thinking.)

 

If the demon drink is so beyond control as to potentially ruin society, then let the government have the courage to state it out loud. 

 

Considering their highly questionable statements about Covid and vaccines in the last year, my guess is anyone in government right now would change the subject and walk run away - or lie outright . . . just like they've been doing with the vaccine fiasco.

Edited September 29, 2021 by robsamui

[billd766]

20 minutes ago, robblok said:

Bild its simple they should stop selling alcohol to minors. If there are far more normal buyers then underage ones then not selling it to them should be easy.

 

I don't really get your problem Bild, first you complain about the closing hours then you complain about a solution that works. Other solutions would just not work. Policing the kids wont work as its too hard to catch a lot of them. So it makes more sense to force shops to obey the rules. Now if that means some shops close down so be it. 

 

So what do you prefer the current solution ? or punishing shops so they wont sell to minors. Could even make it so that it takes 5 offences before a shop closes. I mean how many warnings do you want to give out before serious punishment happens ?

 

I mean to make stuff work there need to be some big teeth otherwise they keep selling to minors. 

You seem to get on well with the current draconian government. Harsh punishments without thinking of the majority of people. This probably another way of bringing happiness to the people.

 

The stupid people who come up with kneejerk reactions will not be affected by those petty restrictions.

 

Walnuts and steam hammers. Sure you crack the walnut but it is useless afterwards.

 

I used to be a serious drinker since I was 17/18 but I stopped drinking alcohol on June 1st last year. I haven't had a drop since then and it was MY choice and not the governments or anybody elses decision.

Edited September 29, 2021 by billd766
Bad spelling

[PingRoundTheWorld]

I feel SO much safer with the twitchy guy at the end worried about my safety.

 

Seriously - go to hell yourselves - families coming to Thailand is OVER. The Chinese and Indians aren't coming. The ONLY demographics that may travel in current conditions are single men (and women) and young couples - most of which enjoy a good night out.

 

Regardless of how anyone feels about drinking - it's just facts - nobody is going to travel halfway across the world to be told they can't even go out at night. Phuket got ~40,000 visitors in 3 months - what was it in 2019? more like 3 million? and they were expecting 300,000 thousand. As long as nightlife is shut down they'll keep getting miserable numbers as no one wants to be where the party's NOT at.

 

Open nightlife completely, check ID and vaccination or covid test at the entrance to venues. Done..

[robblok]

1 minute ago, billd766 said:

You seem to get on well with the current draconian government. Harsh punishments without thinking of the majority of people. This probably another way of bringing happiness to the people.

 

The stupid people who come up with kneejerk reactions will not be affected by those petty restrictions.

 

Walnuts and steam hammers. Sure you crack the walnut but it is useless afterwards.

 

I used to be a serious drinker since I was 17/18 but I stopped drinking alcohol on June 1st last year. I haven't had a drop since then and it was MY choice and not the governments or anybody elses decision.

Aha you seem to be a bit like the average moaner. Complain about everything but when asked for solutions they stay silent. Sorry Bild but that is how i see it. Its easy to complain a lot harder to be constructive and come up with solutions.

 

Not sure what is wrong with punishing shops for selling to minors even closure. Its not as if they don't get warned a few times first. I mean if you get warned keep doing it don't you think that should lead to more serious punishment. I guess not because otherwise the majority can't buy their drink. 

 

Maybe the majority should then complain to the shop that they are idiots to sell to minors and dont change even after warnings. 

 

You do know that in the west shops also can  loose their license if they keep selling to minors after multiple warnings ?

 

Good for you I also drink when i want or not. My decision, however I don't get how that is relevant to solving the issue of kids drinking. 

 

So instead of complaining about walnuts and steamrollers what would YOU do to prevent minors from buying alcohol. 

 

 

 

[Mac Mickmanus]

2 hours ago, UTH001 said:

And of course THESE people don't have a fridge or access to ice...

Its to stop people having a beer with lunch and then continuing drinking all day and night .

   Just another beer , and another, just one more , next thing its 11 PM

[kennw]

13 hours ago, NE1 said:

Wasn't the 2 - 5 ban brought in so children leaving school could not see people purchasing or drinking alcohol , as they thought it would be a bad influence on them.

No! it was  brought in when some NGO's said Thailand had an alcoholism problem and they recommended taxing on the basis of alcohol content. But the up country drink is Law cow 40% + but they were Taksin's voters so no way could they do this,so the 2-5 was brought in. Of course it only works in the larger seller places in Bangkok. Total stupid politics. Late lunch in good resturant, no alcohol, walk around the corner to the small shop, no problems    

[DoctorB]

11 hours ago, Mr Meeseeks said:

After he and Purachai brought in the 2am closing which I think happened in 2001 iirc. 

 

Then there were the continuing raids on non-Police owned venues throughout the country in particular Bangkok, where venues deemed immoral were arbitrarily shut down. They had the pee-test bus rock up and test all the ladies, occasionally if they didn't like the look of you they may make a foreigner take a test too. 

 

Things certainly changed for the worse under Thaksin from the glory 'anything goes' days of the 90's and before. 

Actually you've got this slightly skewed. 2.00 am was the usual closing time, certainly for places like Cowboy and Nana, prior to Taksin. After he took power a committee sat (I'm not sure what its official remit was) and recommended a blanket 10.00pm closing time for night entertainment venues (though this never came close to being legislated and enforced), and Purachai, the Interior Minister, was reported in the press as saying that he did not see why anyone would wish to be out and about after 11.00 pm. There was a heavy crack down on venues opening after 2.00 am, and one of the first and saddest of the casualties was the renowned, police owned, Thermae on Sukhumvit, famous from Vietnam war days, which used to close at 6.00 am. (This subsequently morphed into the sad Japanese haunted venue that exists now.) A number of senior police officers were transferred to inactive posts for not closing places promptly and as you say, the pee-test and passport check squads were sent out. New regulations were adopted and even Pattaya had 1.00 am closing enforced for about 2 weeks. In the end Purachai proved too puritanical and fell from grace. His role as morality enforcer was taken over by a deputy Interior Minister whose name I cannot now recall, but who before finally resigning complained that he was being ridiculed by his government colleagues as "Mr Urine" (presumablly a bizarre translation of something like "Khun Pee-Pee"). This whole farce rolled on for about two years until the law was consolidated into what it is now (ie pre-covid). Then by the usual Thai process of lax enforcement things more or less drifted back to what they were; ie places closed if the cops turn up. Before anyone picks me up on details, as with anything to do with Thailand I realise there were endless differences, variations and exceptions but that's the broad picture as I recall it.

[DaveC]

The Thai Generals could give Milley a real run for IQ quotient.

Thailand was an attractive tourist destination!!!

 

[richard_smith237]

1 hour ago, robblok said:

I mean to make stuff work there need to be some big teeth otherwise they keep selling to minors. 

Thats the same with all the laws in Thailand. 

 

The Laws are actually quite decent - the enforcement is poor because they ‘don’t have big teeth’.... or otherwise put, are outright lazy. 

 

But, as Billd wrote... its a ‘Steam Hammer to crack a walnut’...  

 

Is underage drinking actually a problem in Thailand ?

 

 

The issue here is the Police not doing their job....   No Helmets, confiscate the bike, no licence, confiscate the bike or car. No insurance, same....  until a proper fine is paid. 

Drunk Driving - confiscate the car - driving Ban. 

No flexibility, no ‘feeling sorry for them’ or ‘its normal’ etc...

 

Kids found with booze, find out where they got it - fine the shop. Want proof, ’sting’ the shop (send a kid in to buy booze, record it, Fine the shop)....  

 

Effective Policing of real laws is required... not the stupid puritanical targeting of people otherwise perfectly legally having dinner with friends over (Phuket example - where a house was raided with 6 ppl having dinner and drinks’)... 

 

 

 

[robblok]

1 minute ago, richard_smith237 said:

Thats the same with all the laws in Thailand. 

 

The Laws are actually quite decent - the enforcement is poor because they ‘don’t have big teeth’.... or otherwise put, are outright lazy. 

 

But, as Billd wrote... its a ‘Steam Hammer to crack a walnut’...  

 

Is underage drinking actually a problem in Thailand ?

 

 

The issue here is the Police not doing their job....   No Helmets, confiscate the bike, no licence, confiscate the bike or car. No insurance, same....  until a proper fine is paid. 

Drunk Driving - confiscate the car - driving Ban. 

No flexibility, no ‘feeling sorry for them’ or ‘its normal’ etc...

 

Kids found with booze, find out where they got it - fine the shop. Want proof, ’sting’ the shop (send a kid in to buy booze, record it, Fine the shop)....  

 

Effective Policing of real laws is required... not the stupid puritanical targeting of people otherwise perfectly legally having dinner with friends over (Phuket example - where a house was raided with 6 ppl having dinner and drinks’)... 

 

Agreed but if the fine is nothing more then a slap on the fingers the shop will keep doing so. So it needs more then good policing. If a shop is found to keep doing this even after having been fined a few times then isnt it logical that at some point a closure is in order or a really high fine. Because if a shop keeps doing it after being fined more then once they obviously don't care about the fine.

 

If they did this then the hated 2-5 law could be removed and everyone can buy alcohol when they want. (except minors)

 

What is so steamroller about closing a shop after it keeps selling to minors ?

 

Just think what is worse everyone punished by not being able to get alcohol at certain times or that shops that keep selling to minors get closed. 

 

To change this law something has to be put in place that at least does the job. Unless like you said underage drinking is not a problem in Thailand. But if that is not a problem at all then this law should not be there in the first place. 

 

 

[zzaa09]

17 minutes ago, DoctorB said:

Actually you've got this slightly skewed. 2.00 am was the usual closing time, certainly for places like Cowboy and Nana, prior to Taksin. After he took power a committee sat (I'm not sure what its official remit was) and recommended a blanket 10.00pm closing time for night entertainment venues (though this never came close to being legislated and enforced), and Purachai, the Interior Minister, was reported in the press as saying that he did not see why anyone would wish to be out and about after 11.00 pm. There was a heavy crack down on venues opening after 2.00 am, and one of the first and saddest of the casualties was the renowned, police owned, Thermae on Sukhumvit, famous from Vietnam war days, which used to close at 6.00 am. (This subsequently morphed into the sad Japanese haunted venue that exists now.) A number of senior police officers were transferred to inactive posts for not closing places promptly and as you say, the pee-test and passport check squads were sent out. New regulations were adopted and even Pattaya had 1.00 am closing enforced for about 2 weeks. In the end Purachai proved too puritanical and fell from grace. His role as morality enforcer was taken over by a deputy Interior Minister whose name I cannot now recall, but who before finally resigning complained that he was being ridiculed by his government colleagues as "Mr Urine" (presumablly a bizarre translation of something like "Khun Pee-Pee"). This whole farce rolled on for about two years until the law was consolidated into what it is now (ie pre-covid). Then by the usual Thai process of lax enforcement things more or less drifted back to what they were; ie places closed if the cops turn up. Before anyone picks me up on details, as with anything to do with Thailand I realise there were endless differences, variations and exceptions but that's the broad picture as I recall it.

All this above applied largely to BKK. And still does.

Back when these venue early closing policies were enacted, most of the provinces didn't adhere nor find it necessary straight away - under local conditions. Some 20 years later, I've known numerous venues that operate into the wee hours of the morning - local jurisdictions withstanding. 

[3NUMBAS]

full moon partys are gone for good

[eastlight]

12 hours ago, DoctorB said:

 

These are fascinating retrospective justifications. The second one about the monks I have never heard before and is truly original. But I followed the whole saga at the time, along with Purachai's efforts to get the night entertainment industry closed well before midnight, and certainly recall the school argument being used. After all, you can't have a decent moral panic without dragging kids into it.

Purachai wanted the nightlife closed at 10pm!

[alex8912]

13 hours ago, The Fugitive said:

Magnificent post! 100% correct. We knew a poor Thai lady who took her own life because of financial worries caused by lack of tourists.

So she blamed the tourists too lol? 
Not the jumps and hoops the government has set up for stupid reasons at this point? 

[alex8912]

2 hours ago, trainman34014 said:

In England we call it Drinking and Driving !

Same in my part of USA. 

[Jimbo53]

14 hours ago, DrJack54 said:

First time I ever heard a new term for me was an American guy and we were about to drive into town.

He asked if I wanted a "Road Coke". (Bottle of booze for the trip).

In Oz we call that a "Traveller" 

Depends on which part of Oz, in W.A. its a 'Roadie'.????????????

[Jimbo53]

4 hours ago, Dazinoz said:

Well there you go. 58 years as an Aussie in Oz and never hear that term. Learns something everyday.

Yep.only ever knew it as a Roadie in WA.

[alex8912]

4 hours ago, DrJack54 said:

From Google....

 

"Traveller"

Noun: Simiar to Road Rocket. An Alcoholic beverage consumed in route to an event or place where other alcoholic beverages will be consumed" 

 

Everyone I know in Vic at very least would know what a "traveller" is.

Some folk use "roadie". 

In your 58yrs in Oz what do you call it. 

 

Oh so now to be a road rocket you have to be going to another place to drink? Strange. So when Australians go to Walmart or Kangaroomart or out to just buy some vegemite with a beer, what do they call it all knowing!??

Edited September 29, 2021 by alex8912

[billd766]

1 hour ago, robblok said:

Aha you seem to be a bit like the average moaner. Complain about everything but when asked for solutions they stay silent. Sorry Bild but that is how i see it. Its easy to complain a lot harder to be constructive and come up with solutions.

 

Not sure what is wrong with punishing shops for selling to minors even closure. Its not as if they don't get warned a few times first. I mean if you get warned keep doing it don't you think that should lead to more serious punishment. I guess not because otherwise the majority can't buy their drink. 

 

Maybe the majority should then complain to the shop that they are idiots to sell to minors and dont change even after warnings. 

 

You do know that in the west shops also can  loose their license if they keep selling to minors after multiple warnings ?

 

Good for you I also drink when i want or not. My decision, however I don't get how that is relevant to solving the issue of kids drinking. 

 

So instead of complaining about walnuts and steamrollers what would YOU do to prevent minors from buying alcohol. 

 

 

 

You cannot stop youngsters buying alcohol, no more than the PMs word last months that there will be no floods.

 

Even if you ban alcohol completely, (and there will be some serious screaming from the Thai brewers, distillers and importers if they even try to do that), because people will make illegal rotgut stills and children will STILL be able to get hold of it. 

 

Have you read about "Prohibition in the USA about 100 years ago when the government passed a complete ban on alcohol?

 

https://www.history.com/topics/roaring-twenties/prohibition

 

This s what can happen if you shut down alcohol shops. Try reading the article.

 

https://theaseanpost.com/article/danger-bootleg-booze

 

In 2015, Indonesia decided to ban the sale of alcohol at convenience stores and mini-marts, which then created a larger black market for alcohol. According to the Center for Indonesian Policy Studies, “with alcohol being expensive and difficult to obtain, Indonesians drink five times more unrecorded than legally purchased and distributed liquor.” 

 

In Malaysia, concerns over the sale of fake alcohol has risen amid a spate of methanol poisoning cases, which claimed 33 lives in September 2018 alone. 

Methanol poisoning

In 2018, Indonesia experienced one of the worst cases of methanol poisoning leaving more than 100 people dead and over 160 in hospitals in a span of just one month. The victims were reported to have drunk fake alcohol containing fatal amounts of methanol. 

 

Methanol is highly dangerous as it is colourless and odourless which makes it difficult for amateurs to distinguish the mixture from an original brew. Even a small amount of methanol can be toxic and symptoms of poisoning do not appear immediately – taking 12 to 24 hours for the effects to show. Methanol poisoning can cause confusion, dizziness, drowsiness, headaches and the inability to coordinate muscle movements.

 

[djayz]

Never mind, just go to the local mom and pop store and they'll gladly place a box of the stuff in your pick up with a smile. 

Simply ridiculous having this kind of a rule for some stores, but others can do as they please. 

Doesn't bother me either way as I have learned (the hard way) to always have a few bottles cooling in the fridge and a box beside it.  

 

[joecoolfrog]

14 hours ago, Dmaxdan said:

Alcohol has never been blamed for being a factor in avoiding getting Covid, not even here in Thailand.

Thailand reasoning for these restrictions is the effect that alcohol has on the body if you drink enough of it, basically in layman's terms "getting drunk"

Anyone who has ever been drunk knows that their judgment is impaired, their inhibitions are lowered and their brain functions and concentration levels slow down drastically.

All of this means that drunk people will almost certainly forget or more likely, not care about all the Covid protocols that have been put in place such as social distancing, wearing a mask and washing their hands etc.

And this in turn could increase the risk of outbreaks of the disease.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sure , but what stops one from buying several crates of beer in 7 and then getting rat arsed ?

[Dazinoz]

12 hours ago, DrJack54 said:

In your 58yrs in Oz what do you call it. 

Illegal.

 

Actually I never called it anything as I never did it. Having last one before driving was, as I remember it, "one for the road".

Edited September 29, 2021 by Dazinoz

[jacko45k]

10 hours ago, trainman34014 said:

In England we call it Drinking and Driving !

Sadly just as illegal as 'drinking and being  passenger'.......

[Andycoops]

23 hours ago, dinsdale said:

 

Thaksin brought in the 2-5 / midnight-11 law in 2004.

It was ostensibly brought in to prevent school children buying alcohol, as far as I am aware.