Help weighing 20 year Elite Visa vs. marriage visa with 20 annual extensions

[wml22]

Hello all,

 

I was already going to make a thread asking for help weighing these alternatives, but then also saw a recent post by a member with an autoimmune disease who expressed concern that their marriage visa renewal might require additional vaccinations. I have an autoimmune disease and already got the J&J vaccine before coming to Thailand (because it was required for the COE), and had a negative reaction to it. I understand that currently, vaccine booster requirements aren't being considered for visa eligibility, but I do fear that if I stay on a marriage visa, maybe someday I'll be told that I can't get an annual extension without taking something like Sinovac which could be seriously damaging to me because of my preexisting health problems.

 

So I have the following questions about 20 Year Elite visa vs. marriage visa + annual extensions (I apologize that most or all of this information is probably available already by searching the forums, but I want to make sure I don't misunderstand anything and that the current rules haven't changed after old posts may have recorded the answers during previous times):

 

1) For the 20 Year Elite visa, it has to be renewed every five years, but the renewals are all pre-paid (without additional fees or costs at time of renewal), correct? Meaning that when you buy a 20 Year Elite Visa, it's not giving you 20 years as one visa, but it's giving you 5 years plus three five year extensions that have been prepaid. So if I understand correctly, that means that if vaccination booster requirements are eventually imposed for getting visa extensions or renewals, and if I had bought my 20 Year Elite visa in January 2022, then I would not be spared from subjection to the booster requirement until January of 2042. Rather, I would be facing the booster requirement at the time of needing the first of the three 5 year extensions, in January 2027. Is this correct?

 

2) If I buy a 20 Year Elite visa for 1 million baht, do I have to pay any additional extension or renewal fees during the next 20 years, or will the 1 million baht actually be my all-in, total cost for the 20 year period?

 

3) What is the cost analysis of how much more or less expensive the 20 Year Elite visa is compared with getting 20 one-year annual extensions of a marriage visa?

 

4) I currently have 600,000 baht in a Thai bank account in case I was going to go the marriage visa route. But if I want to buy a 20 Year Elite Visa instead, can I pay 500,000 baht from my Thai bank account and 500,000 baht from my U.S. bank account, and would that be accepted without causing other problems (e.g. to make sure, are there any minimum Thai bank balance requirements for maintaining the elite visa, as there are for maintaining the marriage visa)?

 

5) My fiancee and me do not plan to have children, so the prospect of permanent residence through marriage requires that we stay married for five years before applying instead of three years (the time required if we had children). I have read how difficult it is to actually get permanent residence granted. I am inferring that even meeting the five year requirement, my chances of approval would be poor without having had Thai children with my partner. Should permanent residence eligibility even be a realistic consideration when deliberating between choosing the 20 Year Elite visa or the marriage visa route?

 

6) I know this is speculation, but maybe some well-reasoned and educated guesses would be helpful to read, so I'll ask: do you think there's a greater risk that the government in the future will renege on the promise of 20 Year validity after purchasing the 20 Year Elite visa (e.g. if they cancel the elite visas 10 years from now, then they effectively will have stolen 500,000 baht from me, or half of the purchase value), or do you think there's a greater risk, comparatively, that the marriage visa requirements will become more onerous and exclusive (e.g. maybe they could raise the minimum bank balance requirement from 400,000 baht to 2 million baht, or maybe they could change the 90 day reporting to become 45 day reporting, etc.)?

 

7) Are there any other angles that I should consider for making this decision, that I've neglected to ask about in questions 1-6?

 

Thanks so much for any insight that the community may have to share. This forum has been unbelievably helpful to me in getting through the COE process and making it this far in preparing for a life here long-term. I'm very interested to hear your opinions about this dilemma.

Edited October 13, 2021 by wml22

[jackdd]

With the elite visa you have to apply for an extension every year at immigration and pay 1900, just as if you applied for a marriage extension. You just don't need any money seasoned and fewer documents.

[wml22]

7 minutes ago, jackdd said:

With the elite visa you have to apply for an extension every year at immigration and pay 1900, just as if you applied for a marriage extension. You just don't need any money seasoned and fewer documents.

What a big misunderstanding on my part. So I guess the freedom from 90 day reporting and not having to keep 400,000 baht tied up in the bank are the main benefits for someone who is married to a Thai anyway. Along with freedom from the risks that the marriage visa extension requirements could become inflated. But it sounds like if the government for reasons of corruption wants to turn Sinovac or Sinopharm boosters into an ongoing cash cow for bribes from the CCP, for example, to keep ordering more of them every year, then it's likely that having an elite visa wouldn't spare me from being forced to get the booster every year in order to get the extension when I pay the 1900 baht. (That may sound like tinfoil hat thinking but there's almost nothing I wouldn't put past this government at this point.) I doubt I'd be able to get exempted for having an autoimmune disease (not like they care if they kill me IMO).

Edited October 13, 2021 by wml22

[wprime]

Elite visa is 1 year, extended each year.

[wml22]

5 minutes ago, wprime said:

Elite visa is 1 year, extended each year.

When you pay 1,900 to extend an elite visa each year, is it an unlimited multi-entry extension (e.g. I'm free to go back to the U.S. and come back into Thailand every month if I want, theoretically)? Because I think for the marriage visa extension to be multi-entry, it's 3,800 or 5,000 baht or something like that and maybe it's not unlimited exits and entries?

 

With the elite visa being 1 year, extended every year, what are you actually purchasing when you buy the 20 year package? Are you purchasing a guarantee that they will grant 19 annual extensions without having to pay any additional fees aside from the 1,900 baht?

[Ohyesuare]

19 minutes ago, wml22 said:

What a big misunderstanding on my part. So I guess the freedom from 90 day reporting and not having to keep 400,000 baht tied up in the bank are the main benefits for someone who is married to a Thai anyway. Along with freedom from the risks that the marriage visa extension requirements could become inflated. But it sounds like if the government for reasons of corruption wants to turn Sinovac or Sinopharm boosters into an ongoing cash cow for bribes from the CCP, for example, to keep ordering more of them every year, then it's likely that having an elite visa wouldn't spare me from being forced to get the booster every year in order to get the extension when I pay the 1900 baht. (That may sound like tinfoil hat thinking but there's almost nothing I wouldn't put past this government at this point.) I doubt I'd be able to get exempted for having an autoimmune disease (not like they care if they kill me IMO).

There's no freedom from 90 day reporting. Even with the Elite visa, you still need to do them. They have an office that'll do them free for you in Bangkok/Pattaya and maybe a few other cities. Elite is targeted towards people who are frequent travellers and usually don't stay in Thailand a full year, your one year is renewed with every entry. It doesn't protect you otherwise from any potential future requirements as we saw that people with Elite visas were having almost as much trouble returning to Thailand when the borders were closed and restrictions were more strict.

[Moonlover]

Covid 19 vaccination is not compulsory in Thailand, therefor it stands to reason it will not be compulsory to be vaccinated to obtain an extension. There certainly has been no official indication of this.

 

Besides, as you have a medical condition that makes vaccination inadvisable, get yourself a medical exemption certificate. That should fix it.

 

I really don't think you need be concerned about this.

[Ohyesuare]

6 minutes ago, wml22 said:

When you pay 1,900 to extend an elite visa each year, is it an unlimited multi-entry extension (e.g. I'm free to go back to the U.S. and come back into Thailand every month if I want, theoretically)? Because I think for the marriage visa extension to be multi-entry, it's 3,800 or 5,000 baht or something like that and maybe it's not unlimited exits and entries?

Yes it's unlimited entries, and you get one year each time. Obviously this was more appealing before COVID and all its restrictions. But yes, with the 20 year Elite visa, you are guaranteed unlimited entries for the full term you pay for. Of course, it's always subject to change at their discretion which it states in their terms.

[Rampant Rabbit]

Only  ONE  thing you NEED  to  know....they can change the rules  at any time and it says  so  in their blurb

[DrJack54]

33 minutes ago, wml22 said:

I understand that currently, vaccine booster requirements aren't being considered for visa eligibility, but I do fear that if I stay on a marriage visa, maybe someday I'll be told that I can't get an annual extension without taking something like Sinovac which could be seriously damaging to me because of my preexisting health problems

Hope this is not dismissive but personally I think you are worrying prematurely.

Also no need to get married.

If you can place 800k in a Thai bank and just leave it, then do annual extensions based on retirement. 

True vaccinations may become required for some jobs but really that's of no concern to you.

Re multiple reentry permit they are 3800baht and unlimited entries.

My vote goes to annual extensions from a non O based on retirement.

Personally I would choose that option even if I was married.

Chill.....

[wml22]

1 minute ago, Ohyesuare said:

Yes it's unlimited entries, and you get one year each time. Obviously this was more appealing before COVID and all its restrictions. But yes, with the 20 year Elite visa, you are guaranteed unlimited entries for the full term you pay for. Of course, it's always subject to change at their discretion which it states in their terms.

To make sure I understand, that means there are two circumstances for activating the 1-year extension:

 

1) I buy in Jan. 2022. I leave Thailand to visit folks in the U.S. on June 1st and return on July 1st. When I land at the airport, I am given a 1 year extension stamp at the airport (cost: 1,900 baht) and my new expiration is July 2023. Perk of this activation method, of entry into Thailand, is that I don't have to go to the immigration office.

 

2) That means to not overstay, if I don't travel again, I must go to immigration in June 2023 and manually apply at immigration for the 1 year extension (cost: 1,900 baht) and my new expiration is July 2024.

 

So I'm actually paying 1,900 baht every time that I come into Thailand, but each of those instances extends the visa out +12 months. It means though that if I exit and re-enter Thailand 10 times in one year, I pay 19,000 baht for what is effectively just a 1-year extension, because I'm paying for the extension every time I enter?

[wml22]

4 minutes ago, DrJack54 said:

Hope this is not dismissive but personally I think you are worrying prematurely.

Also no need to get married.

If you can place 800k in a Thai bank and just leave it, then do annual extensions based on retirement. 

True vaccinations may become required for some jobs but really that's of no concern to you.

Re multiple reentry permit they are 3800baht and unlimited entries.

My vote goes to annual extensions from a non O based on retirement.

Personally I would choose that option even if I was married.

Chill.....

I wish that was an option but I'm not old enough to qualify for the retirement visa. I should have clarified that in the first post.

[wml22]

10 minutes ago, Moonlover said:

Covid 19 vaccination is not compulsory in Thailand, therefor it stands to reason it will not be compulsory to be vaccinated to obtain an extension. There certainly has been no official indication of this.

 

Besides, as you have a medical condition that makes vaccination inadvisable, get yourself a medical exemption certificate. That should fix it.

 

I really don't think you need be concerned about this.

I didn't know a medical exemption certificate could be a possibility here. Thanks for your input!

[CharlieH]

My only comment on this is I would not be giving 1 mil.baht for anything on a 20 yr deal in this country.

 

The Govt and regs are quicksand, can and often do change rapidly. Far too unstable. (IMHO)

 

As for the "marriage" base, thats entirely dependent on the wife, anything happens to her or your relationship and thats the end of that.

 

 

[Ohyesuare]

6 minutes ago, wml22 said:

To make sure I understand, that means there are two circumstances for activating the 1-year extension:

 

1) I buy in Jan. 2022. I leave Thailand to visit folks in the U.S. on June 1st and return on July 1st. When I land at the airport, I am given a 1 year extension stamp at the airport (cost: 1,900 baht) and my new expiration is July 2023. Perk of this activation method, of entry into Thailand, is that I don't have to go to the immigration office.

 

2) That means to not overstay, if I don't travel again, I must go to immigration in June 2023 and manually apply at immigration for the 1 year extension (cost: 1,900 baht) and my new expiration is July 2024.

 

So I'm actually paying 1,900 baht every time that I come into Thailand, but each of those instances extends the visa out +12 months. It means though that if I exit and re-enter Thailand 10 times in one year, I pay 19,000 baht for what is effectively just a 1-year extension, because I'm paying for the extension every time I enter?

Wrong. 1900 is only if you stay here until your 1 year permission to stay is expiring and you don't want to leave the country before it does. If you're never staying more than a full consecutive year in the country, you will not have to pay anything more for the full term of your elite visa.

Edited October 13, 2021 by Ohyesuare

[4MyEgo]

9 minutes ago, DrJack54 said:

Hope this is not dismissive but personally I think you are worrying prematurely.

Also no need to get married.

If you can place 800k in a Thai bank and just leave it, then do annual extensions based on retirement. 

True vaccinations may become required for some jobs but really that's of no concern to you.

Re multiple reentry permit they are 3800baht and unlimited entries.

My vote goes to annual extensions from a non O based on retirement.

Personally I would choose that option even if I was married.

Chill.....

You took the words right out of my mouth, assuming he is over 50.

 

Personally I do the marriage extension, slightly more of a hassle as one has to go to the bank for the statement, pay for that, then the Amphur for an updated marriage certificate and one more stop to the bank the next day to make a withdrawal and update the bank book and return in 30 days to collect the passport, but what I have learned through this pandemic, is that the marriage extension has some weight if out of the country and trying to get back in, as opposed to the Elite and Retirement extensions, if I read correctly of those who couldn't get back in previously.

Edited October 13, 2021 by 4MyEgo

[DavisH]

7 minutes ago, CharlieH said:

My only comment on this is I would not be giving 1 mil.baht for anything on a 20 yr deal in this country.

 

The Givt and regs are quicksand, can and often do change rapidly. Far too unstable. (IMHO)

 

As for the "marriage" base, thats entirely dependent on the wife, anything happens to her or your relationship and thats the end of that.

 

 

And it's 1M baht to avoid the possibility of a Sinovac jab. Which may never happen, as 1) jabs are not likely to be needed over the long term, 2) there are other vaccines available. 

[jackdd]

11 minutes ago, wml22 said:

So I'm actually paying 1,900 baht every time that I come into Thailand, but each of those instances extends the visa out +12 months. It means though that if I exit and re-enter Thailand 10 times in one year, I pay 19,000 baht for what is effectively just a 1-year extension, because I'm paying for the extension every time I enter?

If you enter Thailand you don't pay 1900THB, the one year stamp when entering the country is "free". Only the extension at an immigration office costs 1900THB.

[wml22]

5 minutes ago, Ohyesuare said:

Wrong. 1900 is only if you stay here until your 1 year permission to stay is expiring and you don't want to leave the country before it does. If you're never staying more than a full consecutive year in the country, you will not have to pay anything more for the full term of your elite visa.

Oh, OK, so to confirm, this is the correct description of how this works:

 

1) I buy 20 Year Elite visa in Jan. 2022. I have until Jan. 2023 to either (a) leave Thailand and come back in (zero cost or fees, and no visit to immigration required), or (b) go to immigration office and pay 1,900 for an extension to Jan. 2024.

 

In the case of (a), before Covid and quarantines were going on, could I hypothetically have gone over the land border to Vientiane, Laos for a day shopping trip, and then come back into Thailand over the land border that same evening, and thereby activated a new entry on the Elite Visa - using this method once per year, every year, I would have been able to never pay another baht and stay here for 20 years after paying the 1 million?

[wml22]

8 minutes ago, DavisH said:

And it's 1M baht to avoid the possibility of a Sinovac jab. Which may never happen, as 1) jabs are not likely to be needed over the long term, 2) there are other vaccines available. 

Per my above post, if in the future land border crossings into Laos and returns from there are possible again, and if those land border crossings are counted as new entries the same as with airplane travel, then it's not really 1M vs. zero. It's a multi-entry visa that costs 0 per year instead of 3,800 per year, and it's also a benefit of having someone do the 90 day reports for me instead of hassling with it myself, and it's also not having the 400,000 baht frozen but instead available for my use.

 

In that sense, it seems more like I should be comparing the cost of the 600,000 baht difference against the cost of paying 3,800 every year for 20 years.

 

The main argument against IMO is the risk that they'll just cancel the Elite Visa and steal the value of the unused portion, or otherwise change the terms in a way that makes it become worthless or a bad deal.

 

EDIT: I want to add, I realize that using a land border crossing at Vientiane would be more expensive when factoring in gas to drive there etc. but was using that as an example for sake of argument. Realistically, it's more likely I'd be getting the free entry 1 year stamp by going back to the U.S. to visit parents and friends once per year.

Edited October 13, 2021 by wml22

[sirineou]

You put your money in the bank, and you do your yearly extensions, when you decide Thailand is no longer for you, you take your money and leave, 

You put your money in a 20 year Elite visa, and five years down the line you decide Thailand is not for you, and it's by by money. 

 

[wml22]

5 minutes ago, sirineou said:

You put your money in the bank, and you do your yearly extensions, when you decide Thailand is no longer for you, you take your money and leave, 

You put your money in a 20 year Elite visa, and five years down the line you decide Thailand is not for you, and it's by by money. 

 

I've lived in Thailand twice before, in the early 2010s and also about three years ago, so I know pretty well what I'm getting myself into in terms of the culture and the environment. But I concede your point on the principle of uncertainty about how Thailand could keep changing, e.g. what if Thailand becomes more of a Chinese vassal state and gets worse than anyone expected it could after only 10 years from now, or what if a new cold war between the U.S. and China endangers my visa status in Thailand five years from now. 

Edited October 13, 2021 by wml22

[Peterw42]

OP, given that you have come up with 127 "what if" scenarios, that may or may not ever happen. Maybe your best approach would be a one year extension that you qualify for. That way you are not invested or committed beyond the next 12 months. You can reassess your position each year if the situation changes. If changes come about, they wont usually apply until next years visa/extension.

Otherwise, why worry or plan for things that may not ever happen ?

 

 

[wprime]

33 minutes ago, wml22 said:

When you pay 1,900 to extend an elite visa each year, is it an unlimited multi-entry extension (e.g. I'm free to go back to the U.S. and come back into Thailand every month if I want, theoretically)? Because I think for the marriage visa extension to be multi-entry, it's 3,800 or 5,000 baht or something like that and maybe it's not unlimited exits and entries?

 

With the elite visa being 1 year, extended every year, what are you actually purchasing when you buy the 20 year package? Are you purchasing a guarantee that they will grant 19 annual extensions without having to pay any additional fees aside from the 1,900 baht?

 

Sorry I meant 1 year stay permissible. The visa itself is 5 years, but only allows for 1 year stay at a time. This 1 year stay can be extended unconditionally up until the visa expires for the 1900 baht each time. If you leave the country, the 1 year starts counting again so you only need to pay the 1900 baht if you stay continuously for 1 year. You need to get a new visa stamp after 5 years. I'm not sure if you need to leave the country for that but I doubt it (I'm only on the 5 year program).

[wml22]

1 minute ago, Peterw42 said:

OP, given that you have come up with 127 "what if" scenarios, that may or may not ever happen. Maybe your best approach would be a one year extension that you qualify for. That way you are not invested or committed beyond the next 12 months. You can reassess your position each year if the situation changes. If changes come about, they wont usually apply until next years visa/extension.

Otherwise, why worry or plan for things that may not ever happen ?

 

 

I think that honestly, I hate going to immigration so much and don't want to be hassled with the 90 day reports, that I'm trying to find a way to justify splurging on the Elite Visa, even though it may be more reckless than a marriage visa due to the risk of the government changing the terms or reneging on the guarantees.

[wml22]

2 minutes ago, wprime said:

 

Sorry I meant 1 year stay permissible. The visa itself is 5 years, but only allows for 1 year stay at a time. This 1 year stay can be extended unconditionally up until the visa expires for the 1900 baht each time. If you leave the country, the 1 year starts counting again so you only need to pay the 1900 baht if you stay continuously for 1 year. You need to get a new visa stamp after 5 years. I'm not sure if you need to leave the country for that but I doubt it (I'm only on the 5 year program).

Cool, thanks for sharing your knowledge about the process. For the 90 day reports being done by a staff office in Bangkok, instead of having to do them yourself, do you still have to communicate with the staff office every 90 days to confirm that your residence hasn't changed? (And I assume that legally, you're still supposed to also get TM30 forms filed for "registration of alien resident" every time you stay overnight anywhere, although pragmatically this seems unenforceable?) Or is the arrangement with the staff office more hands-off, like you don't have to communicate with them or be involved in the 90 day reporting process at all unless you're notifying them that you've changed residences (e.g. you're now on vacation in Phuket, or you're now out of the country, or you sold your condo and moved to a new condo - otherwise, you never have to communicate with them and the reporting process just happens automatically from your perspective)?

[howerde]

1 hour ago, jackdd said:

With the elite visa you have to apply for an extension every year at immigration and pay 1900, just as if you applied for a marriage extension. You just don't need any money seasoned and fewer documents.

You only need to go to immigration and pay the 1900 baht at immigration if you have not left Thailand during the year, 

[wprime]

3 minutes ago, wml22 said:

Cool, thanks for sharing your knowledge about the process. For the 90 day reports being done by a staff office in Bangkok, instead of having to do them yourself, do you still have to communicate with the staff office every 90 days to confirm that your residence hasn't changed? (And I assume that legally, you're still supposed to also get TM30 forms filed for "registration of alien resident" every time you stay overnight anywhere, although pragmatically this seems unenforceable?) Or is the arrangement with the staff office more hands-off, like you don't have to communicate with them or be involved in the 90 day reporting process at all unless you're notifying them that you've changed residences (e.g. you're now on vacation in Phuket, or you're now out of the country, or you sold your condo and moved to a new condo - otherwise, you never have to communicate with them and the reporting process just happens automatically from your perspective)?

 

It's very hands-on. You need to send the passport to them and there's a fee if you're not based on Bangkok. Personally I find doing it myself easier.

[wml22]

10 minutes ago, wprime said:

 

It's very hands-on. You need to send the passport to them and there's a fee if you're not based on Bangkok. Personally I find doing it myself easier.

That's kind of hilarious that you find it easier to do yourself. So it's more of a selling point for the marketing angle than a real benefit maybe.

[86Tiger]

33 minutes ago, sirineou said:

You put your money in the bank, and you do your yearly extensions, when you decide Thailand is no longer for you, you take your money and leave, 

You put your money in a 20 year Elite visa, and five years down the line you decide Thailand is not for you, and it's by by money. 

 

Pretty much sums it up.

 

As others have stated, nothing should be trusted in Thailand.