Elderly expats dazed and confused over insurance, ‘retirement visas’ and COVID

[skatewash]

12 minutes ago, starky said:

Yeah mate understood what I'm saying is you won't get motorcycle insurance if your not a licensed motorcycle rider. There are plans that cover the hiring of motorcycles of course.

 Agree.  You can buy insurance for a motorcycle but whether you will actually be able to claim successfully may depend on your being legally licensed for motorcycles.  If not you're just giving your insurance company an out if they don't want to pay.

[Boomer6969]

11 hours ago, JetsetBkk said:

Exactly! It makes no logical sense. And to cap it all, a person with an O-A can change it to an O and then not have to get the health insurance - the same person, the same body, the same age, just a different stamp in the passport. Ridiculous.

Exactly, that's what they are thinking at Thai Immigration right now, and are probably in the process of fixing it. And I can assure you it won't be by removing the existing HI requirements.

[sitta]

What will be the cost of Insurance for OA visa for 73+ ?

[slm7clov]

I am considering traveling home to Sweden for a few months in early 2022. Have Extension of Stay until 30 Oct 2022 and will not request Re-Entry Permit but request a new Non-O Visa at the Thai Embassy. My question is whether in that case 90 days insurance for Thailand Pass is enough.

Have found a Thai insurance company that has a reasonable cost up to 99 years of age.

https://www.tipinsure.com/CovidRegional/step_1

The question is whether this insurance is sufficient for Thailand Pass.

[Polaky]

11 minutes ago, slm7clov said:

I am considering traveling home to Sweden for a few months in early 2022. Have Extension of Stay until 30 Oct 2022 and will not request Re-Entry Permit but request a new Non-O Visa at the Thai Embassy. My question is whether in that case 90 days insurance for Thailand Pass is enough.

Have found a Thai insurance company that has a reasonable cost up to 99 years of age.

https://www.tipinsure.com/CovidRegional/step_1

The question is whether this insurance is sufficient for Thailand Pass.

Yes, I used them, they are also understanding if your dates change, and are easy to contact.

[Chad3000]

1 hour ago, BritManToo said:

Obviously the money you paid your agent can fix that.

I disagree. The agent will be doing that runner.

 

They want it THIS way because they want it this way.

 

Never understood use of agents to avoid hasslesime this. You probably spend more time with them spoon feeding you documents and sitting around making photocopies then just doing it yourself

[Sheryl]

4 hours ago, elgenon said:

Hi Sheryl, I need you to give me your opinion. Would a Medicare Advantage insurance work. It covers any foreign hospital visit with no limit. Thanks

Which plan is this?

I have never heard of a Medicare Advantage Plan that does this. A few MediGap plans will cover emergency care abroad, but to my knowledge no medicare Advantage Plan will.

 

Whatever insurance is sued you would need a statrement or policy cover page that clearly indicates coverage in Thailand (or workdwide cover) that includes COVID.

[Sheryl]

2 hours ago, slm7clov said:

I am considering traveling home to Sweden for a few months in early 2022. Have Extension of Stay until 30 Oct 2022 and will not request Re-Entry Permit but request a new Non-O Visa at the Thai Embassy. My question is whether in that case 90 days insurance for Thailand Pass is enough.

Have found a Thai insurance company that has a reasonable cost up to 99 years of age.

https://www.tipinsure.com/CovidRegional/step_1

The question is whether this insurance is sufficient for Thailand Pass.

This policy is designed for the old rules and is $100k COVID only. Worked fine for the old COE.

 

However under ThailandPass the new requirement is for $50 of overall health insurance, not just COVID.

 

That said, the whole insurance requirement  remains shrouded in confusion.

 

You could try, but so far I have not seen any report of people being able to get entry with a COVID only policy. Let us know what happens.

[Sheryl]

11 hours ago, Salerno said:

They can; it was even used as part of the justification for the changes (many media outlets reported this).

 

Check your Embassy page and you'll likely find something similar to the below:

 

The applicant who prefer to use health insurance policy issued by foreign insurance companies for the visa application must furnish a completed “Insurance Certificate”, as well as a copy of certificate of health insurance policy that which covers all kind of medical treatment ( both in-house patient and out-patient) and includes COVID-19 related treatment, with the minimum coverage of 3,000,000 THB during the entire period of stay in Thailand.

 

Which is from the Canberra Embassy.

 

 

 

 

That is for issuance of a new O-A visa and was always the case.

Question is for in-country extensions of stay. Which unlike initial visa issuance, used to require a local policy  from one of 13 pre-approved com[anies.

[Salerno]

5 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

Question is for in-country extensions of stay. Which unlike initial visa issuance, used to require a local policy  from one of 13 pre-approved com[anies.

As I said, it was reported in various media part of the justifications for the change was to allow foreign policies to be used e.g.

 

In June this year, the cabinet made changes to the regulations to allow foreigners living in Thailand to purchase insurance policies outside Thailand to meet this requirement.

It had emerged that a significant number of elderly people had been forced to leave the country after living here for many years when they could not obtain the appropriate insurance cover from Thai insurers to comply with Immigration Bureau regulations.

 

https://www.thaiexaminer.com/thai-news-foreigners/2021/10/20/health-insurance-changes-for-expat-retirees/

[sirineou]

3 hours ago, Lemsta69 said:

well no, the answer's not obvious that's why I asked. thanks for explaining it so succinctly (not being sarcastic). that helps me understand the mindset a bit better.

 

as for earplugs, mate I'm not jumping in eyes wide shut, been holidaying in Thailand since 1997 and have been up and down the country so I know it reasonably well and also know the changes you're referring to as I've seen them myself. it is what it is, adapt or die.

My reply to your post was a bit terse,

I get what you were saying , money does go a long way towards ironing out some or the wrinkles of Thai life. But there is a difference to visiting here and living here. 

I was just like you , working in the west ,  coming her for a couple of months between projects. Then I retired,  we moved here, and I was confronted with the realities of living here as opposed to vacationing here. 

Don't get me wrong . there is a lot of good to Thailand, but it's the little things that accumulate and become a bigger thing collectively than it is individually.

In addition we Had covid and the associated restrictions, that  removed a lot of the good things and not only leaving the bad thing but increasing them 

Then it's the part of getting older and things that not only did not bother you when you were younger, They simply did not even register, but now they bother you. 

Every day that I read this forum and other ,as I log on I think

" what are they going to come up with today" 

We want to go to Europe in the next few months, If we do, we don't even know if we will be able to come back.

I am here on an extension based to Marriage with multiple returns, 

Would I need Medical insurance to come back? Could I even get insurance at my age? 

Anyway don't get discouraged by all this, come over here and give it a go, who knows covid can be over, and things could get back to normal,

But alway have a plan B. 

[Rimmer]

A troll/racist post has been removed

[Pattaya Spotter]

4 hours ago, DoctorB said:

Eh?? Then how do you define the longterm O-A and O-X visas obtainable from overseas embassies and consulates, and available only to the over 50s? Try reading the original article. It makes the distinction between the O-A, O-X visas and the in-country extension to the non-immigrant O quite clear. These are the visas with the stringent health insurance requirements, preferrably from the approved list of Thai companies.

Visas which allow up to two years stay in the Kingdom, and which may be extended for a year annually for those who meet the requirements. 

[Sheryl]

24 minutes ago, Salerno said:

As I said, it was reported in various media part of the justifications for the change was to allow foreign policies to be used e.g.

 

In June this year, the cabinet made changes to the regulations to allow foreigners living in Thailand to purchase insurance policies outside Thailand to meet this requirement.

It had emerged that a significant number of elderly people had been forced to leave the country after living here for many years when they could not obtain the appropriate insurance cover from Thai insurers to comply with Immigration Bureau regulations.

 

https://www.thaiexaminer.com/thai-news-foreigners/2021/10/20/health-insurance-changes-for-expat-retirees/

 

What the media says and what local Imm offices will do, often differs.  I have not seen any police order giving new instructions to IOs on in-country extensions for retirement based on an original O-A visa and  that is what would be needed. As far as I know it will still have to be one of the 13 approved Thai companies and listed in the tgia database.

 

Hopefully new order will be issued at some point.  It will have to specify what type of documentation IOs are to require.

[pablo el sueco]

57 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

Hopefully new order will be issued at some point.  It will have to specify what type of documentation IOs are to require.

With regard to documentation that the IOs might accept, I wonder why they wouldn't want to rely on the methodology already employed by the local professionals.

 

Based on what I've read on this thread, hospitals withhold service until they are convinced they will get reimbursed for it.  This makes me conclude that hospitals must have a tried-and-true method for determining the legitimacy of a foreign insurance policy.  Indeed, some insurers have established a network of hospitals in Bangkok that welcome their policies.  If hospitals can verify insurance coverage, and are satisfied with their methodology, then surely this approach would be superior to anything the IO can develop for verifying insurance.

 

Let Immigration establish a link to whatever the hospitals use.  Or, alternatively, let the IO contact a Bangkok Hospital that is in the insurers network, and receive confirmation that way.

 

The government wants to be assured that retirees are going to pay their medical bills.  Hospitals do that already if I'm not mistaken.

[Sheryl]

12 minutes ago, pablo el sueco said:

With regard to documentation that the IOs might accept, I wonder why they wouldn't want to rely on the methodology already employed by the local professionals.

 

Based on what I've read on this thread, hospitals withhold service until they are convinced they will get reimbursed for it.  This makes me conclude that hospitals must have a tried-and-true method for determining the legitimacy of a foreign insurance policy.  Indeed, some insurers have established a network of hospitals in Bangkok that welcome their policies.  If hospitals can verify insurance coverage, and are satisfied with their methodology, then surely this approach would be superior to anything the IO can develop for verifying insurance.

 

Let Immigration establish a link to whatever the hospitals use.  Or, alternatively, let the IO contact a Bangkok Hospital that is in the insurers network, and receive confirmation that way.

 

The government wants to be assured that retirees are going to pay their medical bills.  Hospitals do that already if I'm not mistaken.

There are any number of ways it could be done but the end result needs to be something very, very simple at the level of an Immigration Office, something that officers located all over the country can quickly apply in cookbook fashion.

 

IOs tend to be extremely literal-minded in this regard. It needs to be spelled out in just a sentence or tywo with minimal room for interpetation.

 

If it were me, what I would do is establish a 2 track system: (1) list of pre-approved policies , developed through rapid survey of private hospitals and consultation with Embassies, to include Thai SS and foreign government programs for veterans etc as well as private insurers with direct payment agreements with private hospitals. Name of the issuing company and name of the policy. Update this periodically as additional policies are verified (see #2) (2) System for approving other types of insurance through contract with a private entity (a broker with expertise in expat and travel insurance, for example) with cost to be born by the applicant - one time submission i.e. once letter of approval obtained can use same policy on subsequent years.

 

But even that is probably still too complicated for Imm and anyway they do nto consult me nor anyone else familiar with the expat community and types of expat insurance.

 

What would certainly not work, is to have the 70-odd provincial Imm offices each separately review insurance policy documents that are usually in English and can run to dozens of pages or more.

 

Many of the current problems with both the insurance requirement for O-A visa and the requirements for meeting financial requirement in absence of an Embassy letter, resulting from this need to have very, very simple documentation requirements suitable for quick application by upcountry IOs.

 

Should note that even if documentation requirements were sorted out in a feasible way, there would still be a problem for many older expats. What is really needed is one or more insurance products specifically designed for that group. Unfortunately to date, local insurers have been unwlling to develop anything for people over age 75 and government has been unwilling to design their own plan.

[moogradod]

30 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

.....................

What is really needed is one or more insurance products specifically designed for that group. Unfortunately to date, local insurers have been unwlling to develop anything for people over age 75 and government has been unwilling to design their own plan.

Yes. But not only no products for the elderly, there must be a solution for the ones with preconditions as well. After all it is not the aim to have an insurance but the goal is that everybody can pay their hospital bills.

 

An insurance is only one possible means to achieve that. A fixed account for health, as even proposed in June this year, could be another easy one in addition and this could solve a lot of problems for many.

[Sheryl]

31 minutes ago, moogradod said:

Yes. But not only no products for the elderly, there must be a solution for the ones with preconditions as well. After all it is not the aim to have an insurance but the goal is that everybody can pay their hospital bills.

 

An insurance is only one possible means to achieve that. A fixed account for health, as even proposed in June this year, could be another easy one in addition and this could solve a lot of problems for many.

 

Even that has some complexities and the devil will be in the details.

 

What was previously mentioned in the press seemed to be a permanent parking of US $100,000 in an account without, apparently, any option of ever using it without  invalidating the extension of stay.  Which hardly meets the need or intended purpose.

 

To work, an account would need to (1) have beneficiary provision so that, on one's death, designated beneficiary can immediately access the money to pay off medical bills and funeral expenses.  (2) have some provision that allows you ready access to funds for health care costs when needed. Might be a loan function, using the main deposit as collateral, or might be a provision allowing withdrawals as long as replenished within a specific time frame.

 

Either way, looking at a special banking product that would need to be designed for the purpose.

 

Without attention to these sort of issues, a "health account"  will not serve the intended function. Just create one more barrier.

[moogradod]

2 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

 

Even that has some complexities and the devil will be in the details.

 

What was previously mentioned in the press seemed to be a permanent parking of US $100,000 in an account without, apparently, any option of ever using it without  invalidating the extension of stay.  Which hardly meets the need or intended purpose.

 

To work, an account would need to (1) have beneficiary provision so that, on one's death, designated beneficiary can immediately access the money to pay off medical bills and funeral expenses.  (2) have some provision that allows you ready access to funds for health care costs when needed. Might be a loan function, using the main deposit as collateral, or might be a provision allowing withdrawals as long as replenished within a specific time frame.

 

Either way, looking at a special banking product that would need to be designed for the purpose.

 

Without attention to these sort of issues, a "health account"  will not serve the intended function. Just create one more barrier.

Agree, devils in the details always exist. Thats why it is so difficult to conclude any contract and mostly there are loopholes. I have concluded contracts professionally for decades.

 

Now the US$100'000.-- have been reduced to US$50'000.- One step in the right direction.

 

Death is a special case. The minority of the people inpatient would not just die (hopefully). But of course they could. Agree - should be looked at but not everything must be perfect. I think you do not prefer thousands of families be ripped apart creating unimaginable sorrow instead. And I still cannot get it: a 500.-- THB charge from every tourist would overwhelmingly satisfy any risk.

 

So I would not like to call it barrier - but rather a challenge. A solvable challenge. A human challenge. A compassionate challenge.

[Salerno]

2 minutes ago, moogradod said:

Now the US$100'000.-- have been reduced to US$50'000.- One step in the right direction.

Only the insurance requirement due to covid.

 

Non O-A requirement on the other hand (nothing to do with covid), has gone from 40/400K Bht (out/inpatient)  to US$100K (general to include cover for covid).

[moogradod]

1 minute ago, Salerno said:

Only the insurance requirement due to covid.

 

Non O-A requirement on the other hand (nothing to do with covid), has gone from 40/400K Bht (out/inpatient)  to US$100K (general to include cover for covid).

Sorry, my mistake. So it's US$100K. But his does not change the fundamentals of the issue and my arguments - it is only the amount.

[Salerno]

5 hours ago, Sheryl said:

As far as I know it will still have to be one of the 13 approved Thai companies and listed in the tgia database.

That has never been the case, you have always been able to use foreign insurance - the problem being getting your insurance company to supply the letter they require.

 

https://longstay.tgia.org/document/overseas_insurance_certificate.pdf

 

Hopefully the changes will make it easier to use foreign policies as has been reported. 

 

[Sheryl]

20 minutes ago, Salerno said:

That has never been the case, you have always been able to use foreign insurance - the problem being getting your insurance company to supply the letter they require.

 

https://longstay.tgia.org/document/overseas_insurance_certificate.pdf

 

 Not so. The use of the foreign certificate was only allowed for initial issuance of the visa. For in-country extensions of stay, it has had to be one of the 13 Thai companies, no exceptions. This is as specified in the relevant police order.

 

The only way to use a foreign policy  long-term (if you can get over the hurdle of the certificate, which due to its poor wording most companies will nto/cannot sign) has been to get new O-A visa every 2 years. There has not been an option to use a foreign policy for an in-country extension.

 

Hopefully this will change but it has not yet AFAIK.

[Salerno]

4 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

For in-country extensions of stay, it has had to be one of the 13 Thai companies, no exceptions.

Ah, that explains the language in the reports then; I was wondering why they where saying using a foreign policy was "new".

[unblocktheplanet]

On 11/6/2021 at 4:02 PM, skatewash said:

If your desire is to avoid the Thai Immigration mandated health insurance then don't obtain a re-entry permit (thus allowing your current permission of stay to die) when leaving Thailand.

Yeah, I got that. I wonder if there are any policies like this available to us over-70s. I miss my family, but I wouldn't want to live there!

[Boomer6969]

5 hours ago, Sheryl said:

There are any number of ways it could be done but the end result needs to be something very, very simple at the level of an Immigration Office, something that officers located all over the country can quickly apply in cookbook fashion.

 

IOs tend to be extremely literal-minded in this regard. It needs to be spelled out in just a sentence or tywo with minimal room for interpetation.

 

If it were me, what I would do is establish a 2 track system: (1) list of pre-approved policies , developed through rapid survey of private hospitals and consultation with Embassies, to include Thai SS and foreign government programs for veterans etc as well as private insurers with direct payment agreements with private hospitals. Name of the issuing company and name of the policy. Update this periodically as additional policies are verified (see #2) (2) System for approving other types of insurance through contract with a private entity (a broker with expertise in expat and travel insurance, for example) with cost to be born by the applicant - one time submission i.e. once letter of approval obtained can use same policy on subsequent years.

 

But even that is probably still too complicated for Imm and anyway they do nto consult me nor anyone else familiar with the expat community and types of expat insurance.

 

What would certainly not work, is to have the 70-odd provincial Imm offices each separately review insurance policy documents that are usually in English and can run to dozens of pages or more.

 

Many of the current problems with both the insurance requirement for O-A visa and the requirements for meeting financial requirement in absence of an Embassy letter, resulting from this need to have very, very simple documentation requirements suitable for quick application by upcountry IOs.

 

Should note that even if documentation requirements were sorted out in a feasible way, there would still be a problem for many older expats. What is really needed is one or more insurance products specifically designed for that group. Unfortunately to date, local insurers have been unwlling to develop anything for people over age 75 and government has been unwilling to design their own plan.

Sheryl, the bottom line is that IOs are not and will never  be qualified to evaluate the value of a foreign health insurance policy. This should  remain strictly the responsibility of MPOH, who could indeed have the same access to insurance databases as most of the private hospitals have. It is a simple issue of division of work between government agencies; MPOH should open a dedicated office to validate our health covers and should charge for such service, I'd be happy to pay 5 or 10 k for such service if it saved me having to buy redundant coverage. Would be easy peasy to implement where we come from, but unfortunately near impossible, as it would be way too streamlined for this twisted and corrupt country, where government agencies compete for corruption income instead of cooperating. 

[Sheryl]

2 hours ago, Boomer6969 said:

Sheryl, the bottom line is that IOs are not and will never  be qualified to evaluate the value of a foreign health insurance policy. This should  remain strictly the responsibility of MPOH, who could indeed have the same access to insurance databases as most of the private hospitals have. It is a simple issue of division of work between government agencies; MPOH should open a dedicated office to validate our health covers and should charge for such service, I'd be happy to pay 5 or 10 k for such service if it saved me having to buy redundant coverage. Would be easy peasy to implement where we come from, but unfortunately near impossible, as it would be way too streamlined for this twisted and corrupt country, where government agencies compete for corruption income instead of cooperating. 

The MoPH has no expertise whatsoever in private insurance schemes, why would they? indeed their complete lack of understanding of health insurance has contributed to the bad policies.

 

Not remotely their mandate or area of expertise. And they are rather busy managing the public health care system.

 

IF they want private policies evaluated (which they probably do not, as too complicated) should contract it to a private entity with relevant expertise.

[Neeranam]

On 11/5/2021 at 10:45 AM, Chad3000 said:

Unpaid medical is a total red herring to be polite. We all know this. Most hospitals will literally escort you to ATM before discharge. No joke.

Yet many foreigners still escape without paying. 

 

Of course, all those on temporary visas should have insurance. 

 

 

[Neeranam]

3 hours ago, Boomer6969 said:

Would be easy peasy to implement where we come from, but unfortunately near impossible, as it would be way too streamlined for this twisted and corrupt country, where government agencies compete for corruption income instead of cooperating. 

This corrupted country is welcomed by the very expat that can't afford health insurance. 

 

Have you any idea the number of people here on retirement visas that were got illegally through an agent? These fraudsters can only get a visa by illegal means as they can't show the 800k in the bank, which is a requirement for staying in the country. The crooked agent either pay 15k directly to the IO or have a bent  teller in the bank. I know one agent in Pattaya that even has an IO in the bank! 

 

You can't burn your cake at both ends - welcome the corrupt nature of immigration letting you stay, then criticize them for asking for insurance. 

[WhiteBuffaloATM]

Imm. make ALL the immi. rules, including whether or not to apply any rule, or apply no rules, and agent use. there are actually written Imm. rules allowing all of this. many agents are Immi. officers. 

 

so if a passport visa / extn stamp is also on Imm. computer, it’s Irrevocably Legal. And Irrelevant how it got there. this set up logically means both (a) there are no rules and (b) because of (a) there can be no corruption.It’s Beautiful !