Registering a new house in a Foreigner's name.

[SimpleMan555]

I am almost finished building a small house on land that I have a registered lifetime Usufruct with my name entered by the Land Department on the Chanote. 

 

The land currently has no address, and I understand it is legal to seperate the house from the land, thus making me the legal owner of the house but not the owner of the land

 

Prior to proceeding with the above, I would like to hear from others that have finished this process, and hear about your experience.

 

I will use an attorney for the process, but desire a bit of background information first.

I understand each Amphur is different, but any direct knowledge will be helpful

 

Please do not reply unless you have direct knowledge of this process.

 

Thank you

Edited October 25, 2021 by SimpleMan555

[RafPinto]

Should have asked those questions before starting the building.

[SimpleMan555]

2 minutes ago, RafPinto said:

Should have asked those questions before starting the building.

A useless comment, as the Usufruct gives me 100% control of the property. and the above process will be for my own purposes and not required.

 

If you have nothing constructive to say, best to ignore the OP and move on...

[WhiteBuffaloATM]

best stay with your lawyer.many misunderstandings and missing data in OP.

[kuzie57]

Just out of curiosity if you have an "usufruct" why do you want to register the house?

[crazykopite]

Do I understand then with life time if you were to die tomorrow then the agreement you made dies with you and cannot be left to a family member. I built property but by way of a company I built two houses one that I live in and the other for rental income on completion I received two blue books as each property has its own separate address I then got a yellow book and a pink ID card issued by the tessaban with my name on it in the house that I live in as I was over a certain age the issuing officer told me that the book and card were for life , my friend who has now returned back home had what you have his was for 30 + 30 years he also had a yellow book in his name as suggested by another reader if as you say you are using a lawyer maybe it’s better to see what advice he offers . One thing you also need to do is make out a Thai will and deposit a copy at your local government office . It should be noted both property blue books are in the Thai company name my two grandchildren inherit the company on my death 

Edited October 27, 2021 by crazykopite

[crazykopite]

10 minutes ago, kuzie57 said:

Just out of curiosity if you have an "usufruct" why do you want to register the house?

He needs to register the new house to get an address also there is the requirement to pay yearly land and property taxes every April 

[Tony125]

On 10/25/2021 at 3:23 PM, SimpleMan555 said:

A useless comment, as the Usufruct gives me 100% control of the property. and the above process will be for my own purposes and not required.

 

If you have nothing constructive to say, best to ignore the OP and move on...

In case of diviorce the usufruct is easily cancelled by the court including your right to live there for life.

 

https://www.thailandlawonline.com/59-usufruct-in-thailand/4-can-my-thai-wife-cancel-my-usufruct

[bwanajohn]

I have a property on a 30 year lease...after building the house we discussed whether to have the house registered separately from the land our lawyer with us as the owner (not as part of the property on a 30 yr lease .We were told yes can be done but complicates things when you want to sell.

    Also as we built a second smaller house for friends to stay in when visiting long term. We discussed renting this out with our lawyer. We were told its technically illegal as most foreigners do not have a visa etc that allows them to earn income in Thailand. If you have a thai spouse or adult child with Thai citizenship the rent can go through them. This also includes airbnb . I know many foriegners do it and we did as well with a condo some years ago. Its one of the issues I always see when the Thai gov.t talks about getting quality tourists to invest in property etc. Wealthy people didn't get rich by investing capital in instruments that they cannot realize a return on. Super yachts when not being used by the owners are often chartered . So if I buy a nice villa in Phuket and decide not to visit for a couple years it would be nice to be able to lease it to someone to off set the operating costs with out violating Thai law.

   I would be interested in how others deal with this conumdrum.

 

[andre47]

6 minutes ago, bwanajohn said:

We discussed renting this out with our lawyer. We were told its technically illegal as most foreigners do not have a visa etc that allows them to earn income in Thailand.

 

Foreigners can earn income in Thailand (rent, interest etc.), but they need a work permit if they want work in Thailand. Foreigners also can get a tax id in Thailand without having a work permit.

[bwanajohn]

14 minutes ago, andre47 said:

Foreigners can earn income in Thailand (rent, interest etc.), but they need a work permit if they want work in Thailand. Foreigners also can get a tax id in Thailand without having a work permit.

Thanks for the response. I believe it still falls into a grey area unless the rental is handled by a thai registered property management company or similar. and you as a non work permitted  foreigner are not involved in the marketing management etc of the property but is an entirely passive income stream . would that be true?

Im very curious about this as after almost 40 years here my wife and I are thinking of leaving as now we are retired from our import export business we are just bored and struggling figure out away keep busy and get some return on investments here. For instance if we had four rental properties could we supervise the maintenance ,advertise the rental .negotiate with the perspective tenants.

[bradiston]

My daughter's Thai and owns the chanote on land on which we built a house, with my name on the building permit. So technically I own the house. But try telling that to a Thai and they'll just laugh and walk away, "may chay, may chay". So it was with with immigration. They simply wouldn't accept that I owned it and therefore could register it as my address. They tried to get me to ring my daughter in London at 3.30am. Answer... I moved to Pattaya to get away from these morons.

 

I also eventually got a usufruct agreement with my daughter. It doesn't make a blind piece of difference to the IOs. They're not interested in that kind of technicality. But, it did get me out being accused of trespass by my nasty neighbour, whose land we have to cross to get to our property.

[LukKrueng]

On 10/25/2021 at 3:11 PM, SimpleMan555 said:

The land currently has no address, and I understand it is legal to seperate the house from the land, thus making me the legal owner of the house but not the owner of the land

 

AFAIK the only time a house has a separate chanot than the land it's built on is in village developments (when a building company buys a big piece of land and builds the whole village).

Other than that there's no such thing as a house ownership without the land. 

The blue/ yellow books only serve as an address registration for the people registered in the book, and does not indicate ownership. 

As Usufruct is non transferable and dies with it's owner anyway, how would you be able to sell the house or will it to anyone after your death? 

The name on the building permit also means nothing in regards to house ownership. 

 

[scorecard]

On 10/25/2021 at 7:23 PM, SimpleMan555 said:

A useless comment, as the Usufruct gives me 100% control of the property. and the above process will be for my own purposes and not required.

 

If you have nothing constructive to say, best to ignore the OP and move on...

Yes sir!

[sead]

Please understand. That it is enough that the owner of land transfers the land in another name and your usufruct is invalid........

[khunPer]

On 10/25/2021 at 10:11 AM, SimpleMan555 said:

The land currently has no address, and I understand it is legal to seperate the house from the land, thus making me the legal owner of the house but not the owner of the land

 

Prior to proceeding with the above, I would like to hear from others that have finished this process, and hear about your experience.

Yes you can be owner of a house that is either new build, or already earlier separated from the land under the house.

 

To be owner of the house that you are building, you'll need...

• a superficies, or similar, permission from the land owner to build a construction/house of the land
• all architect drawings made with your name as house owner
• a building permission from the tessa ban-office in your name
• all building constructor contracts issued in your name
• all money transfers for construction made from your account, and/or receipt for payments carrying your name

The above documents are your proof of house ownership.

 

When the house is 80 percent or more completed you can apply for a house number and a blue house book at the tessa ban-office, same office that issued your permission to build the house. You will be registered as house master - which is not proof of ownership, nor is the blue house book - which means that only you can approve Thai names to be added to the blue house book.

 

When registered at the tessa ban-office you will be the person receiving the property tax bill, at the revenue office you can be exempted from property tax for the first 10 million baht value of the house, if the house is used as home, which requires a confirmation letter from the tessa ban-office.

 

If you one day sell the house, it can be registered separate from the land for a new owner; however selling the house will be dependent of whatever agreement there is for using the land, a usufruct is to my knowledge not transferable, so only the above documents have meaning for you as proof of ownership.

 

For your info, I'm owner of my house as per above documentation...????

 

[khunPer]

17 hours ago, sead said:

Please understand. That it is enough that the owner of land transfers the land in another name and your usufruct is invalid........

No, a usufruct declared as servitude is valid even if the land is sold or transferred.

[khunPer]

On 10/25/2021 at 10:23 AM, SimpleMan555 said:

A useless comment, as the Usufruct gives me 100% control of the property. and the above process will be for my own purposes and not required.

 

If you have nothing constructive to say, best to ignore the OP and move on...

A usufruct gives you the right to "harvest the fruits of the land" - it originates from ancient Roman law - and can in Thailand last for up to 30 years, or your lifetime, depending of what is agreed.

 

Quote

Usufruct is a limited real right found in civil-law and mixed jurisdictions that unites the two property interests of usus and fructus: Usus is the right to use or enjoy a thing possessed, directly and without altering it. Wikipedia

You are not allowed to build anything on that land, or make any constructions, or demolish any constructions, without approval from the land owner, preferably a written permissen; for building a house you shall preferably have a superficies permission/servitude...????

[sead]

4 hours ago, khunPer said:

No, a usufruct declared as servitude is valid even if the land is sold or transferred.

That agreement is between the current owner of the land and you. When the landowner  sell the land the usufruct is not valid. But what do i know.. You guys just go and make your usufructs.

[khunPer]

2 hours ago, sead said:

That agreement is between the current owner of the land and you. When the landowner  sell the land the usufruct is not valid. But what do i know.. You guys just go and make your usufructs.

No, usufruct is a real right...

Quote

• The usufruct does not prevent sale of the property by the owner, but sale of the property does not terminate the usufruct nor the rights of the usufructuary. Usufruct is not a contract right but a real (property) right and as a real right usufruct is a burden on the property itself (any new owner automatically takes the property subject to/ including the right right of usufruct);

Source and read more HERE.

[sead]

On 10/28/2021 at 5:49 PM, khunPer said:

No, usufruct is a real right...

Source and read more HERE.

Very nice. But now this is Thailand. When land is sold and you don't want to move the new owner will make a pigfarm and dump thrash 1m from your house. I know how it works here. Now i would like to hear a statement from anyone that have succeded into keeping his agreement after land was sold. Anyone?

[khunPer]

5 hours ago, sead said:

Very nice. But now this is Thailand. When land is sold and you don't want to move the new owner will make a pigfarm and dump thrash 1m from your house. I know how it works here. Now i would like to hear a statement from anyone that have succeded into keeping his agreement after land was sold. Anyone?

The owner - and his pigs - cannot "harvest the fruits of the land" as this right has been servitude to you; i.e. no fruits to eat, no <deleted> from pigs...????

[SimpleMan555]

On 10/27/2021 at 3:01 PM, kuzie57 said:

Just out of curiosity if you have an "usufruct" why do you want to register the house?

It will further secure the property  and help in obtaining a Yellow Book, which locally has become increazingly difficult. 

 

It further establishes, that the land are truly seperate, will keep the wolves at bay in the event of the current owners death. Usufructs are good, but given TIT another layer of protection iz good

[SimpleMan555]

On 10/27/2021 at 3:20 PM, Tony125 said:

In case of diviorce the usufruct is easily cancelled by the court including your right to live there for life.

 

https://www.thailandlawonline.com/59-usufruct-in-thailand/4-can-my-thai-wife-cancel-my-usufruct

Only when the property was purchased after the marriage. I also understand, it is not a simple matter to cancel and would mozt likely involve the court.

[SimpleMan555]

On 10/28/2021 at 3:25 PM, khunPer said:

A usufruct gives you the right to "harvest the fruits of the land" - it originates from ancient Roman law - and can in Thailand last for up to 30 years, or your lifetime, depending of what is agreed.

 

You are not allowed to build anything on that land, or make any constructions, or demolish any constructions, without approval from the land owner, preferably a written permissen; for building a house you shall preferably have a superficies permission/servitude...????

The Usufruct is writfen to allow me to improve or change the land without any further permission. The only stipulation being I return the land to its original condition

[SimpleMan555]

On 10/28/2021 at 3:15 PM, khunPer said:

• a superficies, or similar, permission from the land owner to build a construction/house of the land
• all architect drawings made with your name as house owner
• a building permission from the tessa ban-office in your name
• all building constructor contracts issued in your name
• all money transfers for construction made from your account, and/or receipt for payments carrying your name

Thanks! All of the above has been completed.

 

Did you have any difficulties during the process?

[Tony125]

1 hour ago, SimpleMan555 said:

Only when the property was purchased after the marriage. I also understand, it is not a simple matter to cancel and would mozt likely involve the court.

Isn't that what I wrote in  my post?  If the wife goes to diviorce court the court  can overturn/cancell the Usufruct or even any pre-nup that they rule is unfair/illegal.

[khunPer]

6 hours ago, SimpleMan555 said:

Thanks! All of the above has been completed.

 

Did you have any difficulties during the process?

Not at all, but unfortunately I now get the property tax bill in my name...????