Elderly expats dazed and confused over insurance, ‘retirement visas’ and COVID

[chilli42]

5 hours ago, fiddlehead said:

In 1985, my health insurance coverage refused to pay for stiches in my hand.  I had been paying them $350 a month for the past 10 years or so.    I stopped the coverage at that time (when they refused to pay for my hand problem because of their fine print exemptions)    Since then, prices have gone up dramatically, but, even if they hadn't, I figure they lost AT LEAST  $4000 a year for the past 35 years from me!    That amount of savings (by me) should cover any  medical problem that I come up  with here in Thailand.   I hope that helps you understand.    I've had two trips to the hospital here in my 20 years here and they cost me a combined total of $4,500         

Understand, your issue is the quality of insurance available.  Certainly if you can’t count in your insurance then that is a real problem.  Related to this. I am 68 and in the last 3 years I unfortunately have had a couple of serious medical conditions (that thankfully seem behind me now).  The cost of seeing these resolved was in the range of US$100,000.  Hope you don’t bump up against the same.

[Pattaya Spotter]

What does a $50k health insurance policy cost...maybe a couple hundred bucks. These global traveling expats can't afford that ????

[Chad3000]

1 hour ago, chilli42 said:

So the issue is the “quality” of insurance coverage available?  

??

 

I'm covered. That's the issue. In fact, I'm not able to track this information down but supposedly people working and holding government insurance need not buy insurance.

 

The trouble is that it's only been mentioned a few times on this site so far. There are just too few of us.

[Chad3000]

2 hours ago, Thingamabob said:

If anyone, of any age,  has no money in Thailand best to get out fast in any way you can. It's got nothing to do with being old.

I don't disagree but when the article is about old people I think it has everything to do with being old.

 

Kind of a ridiculous comment.

[Chad3000]

3 hours ago, 10baht said:

Majority? Most?  You are painting with a broad brush. Not so north of Chiang Mai.

I would absolutely love to see the numbers of individuals on OA visas outside of these tourist hubs.

 

I would suspect they're absolutely insignificant.

[unblocktheplanet]

May we please cut to the chase, folks?

 

I'm 71. If I want to visit my kids next summer, can I even buy health cover?

 

If yes, about how much per month does it cost?

 

Better deal in home country than here?

 

I'd likely have 9-10 months left on my extension.

 

Or, as has been mentioned before, don't buy a re-entry permit, come in visa exempt (with required insurance, if available at age 71) & convert to non-O.

 

As the title of this post states, yeah, I'm dazed, confused...and scared & pee-ed off.

[moogradod]

10 minutes ago, Pattaya Spotter said:

What does a $50k health insurance policy cost...maybe a couple hundred bucks. These global traveling expats can't afford that ????

Maybe these global traveling expats - even if they have many millions of $ in the bank - can not GET it. !! It is enough to have diabetes or high blood pressure etc. - and be otherwise functioning very very well. But nobody wants to insure them - regardless of the premium which they could easily afford.

 

I hope this broadens your horizon of thinking a bit. There is much more to this insurance issue that meets the eye and the current solution is inhumane.

[skatewash]

18 hours ago, Rocking Robert said:

Insurance is everything why would you not have it

Do you think there might be a difference between having insurance that meets your needs and having insurance that meets the needs of Thai Immigration and being able to prove it in a way that satisfies Thai Immigration?

[Pattaya Spotter]

10 minutes ago, moogradod said:

Maybe these global traveling expats - even if they have many millions of $ in the bank - can not GET it. !! It is enough to have diabetes or high blood pressure etc. - and be otherwise functioning very very well. But nobody wants to insure them - regardless of the premium which they could easily afford.

 

I hope this broadens your horizon of thinking a bit. There is much more to this insurance issue that meets the eye and the current solution is inhumane.

Thailand isn't a hospital ward for foreigners with metabolic syndrome...best they stay home and let their own national health systems look after them.

[skatewash]

17 hours ago, Enzian said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but a Non-O re-entry permit expires the same day as the visa; I was trying to keep details out.

A re-entry permit is valid until your current permission to stay expires.  When you receive a re-entry permit it is valid up until that date and will have that date stamped on the permit.  When you use a valid re-entry permit to re-enter Thailand you will be given a permission to stay up until your re-entry permit expires (which from the first sentence is the same date your permission to stay expires when you obtained the re-entry permit).

What may have been confusing to some is that a visa is really not the same thing as an extension of stay (even though many including immigration seem to use the two interchangeably).  Re-entry permits are only issued to applicants who have a current permission to stay.  The visa that granted that current permission to stay, or the extension of stay that extended it, isn't really of relevance (your visa may be expired at that point).  The re-entry permit allows one to re-enter and resume the permission of stay that was current when the re-entry permit was issued.

[skatewash]

12 hours ago, chilli42 said:

I am trying to understand how an older person would put themself in a situation where they would not have/want medical insurance.  I can understand it’s an unwelcome cost.  Can also understand that some may not be able to qualify due to age and/or prior illness.  However, having no medical insurance coverage seems somewhat high risk.  I am sure I am missing something so seeking to understand the situation

I think you may be missing the distinction in having medical insurance that satisfies your needs in a way that is satisfactory to you and having to prove that you meet the requirements of Thai Immigration for a medical insurance policy in a way that is satisfactory to them.

[skatewash]

9 hours ago, starky said:

You might want to read the fine print there is hardly any travel insurance that would cover you riding a motorcycle. Further to that I would posit that a lot (maybe most?)  people hiring bikes and scooters here probably don't even have a motorcycle license in their own country therefore there is no way any sort of insurance would cover them. Same happens in many countries where idiots want to hire bikes they don't know how to ride. And jet skis and other dangerous things people want to do on holidays but if they were barred from participating in those things they would whinge about that as well.

Addressing only the issue of insurance that covers motorcycle riding in Thailand, Bangkok Bank offers a personal accident policy that specifically covers that (see section 3):

https://www.bangkokbank.com/en/Personal/My-Family-and-Me/Bancassurance/BKI/PA-1st/PA-1st-Smart

My understanding is that there are not many that do.  I have claimed and been fully covered up to the maximum amount insured for motorcycle accidents before using this policy.

[skatewash]

1 hour ago, chilli42 said:

So the issue is the “quality” of insurance coverage available?  

Among other things.

The enforcement mechanism occurs whenever you apply for an extension of stay or re-enter the country.  Your coverage must cover the period from when the application is granted or when you enter the country up until your permission of stay expires.  In other words, your insurance coverage must be synchronized to the satisfaction of Thai Immigration.  If it's not you won't receive permission to stay in excess of your insurance coverage.  Having to adjust your coverage dates to suit Thai Immigration is less than convenient.

[skatewash]

42 minutes ago, unblocktheplanet said:

May we please cut to the chase, folks?

 

I'm 71. If I want to visit my kids next summer, can I even buy health cover?

 

If yes, about how much per month does it cost?

 

Better deal in home country than here?

 

I'd likely have 9-10 months left on my extension.

 

Or, as has been mentioned before, don't buy a re-entry permit, come in visa exempt (with required insurance, if available at age 71) & convert to non-O.

 

As the title of this post states, yeah, I'm dazed, confused...and scared & pee-ed off.

If your desire is to avoid the Thai Immigration mandated health insurance then don't obtain a re-entry permit (thus allowing your current permission of stay to die) when leaving Thailand.  Then, either obtain a Non-O visa from outside of Thailand or enter Thailand on a visa-exempt and obtain your Non-O visa inside of Thailand.  This would free you from the obligation to satisfy Thai Immigration's health insurance mandate for the 9-10 month period you would otherwise have to cover if you entered on a re-entry permit.  You would have to cover it for the 30 days you would be stamped in for on a visa-exempt or the 90 days you would be stamped in for on a Non-O visa.

[DULEROY]

On 11/5/2021 at 9:52 AM, hereforgood said:

Only OA for now anyway

The new criteria will apply both to applicants for this type of visa for the first time and to extensions of stay.

OA= Longstay - code 2.22   Can be verified on your stamp extension   

[Felt 35]

I have this 40K/ 400K insurance which I signed up for some years ago in case the situation quickly should demand that they on Non O retirement extensions also would need insurance for Immigration purposes and as I understand it for now its still not a requirement as long as I not travel out and reenter but then comes my question for travelling in I need higher coverage but what when I'm back here in my routine daily life.

 

In advance thank you.

Felt

[medina21]

 

3 hours ago, Bogbrush said:

If you’re extending your visa in Jan 22 then your insurance needs extending at the same time - not Aug - or you won’t get a years extension, surely? The issue of you leaving/returning after extending in Jan then falls away, as your ‘valid till’ date stamped on return will be concomitant with your extension (and insurance) expiry in Jan 23.

 

Thanks for replying. I have a Non O visa for the purposes of retirement and do not need health insurance as a requirement of this visa. I have health insurance because it's the wise thing to do. So my question remains, does your health insurance to re-enter Thailand have to be valid until the expiry date of your extension, or are they just happy to see that you have a policy. 

[Felt 35]

58 minutes ago, skatewash said:

Among other things.

The enforcement mechanism occurs whenever you apply for an extension of stay or re-enter the country.  Your coverage must cover the period from when the application is granted or when you enter the country up until your permission of stay expires.  In other words, your insurance coverage must be synchronized to the satisfaction of Thai Immigration.  If it's not you won't receive permission to stay in excess of your insurance coverage.  Having to adjust your coverage dates to suit Thai Immigration is less than convenient.

So in other words if I go one month to Europe (I'm on Non O retirement extension) to visit relatives/family the 40K/400K health insurance I have here must be upgraded when returning and cover me until next extension here...hmm but here people on extension pr. today not need insurance????

Felt

[skatewash]

2 minutes ago, medina21 said:

 

Thanks for replying. I have a Non O visa for the purposes of retirement and do not need health insurance as a requirement of this visa. I have health insurance because it's the wise thing to do. So my question remains, does your health insurance to re-enter Thailand have to be valid until the expiry date of your extension, or are they just happy to see that you have a policy. 

It has to be valid until the expiry date of your extension.  

[skatewash]

4 minutes ago, Felt 35 said:

So in other words if I go one month to Europe (I'm on Non O retirement extension) to visit relatives/family the 40K/400K health insurance I have here must be upgraded when returning and cover me until next extension here...hmm but here people on extension pr. today not need insurance????

Felt

Two separate issues that cause understandable confusion, so let me separate them.

General health insurance that one as a holder of a Non-OA Visa or re-entry permit for an extension of stay based on a Non-OA must have to enter Thailand or apply for a new extension of stay.  In the case of a valid Non-OA visa you will be stamped into Thailand for the shorter period of one year (to which you are entitled by the Non-OA) or the coverage period of your health insurance.  In the case of a re-entry permit you will be stamped into Thailand for the permission to stay until the expiration of the re-entry permit or the coverage period of your health insurance, whichever is shorter.  This does not apply to you as a holder of an extension of stay from a Non-O visa.

General health insurance that one must have when you enter Thailand to cover the initial period of your permission of stay.  All must have this insurance (except for Thais).  The coverage is $50,000 USD and must include covid.  How this effects you is determined by how you enter Thailand:

visa-exempt entry means you are given 30 day permission to stay and must have this period covered by your insurance

 

tourist visa entry means you are given 60 day permission to stay and must have this period covered by your insurance

 

non-O visa means you are given 90 day permission to stay and must have this period covered by your insurance

 

re-entry permit means you are given permission to stay equal to the "until" date on your re-entry permit and must have this period covered by your insurance.

Once in Thailand you will be able to apply for a new extension of stay based on your Non-O visa without needing health insurance coverage.  Someone in Thailand who applies for a new extension of stay based on a Non-OA visa WILL need health insurance coverage.

[Felt 35]

13 minutes ago, skatewash said:

Two separate issues that cause understandable confusion, so let me separate them.

General health insurance that one as a holder of a Non-OA Visa or re-entry permit for an extension of stay based on a Non-OA must have to enter Thailand or apply for a new extension of stay.  In the case of a valid Non-OA visa you will be stamped into Thailand for the shorter period of one year (to which you are entitled by the Non-OA) or the coverage period of your health insurance.  In the case of a re-entry permit you will be stamped into Thailand for the permission to stay until the expiration of the re-entry permit or the coverage period of your health insurance, whichever is shorter.  This does not apply to you as a holder of an extension of stay from a Non-O visa.

General health insurance that one must have when you enter Thailand to cover the initial period of your permission of stay.  All must have this insurance (except for Thais).  The coverage is $50,000 USD and must include covid.  How this effects you is determined by how you enter Thailand:

visa-exempt entry means you are given 30 day permission to stay and must have this period covered by your insurance

 

tourist visa entry means you are given 60 day permission to stay and must have this period covered by your insurance

 

non-O visa means you are given 90 day permission to stay and must have this period covered by your insurance

 

re-entry permit means you are given permission to stay equal to the "until" date on your re-entry permit and must have this period covered by your insurance.

Once in Thailand you will be able to apply for a new extension of stay based on your Non-O visa without needing health insurance coverage.  Someone in Thailand who applies for a new extension of stay based on a Non-OA visa WILL need health insurance coverage.

Maybe I'm far of but if this shall follow the "Covid Thailand pass system" for re-entry, my personal 40K/400K with a max coverage annually of 900K will not be good enough until the re -entry expire / permission to stay expire, but after applying and eventually granted a new one year extension its good enough????????????

Felt

[skatewash]

2 minutes ago, Felt 35 said:

Maybe I'm far of but if this shall follow the "Covid Thailand pass system" for re-entry, my personal 40K/400K with a max coverage annually of 900K will not be good enough until the re -entry expire / permission to stay expire, but after applying and eventually granted a new one year extension its good enough????????????

Felt

Yes, correct your personal 40K/400K coverage is not sufficient to the $50,000 USD coverage including covid required now for entry into Thailand.
I would call this entry insurance as it only needs to cover your initial permission to stay granted.  If you use a re-entry permit you will be stamped in for a permission to stay until your "until" date on your re-entry permit (which could be almost a year away).

Then there is the insurance required for Non-OA holders or extensions thereof.  This is what you are NOT required to have (as you are a holder of a Non-O visa/extension).

So when your permission to stay in Thailand is about to expire you can go get another extension of stay from your local immigration office and because you are on a Non-O (note the absence of the A) you are not required to have insurance.

 

Put in other words, a holder of a non-O visa/extension is only ever required to have health insurance when they enter Thailand and it only needs to cover the period of their initial permission to stay which in the case of a re-entry permit will be until the "until" date on the permit.
 

[TaoNow]

As JingThing said: "Another one caught in the relentless weeding out the older and poorer web. Again -- residency security. We don't have it here, the Thai government obviously knows that and doesn't intend to give it to us, and the consequences of that to those that have been here for many many years (and often have nothing to return to) can be devastating."

 

Yes, JT -- this is the deeper issue which that 76 year-old poster's sub-dilemma is part of. 

 

The Covid pandemic has seemed to give the government (and mainstream Thai society) a lengthy "time-out" to reconsider what types of tourists and long-stay ex-pats they want to encourage. 

 

As I pointed out in a lengthy post several years ago, Thailand does not have -- and never has had -- a policy to encourage older ex-pats to retire in Thailand.   But they have made it relatively easy to do so; that is, for pensioners or those with $25K to set aside. 

 

Although I have lived here for most of the past 50 years, I have never -- not for one second -- felt that the Thai government or society owes me any kind of security to live here indefinitely.  And while I do not have a viable Plan B, my belief is that those ex-pats who have integrated into Thai society, learned the language well, and fully respect the culture, will be given a path to stay on.

 

That may be naive, wishful thinking.  But I am willing to take that gamble -- because continuing to live here means that much to me.

 

[Jingthing]

27 minutes ago, TaoNow said:

As JingThing said: "Another one caught in the relentless weeding out the older and poorer web. Again -- residency security. We don't have it here, the Thai government obviously knows that and doesn't intend to give it to us, and the consequences of that to those that have been here for many many years (and often have nothing to return to) can be devastating."

 

Yes, JT -- this is the deeper issue which that 76 year-old poster's sub-dilemma is part of. 

 

The Covid pandemic has seemed to give the government (and mainstream Thai society) a lengthy "time-out" to reconsider what types of tourists and long-stay ex-pats they want to encourage. 

 

As I pointed out in a lengthy post several years ago, Thailand does not have -- and never has had -- a policy to encourage older ex-pats to retire in Thailand.   But they have made it relatively easy to do so; that is, for pensioners or those with $25K to set aside. 

 

Although I have lived here for most of the past 50 years, I have never -- not for one second -- felt that the Thai government or society owes me any kind of security to live here indefinitely.  And while I do not have a viable Plan B, my belief is that those ex-pats who have integrated into Thai society, learned the language well, and fully respect the culture, will be given a path to stay on.

 

That may be naive, wishful thinking.  But I am willing to take that gamble -- because continuing to live here means that much to me.

 

Yes. Definitely naive unless you are in a status that leads to permanent residence.

[Bogbrush]

2 hours ago, medina21 said:

 

Thanks for replying. I have a Non O visa for the purposes of retirement and do not need health insurance as a requirement of this visa. I have health insurance because it's the wise thing to do. So my question remains, does your health insurance to re-enter Thailand have to be valid until the expiry date of your extension, or are they just happy to see that you have a policy. 

Valid until the expiry date - and has to be a minimum of $50 000; not sure what your existing cover is….

[DULEROY]

Non O visa for retirement purposes it is a code 2.22 it is a longstay so you must present a cover insurance at 3 million Baht and not at 400,000 baht as you say on your renewal no matter what if your visa was issued for the first time in the kingdom it is exactly the same as the OA requests at the embassy so please ask your immigration office and especially the head post officer and not the small staff at the counter

Note that I have had a Thai insurance homologated to the TGIA for 2 years on a plan at 400,000 baht price 63,200 baht 68 years old my new tarif at 3 Millions goes to 137,832 bahts I am in renewal  https://www.thaihealth.co.th/ en / non-immigrant-oa-1 an /

Edited November 6, 2021 by onthedarkside
quoted foreign language content removed

[Jingthing]

2 minutes ago, DULEROY said:

Non O visa for retirement purposes it is a code 2.22 it is a longstay so you must present a cover insurance at 3 million Baht and not at 400,000 baht as you say on your renewal no matter what if your visa was issued for the first time in the kingdom it is exactly the same as the OA requests at the embassy so please ask your immigration office and especially the head post officer and not the small staff at the counter

Note that I have had a Thai insurance homologated to the TGIA for 2 years on a plan at 400,000 baht price 63,200 baht 68 years old my new traif at 3Million goes to 137,832 bahts I am in renewal  https://www.thaihealth.co.th/ en / non-immigrant-oa-1 an /

If you started with an O visa extensions in Thailand require no insurance. Very different from an OA.

[gajah]

Another question. I have O-A retirement visa with 9 annual extensions, and both Cigna and LMG health care insurance. The LMG insurance matches my visa dates, so it has allowed me to extend my visa, while Cigna date do not match my visa. Now that Cigna will be allowed to extend my O-A visa, I wish to drop LMG. But I have to get my the Cigna dates to match my visa dates, unless that Immigration policy has changed. I have two choices -- I can ask Cigna to change my policy dates to match my visa dates, but they told me it would require canceling my policy, then starting a new policy year. This would open me up to underwriting, and possibly change the policy exclusions.

 

The other option is to see if Immigration will change my visa dates to match my Cigna policy dates. This would mean asking them to give me only a 3 month extension, then returning to Immigration for the normal 12 month extension.

 

Does anybody have any experience with this, and can offer me advice?

[sirineou]

Perhaps someone can explain it to me. 

I don't understand why getting a retirement visa outside Thailand requires such high health insurance coverage, and traveling here and then getting a retirement visa here does not.? 

Does a person get more sick if they get their visa outside Thailand? as opposed to someone who get's it here. 

[DULEROY]

10 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

If you started with an O visa extensions in Thailand require no insurance. Very different from an OA.

Do you know what mind Visa OA ???  and where you can find the régulation  and amendement in Thai ???