ICE vs EV, the debate thread

[vinny41]

1 hour ago, Yellowtail said:

       

You wouldn't want to be a person that buys at launch

When MG ZS EV was launched in June 2019 price was B1,190,000

 MG ZS EV, 100% electric car: 1,190,000 baht

 

https://www.headlightmag.com/offcial-photo-mg-zs-ev-thailand/

[Pib]

3 hours ago, KhunLA said:

If you mean charging at home, yes, some is lost, but I also used ฿5/kWh/unit, which I don't think any homeowner is charged, unless really abusing the AC for a large house.

 

Well, if you are a home owner who runs a one large A/C 24/7 to cool the downstairs of a house and another large A/C 12/7 (night use only) to cool the upstairs of a house along with a couple of refrigerators, TVs, routers, water pump, water heater, charging for an EV,  etc., you can easily use close to 2000KWH per month....PEA will charge a person Bt10,113 for those 2,000KWH which works out to B5.05 per KWH...an that with the low Ft now of only Bt0.3972/KWH.   

 

And lets say a person only used 1000KWH per month...the cost would be Bt4957 which works out to Bt4.96/KWH.

 

Using a Bt5KWH is an accurate figure for many house hold a...this includes the the basic rate, Ft, meter fee, and taxes....the total cost.   Additionally, there are charging losses of around 10%...so it takes about 1.1KWH of energy feed into the EV for 1.0KWH to make it's way into the battery....this means it really costs around Bt5.5KWH on each 1KWH that makes it into the battery.

 

https://eservice.pea.co.th/EstimateBill/#

 

Using 2,000KWH per month cost

 

 

Using 1000KWH per month cost

Edited August 18 by Pib

[KhunLA]

20 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

You wouldn't want to be a person that buys at launch

When MG ZS EV was launched in June 2019 price was B1,190,000

 MG ZS EV, 100% electric car: 1,190,000 baht

 

https://www.headlightmag.com/offcial-photo-mg-zs-ev-thailand/

Wouldn't have bought the EV version if the govt didn't pay me ฿240k to buy it.  As was very happy with the ICE version of the ZS.

 

Having solar contracted to be added to the house, also was a motivator.  ฿240k & solar, hard not to get the EV, even though taking a small hit on selling the 2 yr old ICE version, with only 40k kms on it.

[atpeace]

4 hours ago, KhunLA said:

If looking for a new car, now is a great time to buy, ICE or EV, as one hell of a price war going on in TH.

 

Highly recommend you check out the MG promotions on MG site.  Need to click on promotions, as the site doesn't show the prices on front page, when selecting car model ... kind of strange.

 

Everything listed, I'd definitely take over any comparable JP badged POS made in TH.

 

Goes for BYD, GWM, NETA ... JP is falling so far behind with their junk, mind boggling.   Still riding that old fake dependably reputation that died a long time ago ...  IMHO

 

When the tires fall your car, does make you wonder 

 

Strange the promo for MG4 is actually up ฿10k from last promo.

 

What about swapping a used ICE car for a used EV? My Ice has been great but I hardly use it.

 

It seems you can pickup a decent MG or Neta 2020-2021 for about 350k.  I don't drive much like yourself and mostly my car just sits for weeks between drives.   I'm cheap but only if it makes financial sense 🙂   Hard  for me to rationalize a new car.

 

If I had an EV and could slow charge with my new panels install(7.7 KW) then I might get out more and explore or at least drive 28k into Phibun ( small town with Lotus, Big C, running track) more often.  It would be free vs around 220 baht using my Vigo. I know -only 220 baht but I usually jump on the scooter to save the 220 baht which is dangerous at night when coming back home after running on the track and shopping. 

[KhunLA]

35 minutes ago, atpeace said:

If I had an EV and could slow charge with my new panels install(7.7 KW) then I might get out more and explore or at least drive 28k into Phibun ( small town with Lotus, Big C, running track) more often.  It would be free vs around 220 baht using my Vigo. I know -only 220 baht but I usually jump on the scooter to save the 220 baht which is dangerous at night when coming back home after running on the track and shopping. 

That's another reason we like the EV, as it gets us out of the house me.   We'll go check out a new restaurant or coffee shop with a view, just for the hell of it.  Up to 100 kms way, since it doesn't cost anything.

 

With an ICEV, the petrol cost more than the meal or coffee & Danish.  

 

Our first year of owning the EV, we racked up 20k kms, half of that was away from home, needing hotels & charging station.  The other half was local, with more than half of that, 6k kms, exploring locally, away from the house, 50-125 kms away.

 

Even our local daily driving is a bit unnecessary, as I simply drive the dog to the park or surf, only 4 & 5 kms away.   I could just walk her down the soi.   We live out 5 minutes away from everything we need.  Once a week or 2 weeks to stock up would be sufficient.   Since it doesn't cost anything, we're out & about a lot.

 

If you could find something you like, or just sell the ICEV, and pick up a new NETA V, that would work, if in the budget.   I'm not a fan of used.   But sure lots of folks are upgrading, since a lot more & better options are available now than 2 yrs ago.  Many with low kms, and little to no battery degradation.  Ours had a <0.6%, as I calculated it at, basically nothing, after the first 14 months.

 

BYD Atto 3 was the only thing (SUV) hitting the market when we got our MG ZS.  Now there's a bunch of choices, sedans that is.

Edited August 18 by KhunLA

[atpeace]

3 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

That's another reason we like the EV, as it gets us out of the house me.   We'll go check out a new restaurant or coffee shop with a view, just for the hell of it.  Up to 100 kms way, since it doesn't cost anything.

 

With an ICEV, the petrol cost more than the meal or coffee & Danish.  

 

Our first year of owning the EV, we racked up 20k kms, half of that was away from home, needing hotels & charging station.  The other half was local, with more than half of that, 6k kms, exploring locally, away from the house, 50-100 kms away.

 

Even our local daily driving is a bit unnecessary, as I simply drive the dog to the park or surf, only 4 & 5 kms away.   I could just walk her down the soi.   We live out 5 minutes away from everything we need.  Once a week or 2 weeks to stock up would be sufficient.   Since it doesn't cost anything, we're out & about a lot.

 

If you could find something you like, or just sell the ICEV, and pick up a new NETA V, that would work, if in the budget.   I'm not a fan of used.   But sure lots of folks are upgrading, since a lot more & better options are available now than 2 yrs ago.  Many with low kms, and little to no battery degradation.  Ours had a <0.6%, as I calculated it at, basically nothing, after the first 14 months.

 

BYD Atto 3 was the only thing (SUV) hitting the market when we got our MG ZS.  Now there's a bunch of choices, sedans that is.

All makes sense and I definitely would get out more if it was free basically.  I still can't justify new because I drive so little and I don't see it as adding risk.  I'm already driving a used ICE which could have issues also in the future. 

 

There is always the battery risk but if I am only spending 350 and the odds are I will be OK even if I get a lemon and the battery is at 80% of its original value.  It would provide probably another 5 years considering my needs and probably many more.

 

Sometimes you just have to roll the dice without knowing the exact probability of your desired outcome 🙂  I have the spare money so why not have some fun.

[vinny41]

1 hour ago, atpeace said:

What about swapping a used ICE car for a used EV? My Ice has been great but I hardly use it.

 

It seems you can pickup a decent MG or Neta 2020-2021 for about 350k.  I don't drive much like yourself and mostly my car just sits for weeks between drives.   I'm cheap but only if it makes financial sense 🙂   Hard  for me to rationalize a new car.

 

If I had an EV and could slow charge with my new panels install(7.7 KW) then I might get out more and explore or at least drive 28k into Phibun ( small town with Lotus, Big C, running track) more often.  It would be free vs around 220 baht using my Vigo. I know -only 220 baht but I usually jump on the scooter to save the 220 baht which is dangerous at night when coming back home after running on the track and shopping. 

If you interested in brand new neta v suggest you look at the neta ev facebook groups some dealers offering brand new at B372K

There are people looking to sell their neta V because they want to upgrade to neta x one year old cars prices start from around B210K

19Km 

https://autolifethailand.tv/special-discount-official-price-neta-v-ev-thailand-july2024/

Edited August 18 by vinny41
add

[atpeace]

21 hours ago, vinny41 said:

If you interested in brand new neta v suggest you look at the neta ev facebook groups some dealers offering brand new at B372K

There are people looking to sell their neta V because they want to upgrade to neta x one year old cars prices start from around B210K

19Km 

https://autolifethailand.tv/special-discount-official-price-neta-v-ev-thailand-july2024/

Anyone trade in their ICE to get an EV.  My ICE (2012 Prerunner ) has only 95K and runs great but catching the EV bug and don't want to hassle with selling the Prerunner.   

 

I sent back 25 units back to the grid today and the conditions weren't ideal.  Basically 99% of my driving would be free if I had an EV minus maintenance. I turned off the export function this evening because I don't want to worry about unexpected consequences.  It would be nice to send the extra power somewhere.

 

 

[Yellowtail]

1 minute ago, atpeace said:

Anyone trade in their ICE to get an EV.  My ICE (2012 Prerunner ) has only 95K and runs great but catching the EV bug and don't want to hassle with selling the Prerunner.   

 

I sent back 25 units back to the grid today and the conditions weren't ideal.  Basically 99% of my driving would be free if I had an EV minus maintenance. I turned off the export function this evening because I don't want to worry about unexpected consequences.  It would be nice to send the extra power somewhere.

 

 

What do you want for the Prerunner? 

2 or 4 door? 

 

Auto or manual? 

[atpeace]

57 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

What do you want for the Prerunner? 

2 or 4 door? 

 

Auto or manual? 

I have no idea.  It is extended cab automatic.  Just thinking about selling at this point and not ready.  We used it to put a camper on during Covid and now it is rarely used.  I just grabbed the Bluebook and it states 2010 -555.  It is great but we sold the camper and no need for a truck anymore.

Edited August 19 by atpeace

[KhunLA]

1 hour ago, atpeace said:

Anyone trade in their ICE to get an EV.  My ICE (2012 Prerunner ) has only 95K and runs great but catching the EV bug and don't want to hassle with selling the Prerunner.   

 

I sent back 25 units back to the grid today and the conditions weren't ideal.  Basically 99% of my driving would be free if I had an EV minus maintenance. I turned off the export function this evening because I don't want to worry about unexpected consequences.  It would be nice to send the extra power somewhere.

25kWh ... that's more than half our EV's battery, or about 200 kms of driving 

 

About ฿545 worth of petrol if getting 13.2 kms per Liter with your PreRunner.

(200 ÷ 13.2 X ฿36 = ฿545)

 

from FaceBook marketplace

 

Edited August 19 by KhunLA

[atpeace]

6 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

25kWh ... that's more than half our EV's battery, or about 200 kms of driving 

 

About ฿545 worth of petrol if getting 13.2 kms per Liter with your PreRunner.

(200 ÷ 13.2 X ฿36 = ฿545)

 

from FaceBook marketplace

Thanks! Never traded in a car so don't have a clue but assume I would get much lower than the above.  It does have only 90k I think.  

[KhunLA]

8 minutes ago, atpeace said:

Thanks! Never traded in a car so don't have a clue but assume I would get much lower than the above.  It does have only 90k I think.  

They were private sales, I think.  Yours have lower kms than all I saw.   Saw couple on one2car, or whatever that site is, for 300+K

 

Some of the private sales were at the 300+k mark also.

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/106581732707976/search?query=2012 toyota prerunner

 

We trading in our 1 Vios, and 2nd hand folks gave us a decent price, like 10% about insured value.

 

2nd Vios, had to people bidding on it, don't know why they wanted, but got a good price for that.

 

Mazda 2 nobody wanted it, so gave it to daughter, who squeezed 3+ years out of it, before it started crapping out, with <200k kms on it.  She was happy to get 70k for it.

Edited August 19 by KhunLA

[atpeace]

1 minute ago, KhunLA said:

They were private sales, I think.  Yours have lower kms that all I saw.   Saw couple on one2car, or whatever that site is, for 300+K

 

Some of the private sales were at the 300k mark also.

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/106581732707976/search?query=2012 toyota prerunner

What model MG and year do you have?  What is your conservative estimate of HWY range? 

 

 

[KhunLA]

8 minutes ago, atpeace said:

What model MG and year do you have?  What is your conservative estimate of HWY range? 

2022 MG ZS D model

 

Had the ICE version before that, and got low market price for it.  Only 2 yrs old & 40k kms.  2nd  hand folks offered 400k, think that was insured value or 390k.   Rather sell to a private person, and did get 400k for it.   Quick sale (motivated seller ), and buyers market (covid), along with smalls-ville market.  450k was the high end market price 

 

Someone from Hua Hin bought it, 100 kms away.  Which is where we bought the EV version anyway, as local MG dealer wasn't here yet.  Opened about a year later.

Edited August 19 by KhunLA

[atpeace]

Just checked the car book and it's a 2010 - oops.  I'm not too concerned about getting top dollar.  I would probably sell it at steep discount 180-200k would be fine.

 

Can you charge at hotels?  When we travel we like to take our time and usually stay a couple nights at hotels we like before our next leg.  Granny charging at hotels if possible would be perfect.

[atpeace]

29 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

25kWh ... that's more than half our EV's battery, or about 200 kms of driving 

 

About ฿545 worth of petrol if getting 13.2 kms per Liter with your PreRunner.

(200 ÷ 13.2 X ฿36 = ฿545)

 

from FaceBook marketplace

 

309K! That is amazing.  Assume the warranty is transferable.

• 5-Year or 150,000 km vehicle factory warranty (whichever comes first)^[6]
• 8-Year or 180,000 km electric motor and HV battery warranty (whichever comes first)^[7]

[KhunLA]

31 minutes ago, atpeace said:

What model MG and year do you have?  What is your conservative estimate of HWY range? 

We charge up at the 250-275 kms mark.  Depending where and how long in the car already.  Have taken to 325, but didn't leave much for margin of error, like 18% left.

 

And damn if the one station was inop.  Just went to the next one down the road, and think it was 12% left.  That was a bit scary, and won't make that mistake again.

 

275 is 3-4 hours in the car, and we really need a break by then.  Long drives are days past with me, and impossible with the wife & dog.  Even I want out after 3 hours.  Usually hungry and or got to P anyway.

 

I use to drive a truck, have done 20 hrs, took a nap, and returned for 20 more.

 

ZS has a 46.3kWh (usable) battery of 50.3kWh, 

NEDC range 403, very rare to get that

WLTP RANGE 320, constantly exceed that.

360 per charge is about average, but like 50-75kms reserve, at least.  We go pretty rural when O&A.

 

More than enough stations for most not to even think about charging.  Only if you go way off the beaten track, may need to plan a bit.

Edited August 19 by KhunLA

[KhunLA]

9 minutes ago, atpeace said:

309K! That is amazing.  Assume the warranty is transferable.

• 5-Year or 150,000 km vehicle factory warranty (whichever comes first)^[6]
• 8-Year or 180,000 km electric motor and HV battery warranty (whichever comes first)^[7]

They still had a few new ones from CH, listed for 409k, and I'm like  ... 'honey...."

She's like ... 'WTF ... you nuts.  What you going to do with 2 cars?'

 

Something wrong with me, I collect sh!t ...   I had 30 drones at one time, 5 of them, I built from scratch, before they started selling nicer ones for less, so then I bought a bunch of them 😎

 

In the USA, it was firearms 🙄

I apparently have issues.

Edited August 19 by KhunLA

[atpeace]

12 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

They still had a few new ones from CH, listed for 409k, and I'm like  ... 'honey...."

She's like ... 'WTF ... you nuts.  What you going to do with 2 cars?'

 

Something wrong with me, I collect sh!t ...   I had 30 drones at one time, 5 of them, I built from scratch, before the started selling nicer ones for less, so then I bought a bunch of them 😎

 

In the USA, it was firearms 🙄

I apparently have issues.

It seems too good to be true 🙂 I could buy  the Neta above for 309k with  100k still remaining on the battery warranty.  Am I missing something???? 🙂 My wife's sister has one a couple doors down.   I'll go check it out.  She loves it.  I have only glanced at it  It is bland but I could get over the looks 🙂

Edited August 19 by atpeace

[atpeace]

15 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

We charge up at the 250-275 kms mark.  Depending where and how long in the car already.  Have taken to 325, but didn't leave much for margin of error, like 18% left.

 

And damn if the one station was inop.  Just went to the next one down the road, and think it was 12% left.  That was a bit scary, and won't make that mistake again.

 

275 is 3-4 hours in the car, and we really need a break by then.  Long drives are days past we me, and impossible with the wife & dog.  Even I want out after 3 hours.  Usually hungry and or got to P anyway.

 

ZS has a 46.3kWh (usable) battery of 50.3kWh, 

NEDC range 403, very rare to get that

WLTP RANGE 320, constantly exceed that.

360 per charge is about average, but like 50-75kms reserve, at least.  We go pretty rural when O&A.

 

Most than enough stations for most not even to think about charging.  Only if you go way off the beaten track, may need to plan a bit.

Big help - Thanks.  Heading to America next month so thinking I should wait but at these prices it is hard not to just go for it.

[KhunLA]

8 minutes ago, atpeace said:

It seems too good to be true 🙂 I could buy  the Neta above for 309k with  100k still remaining on the battery warranty.  Am I missing something???? 🙂 My wife's sister has one a couple doors down.   I'll go check it out.  She loves it.  I have only glanced at it  It is bland but I could get over the looks 🙂

Too cool.   See if you can borrow it for a hour or 2, and take a cruise.   Lots or people have insurance for non dedicated drivers.  I think I do, and always have.

 

I've only seen them at charging stations, lots of them, as Neta V & Atto 3 seem to be the most we see.

 

Daughter wasn't impressed with it, but she's driven ours.   She went with the Atto 3, and minor styling difference aside, and they're , ZS & A3 are pretty much the same. 

[Gweiloman]

4 hours ago, atpeace said:

Anyone trade in their ICE to get an EV.  My ICE (2012 Prerunner ) has only 95K and runs great but catching the EV bug and don't want to hassle with selling the Prerunner.   

 

I sent back 25 units back to the grid today and the conditions weren't ideal.  Basically 99% of my driving would be free if I had an EV minus maintenance. I turned off the export function this evening because I don't want to worry about unexpected consequences.  It would be nice to send the extra power somewhere.

 

 

If you’re in CM, I would gladly take those units off you at no charge.

[Pib]

On 7/29/2024 at 8:39 AM, Gweiloman said:

 

 

Had the Rat Guard installation done on my Atto today along with having the 12 month/20,000Km scheduled maintenance checkup.  The checkup done a little early at 10 months/19,200km....I asked to have the checkup done a little early since I was having the Rat Guard installation done today...kill two birds with one stone....the dealership didn't have a problem with the early checkup since I was within 1,000km of the 20,000km checkup point.   The Rat Guard installation and checkup took a total of 1 hr 45 min.  All free.   Done at my local BYD dealership.

 

 

[Pib]

Deleted...replaced with below post.

 

Edited August 21 by Pib

[Pib]

On 5/26/2024 at 9:41 AM, transam said:

Read this article today about an EV owner not being a happy bunny because his tyres wore out in just 7,500 miles on his brand new 35,000 quid hot-hatch VW.......😱

 

I would probably be p_ssed off too, but should he complain when he is saving so much on fuel....?

Has any EV owner here suffered the same short life tyres.....?  🤔

 

https://uk.yahoo.com/finance/news/electric-hatchback-heavy-jeep-needed-110200681.html

 

On 5/26/2024 at 10:16 AM, Pib said:

 

Below are pictures of one of my factory tires on my BYD Atto EV which has 13,253Km (8,216 miles) on it....took the pictures a few minutes ago....still looks pretty much like new....all 4 tires on front and rear show the same amount of wear (i.e., very little).  And in the 2nd snapshot you'll see the wear indicator...these tires will probably last for 60 to 80K km.  

 

And as nice to know, under the BYD 8 yr/160K Km warranty they rotate the tires every 20K km for free during each 20K Km free warranty checkup.  I would prefer every 10K km like how I did on my Toyota Fortuner but my Atto has a pressure monitor system that the BYD dealership needs to remarry to each tire after a tire rotation so I'll just go with the BYD freebie tire rotation every 20K km vs the 10K km I do with my Fortuner.   This will also give me the chance to do a real world test to see if there is any significant advantage to rotating tires every 20K km vs 10K km....I'm sure there is some advantage every 10K km but it may not be that significant.

 

 

 

 

 

Above posts related to EV tire wear....where one person claimed his EV tires wore out after 7,500 miles (12,070km) and where I showed my 2023 Atto 3 EV tire wear after 7 months with 8,216 miles (13,253km) 

 

Below are some updated tire wear pictures of my Atto tires after 10 months 11,930 miles (19,200km).   Still showing little wear....as I mentioned in my earlier post the tires will probably last 60-80K kilometers.

 

 

 

 

[KhunLA]

If or when the BEV ever dies .... nothing goes to waste.   Add to the Solar system.

 

Here's a couple lithium drone batteries repurposed as a power bank ... 

 

 

[JBChiangRai]

54 minutes ago, Pib said:

 

 

 

Above posts related to EV tire wear....where one person claimed his EV tires wore out after 7,500 miles (12,070km) and where I showed my 2023 Atto 3 EV tire wear after 7 months with 8,216 miles (13,253km) 

 

Below are some updated tire wear pictures of my Atto tires after 10 months 11,930 miles (19,200km).   Still showing little wear....as I mentioned in my earlier post the tires will probably last 60-80K kilometers.

 

 

 

 

Years ago I bought a new Honda NSX. I got about 5,000 miles out of the first set of Tyres. I was told that was normal for the standard Yokohama Tyres.  I switched over to Toyo Tyres and got around double, they also came with a replacement guarantee if damaged which I used twice.

 

In my experience, tyre wear is down to the hardness of the rubber compound together with how hard you drive it.

 

I will be surprised if I get more than 15,000km out of my Seal Tyres.

 

It does have wider wheels than standard and I will step up the width 2 sizes on the next set.

[ExpatOilWorker]

On 8/14/2024 at 11:33 AM, Bandersnatch said:

I often see people posting that EVs are some sort of fad and that we will all go back to driving ICE vehicles, but the data shows that is unlikely. In fact we have already passed peak ICE sales in 2018 and they have been in decline ever since

 

 

 

I’m sure many will have opinions on these graphs but remember to use data to support them

 

The EV propaganda machine is getting increasingly desperate.

In the above from the cherry 🍒 farmer we have two different vehicle definitions, happily mixed together as misinformation; EV's and electric cars.

 

In Thailand 🇹🇭 we define an EV as an 100% battery vehicle, so BEV = EV.

An electric car in the above charts are BEV + PHEV, hence fake and misleading information.

 

This is the true numbers for 2023:

Fully electric or battery electric vehicles (BEVs) accounted for 9.5 million out of the 13.6 million electric cars sold around the world in 2023, with PHEVs accounting for the rest.

[dutch boy]