Water tower v Generator v Solar

[TimF]

Hello All and Happy New Year

 

I live in a rural location and have been considering building a water tower, however the whole thing got me thinking - perhaps it better to have a generator or solar power (because I would get water and electric) and I wondered if anyone had explored these and could let me have their thoughts/observations

 

My own thoughts are

Water tower - would only give me water (in a power cut) no electric and at 5m high the pressure would only be 1 bar so not particularly powerful. Other negatives I can think of are maintenance of the tower and Legionella

 

With a generator or solar I would get water and electric during a power cut - so this seems a better option

 

Has anyone built a water tower and if so what was approx cost and do you think it was worth it (I can happily live with bottled water and a couple of dustbins full of water for a few hours until power is restored)?

 

Has anyone got a generator or solar and if so what sort of cost was it (and maintenance issues/costs) and do you think it was worth it?

 

I would really appreciate anyone's experience with any of the 3 options

 

Kind regards

Tim 

[jvs]

20 minutes ago, TimF said:

With a generator or solar I would get water and electric during a power cut - so this seems a better option

Only when the sun is out of course,only around 12 hours per day.We have a solar system to irrigate the garden and it works just fine.Using it for five years now and zero maintenance cost,we just clean the panels when they get very dusty.

 

[Crossy]

1 hour ago, jvs said:

Only when the sun is out of course,

 

Except if you go hybrid solar (with batteries) in which case you can get power any time.

[TimF]

I guess what I am trying to establish is 

 

1) Water tower = seems fairly pointless (if power cut is 2 or so hours)

2) Generator would be better as it could provide electric and therefore water pump would work as well as microwave etc

3) same as 2 above

 

But what are others thoughts and what are the cost comparisons - it could be that solar is way too expensive or that generators are loads of hassle with maintenance - I think I have established that water towers (for me) would be of little value but possibly 50k Baht for a 5m scaffold style tower which would only produce a dribble of 0.5 bar water

 

I welcome any more comments

 

Kind regards

Tim

 

 

 

[sometimewoodworker]

Our house has a ready use tank in the clear story so it is a minimum of 3 metres above all showers and more than that above some outlets, the pipes are 32mm PP-R and virtually all bends are 45 degrees, to reduce friction and turbulence losses.

 

This means that we never have the supply cut. The flow and pressure is of course less than when the pump is on, however there is no way of predicting when the power will be cut.

 

The showers still function, at low pressure sure but they still work, the toilets fill, washing up is still possible. 
 

Previously we only had water when we had power, the current setup is so much more convenient.

 

If I were to build again I would absolutely have the same setup again or possibly put the tank higher.

 

FWIW we have roughly 8,500 litres of water storage so even if we continue to do washing 5 times a week we have at least 6 weeks of water so when the water supply was cut for a fortnight we only found out 10 days after it was cutoff when a neighbour asked what problems we had with no water and they were extremely surprised when we said none and we didn’t even know there was a water cut.

 

So in short build the tower and make sure all your supply pipes are at least 1” to 1 ½” 

 

NOTE. The size of pipes used in the house can usefully be quite a bit bigger than the inlet and outlet of your pump. This is an excellent example.

[In the jungle]

At 5 metres your water pressure from the water tower would be 0.5 Bar less pressure losses in the pipework thereafter.

 

I have a water tower you can have for free.  It's 8 metres tall and made from concrete ????  I discontinued using it because the water pressure is feeble, power cuts here are generally less than half an hour and I don't want the liability of people working at 8 metres height on maintenance and repair.

 

In your situation I think I would either go for a generator or buy candles and torches.  Bear in mind that a generator would have particular maintainance requirements by virtue of infrequent use.  Also bear in mind that if you use a generator you must not backfeed power into the electricity grid.  Imagine some poor soul up a ladder trying to fix the problem and you are pumping power into the system.

 

I went for the candles and torches option. 

[sometimewoodworker]

4 minutes ago, In the jungle said:

I have a water tower you can have for free.  It's 8 metres tall and made from concrete ????  I discontinued using it because the water pressure is feeble

If the pressure is that bad then it’s your supply pipes that are badly undersized or have poor routing.

If our ready use tank were that high up we would have virtually full power showers.

[In the jungle]

2 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

If the pressure is that bad then it’s your supply pipes that are badly undersized or have poor routing.

Wrong.  Pressure is determined by the height of the tank less pressure losses in the system downstream.

 

It is basic physics.

[sometimewoodworker]

1 minute ago, In the jungle said:

Wrong.  Pressure is determined by the height of the tank less pressure losses in the system downstream.

 

It is basic physics.

Pressure or flow, it isn’t really that important, the point is that your supply pipes from the tank are too small or badly routed so you have significantly high losses from friction and turbulence.

 

A water tank at 8 metres with good plumbing will give amply strong showers. If yours didn’t QED your plumbing was causing the problem.

[In the jungle]

1 minute ago, sometimewoodworker said:

Pressure or flow, it isn’t really that important, the point is that your supply pipes from the tank are too small or badly routed so you have significantly high losses from friction and turbulence.

 

A water tank at 8 metres with good plumbing will give amply strong showers. If yours didn’t QED your plumbing was causing the problem.

The OP and I are talking about a system without a pump.  Gravity feed only.

 

The only way what you say makes sense is if you are talking about a pumped system.

[sometimewoodworker]

1 minute ago, In the jungle said:

The OP and I are talking about a system without a pump.  Gravity feed only.

 

The only way what you say makes sense is if you are talking about a pumped system.

You may be the OP hasn’t said that he is, in fact if you read carefully it would only be gravity feed when there is a power cut.

 

You clearly have a poor understanding of the possibilities of plumbing if you think that having a high level tank means that you can’t/shouldn’t  also have a pump and that that the supply pipe size and routing is only relevant with a pumped system. 
 

The larger diameter pipes and smooth routing are far more important when there is no power. Pumped or not makes a difference to the losses but they are usually only noticed when there is no pump.

 

If your system was supposed to be pure gravity feed then your supply pipes should have been better designed and sized.

 

 

[JAS21]

27 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

You may be the OP hasn’t said that he is, in fact if you read carefully it would only be gravity feed when there is a power cut.

 

You clearly have a poor understanding of the possibilities of plumbing if you think that having a high level tank means that you can’t/shouldn’t  also have a pump and that that the supply pipe size and routing is only relevant with a pumped system. 
 

The larger diameter pipes and smooth routing are far more important when there is no power. Pumped or not makes a difference to the losses but they are usually only noticed when there is no pump.

 

If your system was supposed to be pure gravity feed then your supply pipes should have been better designed and sized.

 

 

Mr STWW is of course correct in that if you can maintain 0.8 Bar at the shower head then you can have a reasonable shower… provided of course you use a suitable shower head. 
 

Think of the UK system where the head tank in the loft sits on top of the hot water tank. 

[In the jungle]

18 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

You may be the OP hasn’t said that he is, in fact if you read carefully it would only be gravity feed when there is a power cut.

 

You clearly have a poor understanding of the possibilities of plumbing if you think that having a high level tank means that you can’t/shouldn’t  also have a pump and that that the supply pipe size and routing is only relevant with a pumped system. 
 

The larger diameter pipes and smooth routing are far more important when there is no power. Pumped or not makes a difference to the losses but they are usually only noticed when there is no pump.

 

If your system was supposed to be pure gravity feed then your supply pipes should have been better designed and sized.

 

 

Yes.  I know all that.

 

I was talking about the performance of the system under gravity feed.  If you look at my earlier posts I made specific reference to the performance of the downstream system in my second post before you chipped in.

 

The OP is interested in what happens in a power cut.

 

I know all about pipe diameters, the angle of the bend and yada yada yada.

 

Try addressing the OP's question.  Performance when there is no electrical power.

 

 

[In the jungle]

4 minutes ago, JAS21 said:

Mr STWW is of course correct in that if you can maintain 0.8 Bar at the shower head then you can have a reasonable shower… provided of course you use a suitable shower head. 

Well you could have 0.8 Bar at the shower head in a power cut if the tank was maybe 9 metres above the shower head; which his tank almost certainly isn't.

[Adumbration]

Water tower is a waster of time.  You need a ridiculous amount of height to get a decent head.

[Saanim]

The OP does not say much about power outage. If it is not very often and long lasting, why to go for much precautions? Just the normal system with a storage tank and automatic pressure pump. For short and not so frequent outages a larger bucket 50 - 100 L should be enough.

[Swiss1960]

@TimF: I had a well and water tower built for my wife's parental home. Thais normally build water towers for two reasons:

a) The water supply from PWA is unreliable, thus the tank is for continued water supply

b) They need a lot of water for irrigation of the gardens (however big the "garden" might be), thus saving money.

 

We spent around 20K (can't remember exactly), all included. Main cost was the tank itself, the pumps (one for the well, the other to the house as there was none before). VERY important is to put the tank in shadow / build sun protection around the tank, to protect both the tank and the water quality it it stays in there to long.

 

If you have reliable power supply (reliable meaning few hours of cut every few months like I have here in my village), then I would not bother with either generator or solar, it is not worth it, except if you have a HUGE number of electric stuff that NEED running all day/night long. 

[sometimewoodworker]

9 hours ago, In the jungle said:

I was talking about the performance of the system under gravity feed. 

Indeed, and with a much lower head than you have (at 3 metres) 

we get usable flow during a power cut. So with the 8 meters you had/have yours should have been more than adequate. If it wasn’t then as I said your supply pipes caused that.

 

Of course neither would match a pumped system but they are not intended to.

 

 

[sometimewoodworker]

10 hours ago, In the jungle said:

Well you could have 0.8 Bar at the shower head in a power cut if the tank was maybe 9 metres above the shower head; which his tank almost certainly isn't.

As I mentioned my maximum during a power cut is 0.3~0.4 Bar, more importantly all the pipes are 32mm up to the outlets and virtually all bends are 45 degrees so friction and turbulence losses are small.
 

This means that we have walking water during power cuts and have no need for any stand by tanks and as it is plumbed we don’t need to take any action. Sure the heaters turn off but that doesn’t stop the water flow mid shower, obviously  since the supply pressure drops from 4 bar to 0.3 bar the flow drops, but as designed it doesn’t stop. So all in all it functions well enough and as expected when it was designed in the house planning. Would an 8 metre tank be better? Of course, but it would have needed a separate structure. As is the tank location is built into the house.

 

living in the boonies we get frequent power cuts, so designed for them. My usual cooking is on an induction hob, beside it is a gas hob so little difference and no inconvenience. 

[In the jungle]

1 hour ago, sometimewoodworker said:

As I mentioned my maximum during a power cut is 0.3~0.4 Bar, more importantly all the pipes are 32mm up to the outlets and virtually all bends are 45 degrees so friction and turbulence losses are small.
 

This means that we have walking water during power cuts and have no need for any stand by tanks and as it is plumbed we don’t need to take any action. Sure the heaters turn off but that doesn’t stop the water flow mid shower, obviously  since the supply pressure drops from 4 bar to 0.3 bar the flow drops, but as designed it doesn’t stop. So all in all it functions well enough and as expected when it was designed in the house planning. Would an 8 metre tank be better? Of course, but it would have needed a separate structure. As is the tank location is built into the house.

 

living in the boonies we get frequent power cuts, so designed for them. My usual cooking is on an induction hob, beside it is a gas hob so little difference and no inconvenience. 

I think where we differ is in what we consider reasonable flow and pressure.  I think we can both agree that 4 Bar is reasonable pressure.  I run my system at that pressure as do you.  Is 0.3/0.4 Bar or even 0.8 Bar reasonable during a power cut?  You say yes.  My view is no, as in not worth bothering putting a system in place to achieve that result, but my view is influenced by the fact that power cuts here are generally of short duration.

 

 

[sometimewoodworker]

3 hours ago, In the jungle said:

My view is no, as in not worth bothering putting a system in place to achieve that result, but my view is influenced by the fact that power cuts here are generally of short duration.

Incidentally we are currently over an hour into a power cut of unknown duration, I have just shut down my computer to preserve power from the UPS for the router and Wi-Fi.

 

The system I designed into the house had minimal effect on costs, no effect on the difficulty of construction, requires no maintenance and just works.

 

The question of retrofitting into an existing build where it’s a significant expense and requires re plumbing is very different from the question of building it in from the start. 
 

In a new build in an area where power cuts are not extremely rare it’s a no brainier. It avoids having to keep random buckets of water around and remembering to keep them full.