Elderly expats dazed and confused over insurance, ‘retirement visas’ and COVID

[tonray]

6 minutes ago, gajah said:

Another question. I have O-A retirement visa with 9 annual extensions, and both Cigna and LMG health care insurance. The LMG insurance matches my visa dates, so it has allowed me to extend my visa, while Cigna date do not match my visa. Now that Cigna will be allowed to extend my O-A visa, I wish to drop LMG. But I have to get my the Cigna dates to match my visa dates, unless that Immigration policy has changed. I have two choices -- I can ask Cigna to change my policy dates to match my visa dates, but they told me it would require canceling my policy, then starting a new policy year. This would open me up to underwriting, and possibly change the policy exclusions.

 

The other option is to see if Immigration will change my visa dates to match my Cigna policy dates. This would mean asking them to give me only a 3 month extension, then returning to Immigration for the normal 12 month extension.

 

Does anybody have any experience with this, and can offer me advice?

Your best bet is to restart your policy with Cigna. They should not need to change any underwriting criteria. Your other option is to leave the country and return with a new Visa with your entry matching your Cigna dates but that seems overkill.

[DULEROY]

The O Non-Immigrant retirement visa is exactly the same as an OA retirement visa.

The OA retirement visa is the only visa (sticker) out of the 37 existing ones which gives one year of validity to its primary obtaining in an embassy
The financial requirements are the same for the 2 as well as the minimum age of 50 years

 

 

 

[Jingthing]

5 minutes ago, DULEROY said:

The O Non-Immigrant retirement visa is exactly the same as an OA retirement visa.

The OA retirement visa is the only visa (sticker) out of the 37 existing ones which gives one year of validity to its primary obtaining in an embassy
The financial requirements are the same for the 2 as well as the minimum age of 50 years

 

 

Again if you start with an OA you need health insurance when extending in Thailand. Started with an O you don't.

[JetsetBkk]

1 hour ago, sirineou said:

Perhaps someone can explain it to me. 

I don't understand why getting a retirement visa outside Thailand requires such high health insurance coverage, and traveling here and then getting a retirement visa here does not.? 

Does a person get more sick if they get their visa outside Thailand? as opposed to someone who get's it here. 

Exactly! It makes no logical sense. And to cap it all, a person with an O-A can change it to an O and then not have to get the health insurance - the same person, the same body, the same age, just a different stamp in the passport. Ridiculous.

[DULEROY]

Here is a partial document which makes it clear that an OA or an O retirement is exactly the same as the code they are 2.22

Edited November 6, 2021 by onthedarkside
foreign language post content removed

[JetsetBkk]

On 11/5/2021 at 10:45 AM, Chad3000 said:

Unpaid medical is a total red herring to be polite. We all know this. Most hospitals will literally escort you to ATM before discharge. No joke.

After arriving at the hospital in agony in an ambulance, they diagnosed kidney stones and gave me drugs to help kill the pain. They wanted payment before they would operate. I showed them my bank passbook but obviously they didn't trust the farang. I had get a taxi to the bank to withdraw a load of cash.

 

Then they operated.

[Lemsta69]

9 minutes ago, JetsetBkk said:

Exactly! It makes no logical sense. And to cap it all, a person with an O-A can change it to an O and then not have to get the health insurance - the same person, the same body, the same age, just a different stamp in the passport. Ridiculous.

makes perfect sense to me. it's Thailand, that's how they do. if you don't like the barely contained chaos why did you bother moving there in the first place? not having a go, it's a genuine question. I'm retiring to Thailand in December and I'm looking forward to the shenanigans. maybe you just don't know how to play the game ($$$)

[asiasurfer]

On 11/5/2021 at 11:09 AM, brewsterbudgen said:

This thread is about retirees not tourists.

It's the same! ????

[JetsetBkk]

On 11/5/2021 at 1:43 PM, Salerno said:

Good question, until recently odds on you'd be grandfathered as per previous immigration changes. The O-A 40/400K killed that and possibly a precedent has been set.

Not true in Phuket:  

 

Medical Insurance:

From October 2020 an medical insurance is required for every retirement extension if it is based on a original Non-OA visa (Issued at the Thai Embassy in your home country) following the criteria explained below than it has to be shown and included in the extension based on retirement.
– If the Non-OA visa from your home country is issued In or BEFORE 2017 then the health insurance is NOT required for your extension.

 

https://piv-phuket.com/long-stay-extensions/retirement/

 

[onthedarkside]

Several posts with foreign language content have been removed and/or edited. English is the designated language in most of the forum, including the Thailand News section.

 

[Felt 35]

4 hours ago, skatewash said:

Yes, correct your personal 40K/400K coverage is not sufficient to the $50,000 USD coverage including covid required now for entry into Thailand.
I would call this entry insurance as it only needs to cover your initial permission to stay granted.  If you use a re-entry permit you will be stamped in for a permission to stay until your "until" date on your re-entry permit (which could be almost a year away).

Then there is the insurance required for Non-OA holders or extensions thereof.  This is what you are NOT required to have (as you are a holder of a Non-O visa/extension).

So when your permission to stay in Thailand is about to expire you can go get another extension of stay from your local immigration office and because you are on a Non-O (note the absence of the A) you are not required to have insurance.

 

Put in other words, a holder of a non-O visa/extension is only ever required to have health insurance when they enter Thailand and it only needs to cover the period of their initial permission to stay which in the case of a re-entry permit will be until the "until" date on the permit.
 

Ok, and thanks for clearing up my personal question/situation. This can actually fit well in with the summer in Europe because my extension now are valid until end August next year and if I not remember wrong so are the re-entry permit (passport in car and I'm not turning out again tonight will check tomorrow) so a June/July holiday 2022 could fit and then avoiding a too long expensive extra re-entry insurance. However lets hope the restrictions and need for a specific covid-19 insurance is gone by then.

Felt

 

Edited November 6, 2021 by Felt 35

[skatewash]

8 minutes ago, Felt 35 said:

Ok, and thanks for clearing up my personal question/situation. This can actually fit well in with the summer in Europe because my extension now are valid until end August next year and if I not remember wrong so are the re-entry permit (passport in car and I'm not turning out again tonight will check tomorrow) so a June/July holiday 2022 could fit and then avoiding a too long expensive extra re-entry insurance. However lets hope the restrictions and need for a specific covid-19 insurance is gone by then.

Felt

 

Yes, when you apply for your re-entry permit they require a copy of your extension of stay stamp.  The date of your permission to stay on that stamp (stay until date) is the date on which your re-entry permit expires.  Put another way, your re-entry permit is always valid from when you apply for it (actually when they grant the request, but that's usually the same date) till when your current permission to stay expires.

It might be a good strategy to plan a trip that would end before your extension of stay expires as that allows you to re-enter Thailand on a re-entry permit and only have to obtain insurance coverage for the short period before your extension of stay expires.  Then since there is no health insurance requirement currently for getting an extension of stay based on a Non-O visa you could minimize the time you do need to be covered.

[DoctorB]

8 hours ago, Pattaya Spotter said:

What does a $50k health insurance policy cost...maybe a couple hundred bucks. These global traveling expats can't afford that ????

No, they can't get cover from the companies on the approved list due to age restrictions. Most won't cover anyone over 65, a few will cover existing policy holders over 70 and non will cover over 75s. Given that few get to retire until their 60s they have created a retirement visa system  only available to those who can take early retirement. Absurd or what?

[Salerno]

11 hours ago, Sheryl said:

Does anyone happen to know if foreign policies can now be used for O-A extensions in country? Previously could not but I am nto clear on the current situation.

They can; it was even used as part of the justification for the changes (many media outlets reported this).

 

Check your Embassy page and you'll likely find something similar to the below:

 

The applicant who prefer to use health insurance policy issued by foreign insurance companies for the visa application must furnish a completed “Insurance Certificate”, as well as a copy of certificate of health insurance policy that which covers all kind of medical treatment ( both in-house patient and out-patient) and includes COVID-19 related treatment, with the minimum coverage of 3,000,000 THB during the entire period of stay in Thailand.

 

Which is from the Canberra Embassy.

 

There is also an "an out" for going the "self-insured" route that many claim to do; it's clear as mud and no indication how it would apply to an extension if at all.

 

If the applicant is refused to purchase the health insurance by the insurance company, the applicant can submit additional documents as follows:

(1) Letter of refusal to purchase health insurance from a Thai or foreign insurance company.

(2) A copy of an up-to-date bank statement with a minimum balance of THB 3,000,000 or AUD 125,000 maintained in the bank account for 2 months prior to the application.

(3) The combined of the other health insurance for the coverage of no less than THB 3,000,000.

 

What (3) means is anybodies guess ????‍♂️

 

 

Edited November 6, 2021 by Salerno

[DoctorB]

4 hours ago, DULEROY said:

Do you know what mind Visa OA ???  and where you can find the régulation  and amendement in Thai ??? 

Why don't you just read the original article which clears up the confusion nicely. How many times does it have to be said, there is no ''O non immigrant retirement visa' as such; there is a retirement extension that can be applied for inside the country by non immigrant O visa holders. The O-A long-term visa regulations are quite different, at present at least.

[James Roderick]

On 11/5/2021 at 10:47 AM, Enzian said:

I think what's being missed is that Non-O persons re-entering the country only need insurance for the period of stay they are stamped in for.    eg, I, a non-O holder, return on Dec. 7 and the IO looks at my PP and sees that my re-entry permit expires 14 days later on Dec. 20; she stamps me in to Dec. 20. The fact that I will stay much longer doesn't matter. I only need to buy 30 days of the required insurance. When that runs out I don't have to renew, Im back like I was way back, essentially self-insured.

Hi Enzian 

 

Thank you for your thoughts - they are very helpful. Just to clarify one point though. Is the expiry date of your re-entry permit and the expiry date of your non- o visa the same, or are they different ? From your example they must be different, but then I don't follow your logic.   In the example, If my return date is December 7 , why does the reentry  permit expire on December 20 - only 14 days later ? Also, I don't see how you arrive at 30 days for the insurance requirement ! If my Non-o visa expires on say May 7, wouldn't I need to buy insurance for the six months from December 7 to May 7?

[Enzian]

34 minutes ago, James Roderick said:

Hi Enzian 

 

Thank you for your thoughts - they are very helpful. Just to clarify one point though. Is the expiry date of your re-entry permit and the expiry date of your non- o visa the same, or are they different ? From your example they must be different, but then I don't follow your logic.   In the example, If my return date is December 7 , why does the reentry  permit expire on December 20 - only 14 days later ? Also, I don't see how you arrive at 30 days for the insurance requirement ! If my Non-o visa expires on say May 7, wouldn't I need to buy insurance for the six months from December 7 to May 7?

I should have put in more detail. Yes, the Non-O and reentry permit expire at the same time, but people like Sheryl have been emphasizing that we look at the permit, and not the permission or extension of stay, because it has left the original Non-O visa behind (the extension is not the original visa which is for 90 days). 

Sorry, I should have made clear that I was giving my own case: I fly in on 12/7, hoping to extend my stay by or before 12/20 when my permit expires. Usually the shortest time for which one can buy insurance is 30 days, but some travel insurance may be more specific; 30 days would cover my case. 

And yes, unless they drop the requirement, Non-O holders will have to buy insurance for several months in some cases. I have seen speculation that this could be avoided by buying a ticket out for a sooner date, but no confirmation that such would work, or that any work-around would work. If anyone knows, please post.

[sirineou]

5 hours ago, Lemsta69 said:

makes perfect sense to me. it's Thailand, that's how they do. if you don't like the barely contained chaos why did you bother moving there in the first place? not having a go, it's a genuine question. I'm retiring to Thailand in December and I'm looking forward to the shenanigans. maybe you just don't know how to play the game ($$$)

Why do people always say the"if you don't like the barely contained chaos why did you bother moving there in the first place? "

The answer should be obvious and a bit different for everyone. 

I thought I would like it but I don't

I like it then. but I don't like it now.

I am here because my wife is from here and I love her, 

It was nice but they change it.

Etc etc

Good luck when you retire here, we need someone to come and teach us how to play the game. 

PS: if you are a light sleeper bring earplugs, or perhaps you can stuff some dollar bills in your ears, LOL 

 

 

[Chad3000]

6 hours ago, Lemsta69 said:

makes perfect sense to me. it's Thailand, that's how they do. if you don't like the barely contained chaos why did you bother moving there in the first place? not having a go, it's a genuine question. I'm retiring to Thailand in December and I'm looking forward to the shenanigans. maybe you just don't know how to play the game ($$$)

You really don't know what you're talking about but Thailand's indifferent and lifesucking bureaucracy welcome's you and your money.

 

All the money in the world won't change them demanding payment before they perform that emergency procedure (post above yours).

 

When the IO wants one more copy or you added photos vertical not horizontal or did not include a document she wants or sends you on some other goose chase money can't fix that.

 

Guess you'll be going for elite visa to avoid above as well as simply avoiding annual extension all together. This is the stupid time when Immigration collect a stack of identical papers from you year after year.

 

Online 90 day report is broken. The fix is sending it thru the sketchy mail system, giving your passport to a motorbike driver or in person. Half a day of your life wasted.

 

TM30 that is a total disaster. Money won't fix that.

 

Getting a reentry permit to leave the country. Money fixes that only by paying more for the permit than the extension.

 

All your money won't change whether you can go to a restaurant, enjoy a beer there.

 

All your money won't change the fact that if you develop covid you'll be forced to a hospital or hotel for double the price.

 

All your money won't remove the hassles of PCR tests for flying in and out of the country as well as a very, very expensive one night hotel stay.

 

All your money might lessen the sting of over taxed beef, wine, shaving cream, electronics but you'll pay it just the same. Tax on automobiles is just ridiculous.

 

All your money will not allow you to legally own a home on property unless it's really big money and you are stupid enough to operate a business here.

 

Money won't fix all the bureaucratic nonsense when dealing with commercial banks.

 

More money won't make money stolen out of your account reappear but maybe you'll just I don't know...shrug it off because you know...you have so much money.

 

Money won't help you get or maintain a driver's license. Enjoy collecting the bits of paper and especially the process.

 

Money won't fix the endless waits at BTS MRT during rush hour.

 

Big money can get a safety box just be careful because employees get into those boxes on occasion.

 

All your money won't make you any safer on the roadway.

 

You just don't know but it pleases me to no end you're gonna find out. In the end you'll probably be twice as disappointed as us. We accept the chaos and withstand it complaining aside. You believe you can pay your way out of a foreigner's frustrations and you really can't.

 

This is precisely why so many of us scoff this country can attract one million millionaires.

[Pattaya Spotter]

7 hours ago, DoctorB said:

No, they can't get cover from the companies on the approved list due to age restrictions. Most won't cover anyone over 65, a few will cover existing policy holders over 70 and non will cover over 75s. Given that few get to retire until their 60s they have created a retirement visa system  only available to those who can take early retirement. Absurd or what?

Thailand doesn't issue retirement visas...only yearly extensions of stay in the country for those who meet certain requirements. 

[elgenon]

19 hours ago, Bogbrush said:

A tourist needs 50k, an OA needs 100k, both to cover the visa/extension validity. Thai company requirement fell away 1st Oct - Specific Covid cover not mentioned any more, it seems.

In another thread I was told my Medicare Advantage coverage wouldn't work because it doesn't explicitly say it covers Covid. But you are saying it would work? It covers any trip to the hospital with no limit. Would the no limit be a problem because it doesn't say $50,000?

[Salerno]

1 minute ago, elgenon said:

In another thread I was told my Medicare Advantage coverage wouldn't work because it doesn't explicitly say it covers Covid.

An insurance policy, with coverage clearly identified as no less than US$50,000, which should cover the cost of the treatment and other medical expenses associated with being infected with COVID-19, including in-patient hospitalisation for the whole duration in Thailand. 

 

Point 4 https://www.tatnews.org/2021/10/quarantine-free-thailand-reopening-for-vaccinated-tourists-from-1-november-2021/

[elgenon]

18 hours ago, Sheryl said:

It was never required that COVID insurance be from a Thai company.

 

Yes and Yes.

Hi Sheryl, I need you to give me your opinion. Would a Medicare Advantage insurance work. It covers any foreign hospital visit with no limit. Thanks

[elgenon]

12 minutes ago, Salerno said:

An insurance policy, with coverage clearly identified as no less than US$50,000, which should cover the cost of the treatment and other medical expenses associated with being infected with COVID-19, including in-patient hospitalisation for the whole duration in Thailand. 

 

Point 4 https://www.tatnews.org/2021/10/quarantine-free-thailand-reopening-for-vaccinated-tourists-from-1-november-2021/

Sorry, I don't see point 4. But I copied your quote

[Salerno]

11 minutes ago, elgenon said:

Sorry, I don't see point 4. But I copied your quote

Well that sucks, just had a look and the tab I have open in the background is now totally different if you go to it now? Replaced details with dumb infographics.

 

This is what used to be on that URL (click to expand then click again so you can read it):

 

Edited November 7, 2021 by Salerno

[HashBrownHarry]

10 hours ago, JetsetBkk said:

After arriving at the hospital in agony in an ambulance, they diagnosed kidney stones and gave me drugs to help kill the pain. They wanted payment before they would operate. I showed them my bank passbook but obviously they didn't trust the farang. I had get a taxi to the bank to withdraw a load of cash.

 

Then they operated.

Private hospitals are a business, not a charity.

 

I had a bad had injury and could not sign all the consent forms in the hospital, they have one of those ink pads ready to take finger prints so they're well prepared for all scenarios.

[DoctorB]

59 minutes ago, Pattaya Spotter said:

Thailand doesn't issue retirement visas...only yearly extensions of stay in the country for those who meet certain requirements. 

Eh?? Then how do you define the longterm O-A and O-X visas obtainable from overseas embassies and consulates, and available only to the over 50s? Try reading the original article. It makes the distinction between the O-A, O-X visas and the in-country extension to the non-immigrant O quite clear. These are the visas with the stringent health insurance requirements, preferrably from the approved list of Thai companies.

[Lemsta69]

4 hours ago, sirineou said:

Why do people always say the"if you don't like the barely contained chaos why did you bother moving there in the first place? "

The answer should be obvious and a bit different for everyone. 

I thought I would like it but I don't

I like it then. but I don't like it now.

I am here because my wife is from here and I love her, 

It was nice but they change it.

Etc etc

Good luck when you retire here, we need someone to come and teach us how to play the game. 

PS: if you are a light sleeper bring earplugs, or perhaps you can stuff some dollar bills in your ears, LOL 

 

 

well no, the answer's not obvious that's why I asked. thanks for explaining it so succinctly (not being sarcastic). that helps me understand the mindset a bit better.

 

as for earplugs, mate I'm not jumping in eyes wide shut, been holidaying in Thailand since 1997 and have been up and down the country so I know it reasonably well and also know the changes you're referring to as I've seen them myself. it is what it is, adapt or die.

[BritManToo]

10 hours ago, JetsetBkk said:

I had get a taxi to the bank to withdraw a load of cash.

If only you had the banking phone app installed on your smart phone.

[BritManToo]

3 hours ago, Chad3000 said:

When the IO wants one more copy or you added photos vertical not horizontal or did not include a document she wants or sends you on some other goose chase money can't fix that.

Obviously the money you paid your agent can fix that.