Phuket immigration very strict on retirement extension requirements

[xylophone]

Make sure all of your retirement extension paperwork is in "full working order" as the saying goes, and the reason I'm posting this is because of what has happened to a friend of mine here, and also on advice from my bank manager.

 

This friend went to renew his retirement extension and has had 900k baht in the bank, untouched, for a few years now, and also spends over a million baht per annum here.

 

However when the I/O checked out his paperwork he refused to issue the retirement extension, saying that my friend had to bring in 65k on a monthly basis to qualify and he hadn't done that, however he brought in 120k every two months for his living expenses, but he was refused.

 

The puzzling thing is that every year he has sailed through using the same modus operandi, and we were trying to work out why he had been refused this time.

 

The only thing we could think of was that his 900k was in a deposit account (as it always had been in the past without a problem) so they were discarding this as not relevant and as he didn't bring in a regular 65k EVERY MONTH, and as I said, he was refused the retirement extension.

 

Mine is due any day, so I went to my bank manager who usually does all the paperwork for me and he said that he would copy all my bank book pages from the past year, which he had never done in the past, mainly because Phuket immigration were being very strict about requiring it and he said he had several farangs coming back to him wanting exactly the same thing because Phuket immigration were demanding it, whereas in the past 6 months past pages had sufficed.

 

I also gave him my book with 800k in it to copy and he said he would copy it for the full year, just to be on the safe side.

 

My friend was in a quandary because it's not as if he could easily go back to his own country and come back in again and start afresh with the process of getting a new retirement extension, given the Covid restrictions etc, so he used a local agent who wanted a copy of his bank book with the 900k in it and a total of 22,000 baht to process everything, which they did and he got it back on the same day.

 

As I mentioned earlier, my extension is due on Monday and I have tried to comply with everything that I possibly can on their instruction list, but as he said, this particular I/O was very grumpy and although he had accepted all of my friends paperwork in the past, this time it wasn't good enough, so I hope I don't get this particular I/O.

 

If I do and there is something wrong, then at least I know I can use an agent, and for what it's worth, it may well be easier to bypass all of this hassle and stress by just letting an agent handle it for me, and then I can spend my 800k and not have to worry about bringing funds in from my home country to live on for a while.

 

So if you're going for your retirement extension, make sure that you have everything in good "working order"!

[worgeordie]

21 minutes ago, xylophone said:

so he used a local agent who wanted a copy of his bank book with the 900k in it and a total of 22,000 baht to process everything,

Maybe that is the reason why.....I am sure the agent does not get

to keep the 22 K Baht all to himself.

regards Worgeordie

[ezzra]

Going to the immigration is more kike a crep-shoot game, sometimes you win and everything goes well and at times your luck runs out and you have to deal with the crazy of the day sitting there  and looking at you as if you're some sort of criminal trying to circumvent the system...

[damascase]

This is not being ‘very strict’, it’s a totally wrong application of the law.

[KannikaP]

55 minutes ago, xylophone said:

I also gave him my book with 800k in it to copy and he said he would copy it for the full year, just to be on the safe side.

Would a bank account with the 800k in it not have any transactions to show in the bank book?

[WhiteBuffaloATM]

seriously ? leave, return next day, see another IO, one who follows laws.

[The Hammer2021]

An agent ensures everything is in good order.

[WhiteBuffaloATM]

no point in agent unless you are avoiding the financials……

[skatewash]

The requirements for getting a retirement extension of stay at Phuket Immigration are very strictly enforced.  So I make my life easier by finding out what the requirements are and following them strictly.  I find it very helpful to use the website set up by the Phuket Immigration Volunteers that contains very good information about what is required in order to get all sorts of extensions of stay including the retirement extension.

http://piv-phuket.com/long-stay-extensions/retirement/

 

For years Phuket Immigration has required two (2) documents from your Thai bank.  One is the standard letter that shows you are the owner of a bank account, details of the account, and the balance on the date the letter is written.  The second is a signed/stamped bank account statement for twelve (12) months.  I forget how much these two documents cost but is in the range of 200-300 baht depending on the Thai bank involved.  Note that some banks (notably, Bangkok Bank) cannot produce a 12-month bank statement on the spot but have to send the request to Bangkok Bank headquarters and it can take a week to actually receive that 12-month bank statement due to this.  So knowing this I try to apply for my retirement extension 45 days before my permission to stay expires.  Why wouldn't you want to do this earlier rather than later?  You have time on your side if there are any problems.

These are the requirements (as can be confirmed by reading the earlier link).  However, I usually try to understand the reason these are the requirements.  So what follows is my understanding of why we are asked to do what we are asked to do when proving that we have 800,000 baht in a Thai bank account for 12 months. 

The standard bank letter establishes that the bank account exists, is in our name only, and that we are the owner of it.  The 12-month bank statement establishes that we have complied with the minimum balance requirements.  The minimum balance requirement for a banked lump sum method are as follows:

• At least 800k in the bank account for two (2) months prior to application for extension
• At least 800k in the bank account for three (3) months after application for extension
• At least 400k in the bank account for the rest of the year.

So, the 12-month bank statement is the means by which an immigration officer can determine if you followed these requirements.  But why is a bank signed/stamped bank statement required rather than just copies of pages in your bank account passbook?  I mean, aren't they the same?  Actually they are only the same if you have updated your bank passbook on a regular basis.  If you haven't then it is possible to get Combined Transactions in your passbook.  Combined transactions include numerous transactions that occurred without your passbook being updated.  The Combined transaction entry shows the net effect of all those undocumented transactions on your bank balance.  It is impossible to determine from this entry whether your bank balance dipped below the minimum balance requirements.  That is why they insist on a 12-month bank statement. 

Even then, they often want to see your bank passbook.  Sometimes, often actually, they will want to see signed copies of your passbook covering the last 12 months.  Why is this?  When you are trying to assess the validity of evidence you look at multiple sources for that evidence.  The standard bank letter says the balance on the date the letter was issued was such and such.  Does the bank statement say the same thing?  Does the bank passbook say the same thing?  The bank statement says that the balance never dipped below the minimum balances.  Does the bank book confirm that? 

I look at this process as getting the immigration officer to a place where he or she has a warm and fuzzy feeling that the evidence you present is valid.  Could it all be faked?  Of course.  There is nothing that can't be faked (including passports and true love).  But how difficult, how much work is it, to fake three separate things:  signed/stamped bank letter, signed/stamped bank statement, bank passbook? 

So, what happened to your friend?  I suspect he didn't bother to check the requirements for the retirement extension at the Phuket Immigration Volunteer's site.  I suspect he didn't notice that a 12-month bank statement is a requirement for Phuket Immigration retirement extensions (and has been for at least a few years).  I suspect that had he gone back to his Thai bank and obtained the 12-month bank statement he was supposed to have all along (it's one of the requirements) he might have gotten his extension approved.

You do NOT have to bring money into Thailand according to the rules for the monthly deposit method (65,000 baht/month every month), IF you are doing the lump-sum banked money method (800,000 baht in the account, subject to minimum balance requirements).  He would have known that if he had familiarized himself with the requirements.  Did he get a garbled, confusing, explanation from the immigration officers as to why he was being refused an extension?  Probably.  That's why your understanding of the process needs to be as good as an immigration officer, so you can comprehend what in the world they are trying to tell you.  So you can understand what the issues are, what their concerns are.

Also, it needs to be said that immigration officers can ask you any question they want to inform their assessment of whether you are going to get a retirement extension or not.  For example if your bank balances meet all the minimum balance requirements it's still in their investigative purview to ask questions like what are you living on?  Where does it come from?  Do you work in Thailand?  Sometimes they will ask to see a bank account that you are not using to meet the requirement for the extension to see what you are living on.  For example, my account for immigration purpose shows very little activity.  The money just sits there, earning interest every month.  I rarely put money in, I rarely take money out.  If that's all I show to the immigration officer it could raise the question about what I am living on.  For that, I have another account that shows money being transferred in on an irregular basis with international labeling.  Money being withdrawn on an irregular basis to pay my day to day expenses.  Money being debited by my internet provider, electricity provider, etc.  I usually will make copies of that bank passbook in case they want to see that.

To paraphrase Jerry McGuire, you need to help the immigration officers help you.  It's in your interest.  The easier their job is the easier it is for me to get what I want, a retirement extension.

Or you can pay 22,000 baht to an agent and they can do what you couldn't do.  The agent likes this and the immigration officers like this as they get part of that 22,000 baht.  It's a win-win situation.  Except I wouldn't be happy paying 22,000 for something that I know should cost exactly 1,900.  But it's Thailand, so up to you. ????

[KarenBravo]

Funny I should be reading this right now as I'm just off to take 100Bt from my Savings account and then have the transaction printed out by the machine into my passbook.

I do this every month on, or around the 15th since my last extension.

This is what I did before the previous extension. Never had a problem with immigration. The bank supplied one document saying that I have always had more than 800k and the other is a three month statement.

I'm on their computer system and have always extended due to retirement. Maybe your mate's bank account doesn't have any entries. Your mate can't show that he didn't go under the required 400k during the previous year.

I do this printing once a month at a request by an I/O.

 

Don't know why your mate had that experience as I only have good words for Phuket immigration. 

 

I see that skatewash has come to the same conclusion as me (I was still typing as he posted).

 

 

[KhunBENQ]

53 minutes ago, KannikaP said:

Would a bank account with the 800k in it not have any transactions to show in the bank book?

Not sure whether it is related:

a mate recently was at Khon Kaen immigration.

1) He had his savings account book (K-Bank) and letter way more than 800k.

The account shows no movement since years (except some minor interest).

2) The mate receives his monthly pension to another account at Bangkok Bank.

 

He only showed documents for 1).

Immigration officer asks "what are you living on"?

He had nothing to show but came through with a reminder for next year.

I bet the officer is always entitled to ask the question.

I told mate: always have all books with you.

Preferably with international transfers shown.

 

 

[KhunBENQ]

36 minutes ago, skatewash said:

it's still in their investigative purview to ask questions like what are you living on?  Where does it come from?  Do you work in Thailand?  Sometimes they will ask to see a bank account that you are not using to meet the requirement for the extension to see what you are living on.

Sorry, seen after my post and in line with the story I was told.

[WhiteBuffaloATM]

LOS Immigration Objectives ( Let’s Be Clear & “Be Cool”) in order are : 

Profit- Humiliation - Control. The latter being the sole legit activity here.

Let’s Comply as Necessary.

Let’s Not Write about it as if it’s Normal or Useful or Respected….please.

 

 

[JetsetBkk]

1 minute ago, WhiteBuffaloATM said:

LOS Immigration Objectives ( Let’s Be Clear & “Be Cool”) in order are : 

Profit- Humiliation - Control. The latter being the sole legit activity here.

Let’s Comply as Necessary.

Let’s Not Write about it as if it’s Normal or Useful or Respected….please.

I bet you have a great time at Immigration with that attitude.

[WhiteBuffaloATM]

attitude of “ cool and compliant “ ? never had any Immi. problems.

just no need to normalize, glorify and grovel to the process….

[xylophone]

1 hour ago, skatewash said:

So, what happened to your friend?  I suspect he didn't bother to check the requirements for the retirement extension at the Phuket Immigration Volunteer's site.  I suspect he didn't notice that a 12-month bank statement is a requirement for Phuket Immigration retirement extensions (and has been for at least a few years).  I suspect that had he gone back to his Thai bank and obtained the 12-month bank statement he was supposed to have all along (it's one of the requirements) he might have gotten his extension approved.

My friend did this application in just the same way, with just the same paperwork and documents as he has done for the previous 10 years he has been living here, no difference, no change, no additions and no subtractions.

 

The bank supplied him with the necessary copies and paperwork, just the same as they have done for the past 10 years, so nothing changed.

 

The only thing I can think of is that his 900k is in an interest-bearing account, and whereas before it was always accepted, this time it was refused, and I believe that is the crux of the matter.

 

On the Phuket volunteers website it does say that, "normal savings accounts are preferred" (with regards to the 800k) and that's the only thing that I can think of that would count against him, but again as I said, he has had his 900k in this very same account for years and nothing has been said about it.

 

I note the word, "PREFERRED", so it doesn't strictly say it is mandatory, but who knows with those jokers.

[JetsetBkk]

12 minutes ago, WhiteBuffaloATM said:

attitude of “ cool and compliant “ ? never had any Immi. problems.

just no need to normalize, glorify and grovel to the process….

My way of doing it is to copy every set of papers I give to Immigration each year, BEFORE I go. I have copies going back to 2008.

I have 18 pieces of paper in my 2020 file.

Each year I produce the same papers, updated, for Immigration.

Some of them are marked "Don't need next year" or "Don't present at Immigration but keep in brief case", e.g. the picture of me standing in front of my house, or my health insurance certificate.

 

I got caught out last year by not having a full years' bank statement from the bank. Won't happen this year!

 

[xylophone]

2 hours ago, KannikaP said:

Would a bank account with the 800k in it not have any transactions to show in the bank book?

It won't have any "transactions" in the bank book, because the money stays where it is, however it does earn a minuscule amount of interest, so every so often I update the book in the ATM system.

 

My 800k is in the account which my bank manager suggested and was accepted by immigration last year, and although it earns a minuscule amount of interest, it is an account which is readily accessible, which I believe the I/O's are looking for.

 

However after my friend's strange encounter, I am quite prepared to get knocked back and would have absolutely no problem in using an agent and paying the 22k baht (of which the agent, in front of my friend, gave 20k to the I/O, and the agent had the rest) because I could then spend the 800k which has been laying just about dormant, and it would save me bringing funds over from NZ for quite a while.

[WhiteBuffaloATM]

JB: yes, best to be organized for Immi / DLT / Muni. have yellow ( non- house) and pink ( house) thin folders with clear plastic wallets to avoid labels. i keep only what I need next time. I sidestep retirement financials / humiliation by using agent. object to it in principle (only I control my money) and simply refuse to comply with the detail.

[JetsetBkk]

 

9 minutes ago, xylophone said:

The only thing I can think of is that his 900k is in an interest-bearing account, and whereas before it was always accepted, this time it was refused, and I believe that is the crux of the matter.

 

On the Phuket volunteers website it does say that, "normal savings accounts are preferred" (with regards to the 800k) and that's the only thing that I can think of that would count against him, but again as I said, he has had his 900k in this very same account for years and nothing has been said about it.

Hmm, my SCB account is interest bearing. I presented a 3 month statement which showed only 2 months' worth of entries, and was rejected earlier this year.

The next day I got a 12 months statement which had about 10 months' worth of entries. That was OK.  Maybe I should revert to showing my "daily bank" which is Krung Thai. That bank book has scores of entries - for every time I use the ATM!

 

[JetsetBkk]

6 minutes ago, WhiteBuffaloATM said:

JB: yes, best to be organized for Immi / DLT / Muni. have yellow ( non- house) and pink ( house) thin folders with clear plastic wallets to avoid labels. i keep only what I need next time. I sidestep retirement financials / humiliation by using agent. object to it in principle (only I control my money) and simply refuse to comply with the detail.

I'll see how it goes in 6 months' time. I'm quite happy to grovel a little bit, even though I am usually a "but it's the principle of the thing" sort of guy. ????

If there are more reports of Immi not liking interest bearing deposit accounts, then next year I'll probably get two bank statements and two bank letters for both my "Deposit account" at SCB and my "Daily account" at Krung Thai.

 

I suppose I could also get statements for my Krungsri deposit account and my Kasikorn shopping card account. But now I'm just showing off.

[skatewash]

8 minutes ago, xylophone said:

It won't have any "transactions" in the bank book, because the money stays where it is, however it does earn a minuscule amount of interest, so every so often I update the book in the ATM system.

 

My 800k is in the account which my bank manager suggested and was accepted by immigration last year, and although it earns a minuscule amount of interest, it is an account which is readily accessible, which I believe the I/O's are looking for.

 

However after my friend's strange encounter, I am quite prepared to get knocked back and would have absolutely no problem in using an agent and paying the 22k baht (of which the agent, in front of my friend, gave 20k to the I/O, and the agent had the rest) because I could then spend the 800k which has been laying just about dormant, and it would save me bringing funds over from NZ for quite a while.

I'm having trouble understanding how one can read this from the Phuket Immigration Volunteer's site and not think that you need to provide:

1) a signed and stamped standard bank letter

2) a signed and stamped 12-month bank statement

3) signed copies of the last 12 months of transactions from your passbook
 

Quote

Bank balance option:
Minimum of 800.000 Baht in Thai bank account (in your own name) for at least 2 months before the application date.
After the application date a minimum of 800.000 Baht in Thai bank account (in your own name) for at least 3 months and a minimum of 400.000 Baht for the remainder of the year until your next application date is required. (in conjunction with the 800.000 Baht for 2 months before the application date)
Please be aware that normal saving accounts are preferred. A fixed account can only be used if the money is available on a daily bases.
Signed and stamped bank letter AND Signed and stamped bank statement showing the required money and duration before application date. (Max 7 days old)
Copy updated Thai bank book name page and last 12 months transactions. (Update the bank book on the day of the application)
Please make sure that all papers have the same balance mentioned

from http://piv-phuket.com/long-stay-extensions/retirement/ (emphasis added)

As far as which accounts can be used:

 

Any savings account can be used (to include fixed term accounts) IF two conditions are true:

 

1) the principle cannot be subject to market fluctuation, you put in 800,000 baht, if you do nothing, a year later the 800,000 baht is still there.
2) you must be able to withdraw the money immediately at a moment's notice without any penalty except for the possible loss of interest earned.

In my experience, immigration officers greatly prefer fixed term deposit accounts where there is no activity in the account at all (other than interest being earned).  The reason is that these types of accounts can be extremely easy to verify.  Contrast this with a regular savings account that has lots of deposits and lots of withdrawals.  The immigration officer has to look through all those transactions and see whether the balance dropped below any of the minimum balance requirements that are in effect for the year (2 months before application and 3 months after application has to be greater than or equal to 800k, other months in the year has to be greater than or equal to 400k) .  If you were an immigration officer which would you rather check?  A fixed deposit account with no activity, or a savings account with pages of transactions?

If you use an account with very little activity over the year, then expect to get asked how you are living in Thailand.  This question is easily answered by showing the passbook for an account that you use for your day-to-day living expenses. 

 

[WhiteBuffaloATM]

JB: well you’re kind of creating / worshipping at the Immi “ shrine” mate ! and kind of proving my point of (limited) compliance in that this financials s..t just gets worse so best avoided at the outset…..

[JetsetBkk]

5 minutes ago, skatewash said:

Any savings account can be used (to include fixed term accounts) IF two conditions are true:

 

1) the principle cannot be subject to market fluctuation, you put in 800,000 baht, if you do nothing, a year later the 800,000 baht is still there.
2) you must be able to withdraw the money immediately at a moment's notice without any penalty except for the possible loss of interest earned.

Exactly what I have always believed. ???? 

 

(But I'll still monitor here in case others have a problem!)

 

[JetsetBkk]

4 minutes ago, WhiteBuffaloATM said:

JB: well you’re kind of creating / worshipping at the Immi “ shrine” mate ! and kind of proving my point of (limited) compliance in that this financials s..t just gets worse so best avoided at the outset…..

Well... one day each year, I'm not too bothered. ????

 

[KannikaP]

38 minutes ago, xylophone said:

My 800k is in the account which my bank manager suggested and was accepted by immigration last year, and although it earns a minuscule amount of interest, it is an account which is readily accessible, which I believe the I/O's are looking for.

Mine was in a Foreign Currency Account, which is NOT readily accessible at weekends as would a Fixed Term account as you would have to go into the main bank to withdraw from it. But it was accepted by my IO as the balance was over 800k on that day.

[xylophone]

15 minutes ago, JetsetBkk said:

 

Hmm, my SCB account is interest bearing. I presented a 3 month statement which showed only 2 months' worth of entries, and was rejected earlier this year.

The next day I got a 12 months statement which had about 10 months' worth of entries. That was OK.  Maybe I should revert to showing my "daily bank" which is Krung Thai. That bank book has scores of entries - for every time I use the ATM!

 

On Monday I go to my bank to get a statement for 12 months worth of my everyday banking account, and also a statement for the 12 months during which my 800k has been languishing in its account and will see how that goes.

 

As I said previously I am quite prepared to pay 20k plus to an agent to get round this hassle, because one never knows what's going to happen, and just to show you what I mean, the following has happened to me at immigration: –

 

I had a new passport and some details needed to be entered into it, from the old passport (or something like that, because it was more than 10 years ago) and the I/O tried to charge me 500 baht for doing it, and I queried that and he was most put out.

 

So just to show who was the boss, he asked for every copy of every bank book I'd had since I had been here, so I had to go back home to my home in Patong to get this.

 

When I presented this to him, he then asked for a copy of every page of my passport, even the blank pages, so I had to go outside to the copy shop to get that done, and of course every time I came back in for what ever he wanted, I had to stand in the queue again.

 

Eventually after he has shown who was the boss, everything went ahead WITHOUT the 500 baht cost.

Then just three or four years ago, I was using the 400k in the bank and regular monthly deposits from overseas banks, which totalled more than 900k, and it did mean a little more paperwork and the addition of the deposits to make sure they added up correctly, however after scrutinising all of that paperwork, the I/O looked up at me and said in a gruff tone, "next year put all money in the bank".

 

So as you can imagine, I haven't had the best of runs with these people, even though I barely say anything when I'm there, never argue and always smile, and of course dress smartly.

 

As someone else has suggested, it's a control thing IMO, because we are supposedly the "rich farangs" who have everything, and they are envious and want to show us who is the boss, no matter how much money we have.

 

[xylophone]

18 minutes ago, skatewash said:

I'm having trouble understanding how one can read this from the Phuket Immigration Volunteer's site and not think that you need to provide:

1) a signed and stamped standard bank letter

2) a signed and stamped 12-month bank statement

3) signed copies of the last 12 months of transactions from your passbook
 

And I'm having trouble understanding how you cannot understand what I've written because I, like my friend, follow everything you have written and what is written in the Phuket I/O website.

 

Everything, yes everything that you have rattled on about I do, as does my friend, yet his application was rejected and as I said, I can only suggest that it was because he had a fixed term account with his funds and it.

 

And remember that the website states that savings type of accounts are PREFERRED, so with that ambiguity they are free to interpret it how they wish.

[skatewash]

4 minutes ago, KannikaP said:

Mine was in a Foreign Currency Account, which is NOT readily accessible at weekends as would a Fixed Term account as you would have to go into the main bank to withdraw from it. But it was accepted by my IO as the balance was over 800k on that day.

OK, how about that you can immediately withdraw when your bank is open.  What I'm getting at is that it must be a savings account.  It can be a fixed deposit account that allows for withdrawals.  It can be a foreign currency account that allows for withdrawals.  It can't be a stock, a bond, some sort of insurance/savings product that limits your ability to do a withdrawal, bitcoins.  Any of those just mentioned in the last sentence either are subject to market fluctuation or limit the depositors ability to immediately withdraw money from the account.  As a practical matter if you're getting above 2% APR interest you need to question if there are any restrictions on your ability to access that money or whether the money in that account is subject to market fluctuation.

[Chris.B]

He should have made a small deposit into the account on the day of his application.