ICE vs EV, the debate thread

[KhunLA]

Tesla went with Indonesia:

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-indonesia-500k-ev-factory/

[vinny41]

31 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Tesla went with Indonesia:

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-indonesia-500k-ev-factory/

Article states that Indonesia is courting Tesla ,not that its a done deal Musk will talk with both  Malaysia and Indonesia and see which county is willing to give Tesla the best deal

[tgw]

I'm 100% for ICEV ... using hydrogen.

Electric vehicles only make sense for heavy usage, such as at transport companies, taxis, etc.

[SomchaiDIY]

7 hours ago, placeholder said:

Also, the biggest EV battery manufacturer in the world, announced it has a better that can charge up to 80% in 5 minutes. Not just that, but it should be able to go about 1000 kilometers on a charge

Charge 10 to 80 % in 5 minutes for 1000km work is lot of power required for charge transfer

 

Lights in my town go low when this battery on charging

 

High volts level3 charge already at 400kw for 20 - 80 % in 15 minute

 

Maybe best locate charge station under kv line for this 5 minutes battery

 

[placeholder]

9 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

By 2050 the cars will have solar paint and will be able to run continuously. The technology already exists, but the oil companies bought the patents and quashed it. It was in a peer peer review study I saw on Vox. 

B.S.

[placeholder]

9 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

Some people are able to understand basic math. If it takes twenty minutes to charge an EV, and less than five minutes to fill an ICEV. then it will take a lot more real estate to process the same number of EVs in the same amount of time as it would ICEV. 

 

Yes, to set up a few chargers in shopping centers is pretty easy.

Another problem with your math is that you assume that there's going to be the same demand for chargers as there is for gasoline/petrol pumps. Also, that 20 minute wait time is already on the way to being a thing of the past.

[placeholder]

9 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

Have you seen a car? Obviously the vehicles take up the bulk of the area required to charge or fuel vehicles, yes? It's not really that complex is it? 

 

They will also still have have to provide bathrooms and whatnot. 

 

But I agree that far and away, most people using EVs as daily-drivers will charge at home so it is a non issue for them. 

 

The fuel tanks are underground aren't they? 

 

 

Even with the combined space of a parking lot and charger, still less space will be taken up than at a gasoline/petrol station. Next you you get your car filled up, look for the area where the tanker trucks fill the fuel tanks. You'll note that it's a long way from the pumps.

And you're still thinking along the lines that most charging will be done in the future as it has been done in the past. At dedicated stations. So, no, new bathrooms won't be required at free standing chargers, or shopping malls, or restaurants. 

[KhunLA]

7 hours ago, vinny41 said:

Article states that Indonesia is courting Tesla ,not that its a done deal Musk will talk with both  Malaysia and Indonesia and see which county is willing to give Tesla the best deal

Another article stated they signed a deal, but not allowed to post here.

 

Had reason for India, as Musk won't open a factory in any county he's not allowed to sell & service cars in now.  Here's a linK

https://indianexpress.com/article/explained/tesla-demand-to-start-engine-in-india-manufacturing-only-after-nod-for-sale-services-7941894/

 

Malaysia is still a big question mark.  Porche is opening one there, so maybe he'll just wait & see how they get along.

https://www.dsf.my/2021/06/malaysia-might-miss-out-on-teslas-1st-asean-plant-in-2024/

Thailand, possible, as Tesla has signed up to open business here.  At least sales & service, and hopefully production in the future.

https://www.thaienquirer.com/40419/tesla-thailand-officially-registered-with-3-million-baht-capital/

[Yellowtail]

4 hours ago, placeholder said:

B.S.

You started it. 

[placeholder]

1 minute ago, Yellowtail said:

You started it. 

You make a claim and can't back it up. And you follow up with something equally empty.

[Yellowtail]

4 hours ago, placeholder said:

Another problem with your math...

What were the previous problems with my math? 

 

4 hours ago, placeholder said:

...is that you assume that there's going to be the same demand for chargers as there is for gasoline/petrol pumps.

You're right. Assuming you guys (the left) have your way most poor and middleclass people will be priced out of owning a vehicle, and the rich will have much less traffic to deal with. That's the endgame, yes? 

 

4 hours ago, placeholder said:

Also, that 20 minute wait time is already on the way to being a thing of the past.

Yes, any moment now... 

[Yellowtail]

4 hours ago, placeholder said:

Even with the combined space of a parking lot and charger, still less space will be taken up than at a gasoline/petrol station. Next you you get your car filled up, look for the area where the tanker trucks fill the fuel tanks. You'll note that it's a long way from the pumps.

Only out in the boonies where the real-estate is cheap.  And cars will still use/need that area to maneuver in and out. 

 

In any event, would that not be where the electrical sub-station will have to be? 

 

4 hours ago, placeholder said:

And you're still thinking along the lines that most charging will be done in the future as it has been done in the past. At dedicated stations. So, no, new bathrooms won't be required at free standing chargers, or shopping malls, or restaurants. 

If that's the case, once all the cars are electric, will not most parking spot have to have chargers? Certainly the few that are installed now won't cut it. 

[Yellowtail]

13 minutes ago, placeholder said:

You make a claim and can't back it up. And you follow up with something equally empty.

You posted links to articles and called them peer review studies.

[placeholder]

10 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

What were the previous problems with my math? 

 

You're right. Assuming you guys (the left) have your way most poor and middleclass people will be priced out of owning a vehicle, and the rich will have much less traffic to deal with. That's the endgame, yes? 

 

Yes, any moment now... 

Your math is faulty in that you cited parking space and charger space as not saving space compared to gasoline/petrol stations.

 

As for claiming that EV prices will always be too high, is contradicted by the history of technological devices for consumers. And of course, the prices are already coming down. Just look in the threat about ev's in thailand to see for yourself.

 

As for battery charging times, CATL, the world's largest battery factory, has announced that it has a battery with a charging time of 5 minutes for an 80 percent fill that will begin to be manufactures on a mass scale in 2023. 
At 80% it should have a range greater than 400 miles.

[placeholder]

16 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

You posted links to articles and called them peer review studies.

Sometimes I post articles with links to peer reviewed studies and sometimes to the peer reviewed studies themselves. Whereas you just claimed that there was a article somewhere in Vox about a solar paint that could power articles but it was suppressed by the major auto companies.

"By 2050 the cars will have solar paint and will be able to run continuously. The technology already exists, but the oil companies bought the patents and quashed it. It was in a peer peer review study I saw on Vox. "

I called B.S. and you had nothing to back it up. Nothing. Because it is B.S. Something you invented. 

[placeholder]

24 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Only out in the boonies where the real-estate is cheap.  And cars will still use/need that area to maneuver in and out. 

 

In any event, would that not be where the electrical sub-station will have to be? 

 

If that's the case, once all the cars are electric, will not most parking spot have to have chargers? Certainly the few that are installed now won't cut it. 

Please share with me the source of your contention that an electrical substation will be necessary to service level 3 chargers.

 

No. Charging times are on the decrease already, so people will charge their cars in spaces reserved for charging and then move on out.

[KhunLA]

5 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Sometimes I post articles with links to peer reviewed studies and sometimes to the peer reviewed studies themselves. Whereas you just claimed that there was a article somewhere in Vox about a solar paint that could power articles but it was suppressed by the major auto companies.

"By 2050 the cars will have solar paint and will be able to run continuously. The technology already exists, but the oil companies bought the patents and quashed it. It was in a peer peer review study I saw on Vox. "

I called B.S. and you had nothing to back it up. Nothing. Because it is B.S. Something you invented. 

Certainly not happening anytime soon, but interesting concept.   Think they'll develop better 'solar cells' that exist now for cars, than waste time on solar paint.

 

"Solar painted vehicles. With some tweaks, solar paint could be a great way to add solar-generating capacity to vehicles."

https://www.solarreviews.com/blog/solar-paint-hydrogen-quantum-dot-perovskite-solar-cells

[placeholder]

4 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Certainly not happening anytime soon, but interesting concept.   Think they'll develop better 'solar cells' that exist now for cars, than waste time on solar paint.

 

"Solar painted vehicles. With some tweaks, solar paint could be a great way to add solar-generating capacity to vehicles."

https://www.solarreviews.com/blog/solar-paint-hydrogen-quantum-dot-perovskite-solar-cells

Perovskites are a new kind of solar "cell" that can be sprayed onto surfaces much like paint. The problem has been that they weren't very resistant to degradation. It looks like  that problem has been solved. But even at 30% efficiency, which is pretty much the best that solar cells can do, it would provide only a fraction of the current needed to continuously power an auto. Just not enough surface space on an auto.

[placeholder]

15 hours ago, vinny41 said:

And what about people that live in Condo's no charging facilites for them

Do condos provide gasoline/petrol for those who own autos? How do urban dwellers who own an auto connect their car to fuel?

And, of course, there's a lot lower rate of car ownership in urban areas than there is in the boonies.

 

[KhunLA]

15 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Perovskites are a new kind of solar "cell" that can be sprayed onto surfaces much like paint. The problem has been that they weren't very resistant to degradation. It looks like  that problem has been solved. But even at 30% efficiency, which is pretty much the best that solar cells can do, it would provide only a fraction of the current needed to continuously power an auto. Just not enough surface space on an auto.

Long distance driving, is a niche market, as few people really need to be on the road more than what the EVs provide now.

 

Development of better battery that can charge faster, under 15 minutes will be more of a priority.  Faster charging without degrading the battery is the challenge.  Heating up the batteries while charging is brutal to their lifespan.

 

Then there will be the cost for that super fast, safe charging.  1 million baht for a car is silly enough, not sure long range is going to be marketable to us common folks.  Pretty high premium to be on the roads more than I want to be in one day.

 

Must be targeted to those marathon drivers wanting to do 1000 kms legs without stopping to drain the dragon ????

[transam]

5 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Do condos provide gasoline/petrol for those who own autos? How do urban dwellers who own an auto connect their car to fuel?

And, of course, there's a lot lower rate of car ownership in urban areas than there is in the boonies.

 

I would have thought all condo owners have gas in their cars at ALL times, in fact, we all have gas in our cars at all times. ????

 

Plus, a gas station is never too far away for a 2 minute stop to top up.

 

Car ownership, I think you are guessing...????

[placeholder]

2 minutes ago, transam said:

I would have thought all condo owners have gas in their cars at ALL times, in fact, we all have gas in our cars at all times. ????

 

Plus, a gas station is never too far away for a 2 minute stop to top up.

 

Car ownership, I think you are guessing...????

I'm not sure what your point is? I do agree that ICE vehicle owners have gas in their cars at all times. I will even concede that EV owners never have gas in their cars. But why wouldn't they have charged batteries in their cars at all times?

In crowded urban areas are gas stations never far away? When you're driving a car in bangkok, given the driving conditions, just about everything is far away. And if the condos offer parking, why can't they set up some chargers? A lot easier than installing a gasoline pumps.

[placeholder]

18 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Long distance driving, is a niche market, as few people really need to be on the road more than what the EVs provide now.

 

Development of better battery that can charge faster, under 15 minutes will be more of a priority.  Faster charging without degrading the battery is the challenge.  Heating up the batteries while charging is brutal to their lifespan.

 

Then there will be the cost for that super fast, safe charging.  1 million baht for a car is silly enough, not sure long range is going to be marketable to us common folks.  Pretty high premium to be on the roads more than I want to be in one day.

 

Must be targeted to those marathon drivers wanting to do 1000 kms legs without stopping to drain the dragon ????

As noted, CATL now has a battery that can be charged to 80% in 5 minutes. There are plenty of other competitors working on charging times. So even if long distance driving did pose a problem, it won't shortly. And there are plenty of other competitors working on charging times. 

[KhunLA]

5 minutes ago, placeholder said:

As noted, CATL now has a battery that can be charged to 80% in 5 minutes. There are plenty of other competitors working on charging times. So even if long distance driving did pose a problem, it won't shortly. And there are plenty of other competitors working on charging times. 

Saw that, though I'm too impatient to wait for that to be mass produced at an affordable price.

 

I'll just have to suffer the relaxing walk with the dog, a relaxing meal after 3 or 4 hours of driving while the battery tops up at a CS, IF I even bother driving further rather than simply checking into the hotel/GH and plug in there.

 

Endure the hardship of chilling poolside and taking a swim or having a beverage & pastry on the balcony while topping up.  Buddha forbid a little 'quality' time with wife while charging up.

 

Sheer hell, and simply don't know how I'll manage ????

[SomchaiDIY]

1 hour ago, Yellowtail said:

In any event, would that not be where the electrical sub-station will have to be? 

Many station with fast charge need secondary sub station if power company check can allow

 

Many maker talk big fast charge idea but in real world maybe not easy

 

Best wait for new tech idea to arrive in real world use before using for argument

 

 

Photo secondary sub station type for ev system

 

 

 

 

Photo dream idea for 1 minute fast charge from 11kv line possible driver need safety suit

 

 

 

[transam]

48 minutes ago, placeholder said:

I'm not sure what your point is? I do agree that ICE vehicle owners have gas in their cars at all times. I will even concede that EV owners never have gas in their cars. But why wouldn't they have charged batteries in their cars at all times?

In crowded urban areas are gas stations never far away? When you're driving a car in bangkok, given the driving conditions, just about everything is far away. And if the condos offer parking, why can't they set up some chargers? A lot easier than installing a gasoline pumps.

Have you ever been in a car where the petrol tank guage needle is nudging empty, and you are praying for a gas station to show up soon, well I have a few times, now imagine your EV is nudging empty, and you can't find an electric top-up station because there are so few at this present time.

You see, I think of that sort of stuff. ????

[JetsetBkk]

Yeah, my Mustang loves EVs.

 

[transam]

7 minutes ago, JetsetBkk said:

Yeah, my Mustang loves EVs.

 

Really, well I think you maybe shown up by one in the not to distant future....????

May I ask what year and engine type your Mustang is....?  ????

[JetsetBkk]

4 minutes ago, transam said:

Really, well I think you maybe shown up by one in the not to distant future....????

May I ask what year and engine type your Mustang is....?  ????

1969 Mach 1 351 Cleveland - about 5.7 litres.

Had to leave it in England when I came here.

My pickup is not so meaty.

 

[Yellowtail]

2 hours ago, placeholder said:

Your math is faulty in that you cited parking space and charger space as not saving space compared to gasoline/petrol stations.

No, that's what you (apparently) understood. What I said was, that the vehicle takes of the bulk of the area required to charge or fuel a vehicle, and if it take twenty minutes to charge an EV and five minutes to fuel an ICEV, then it will take much more are to process the same number of EVs as it does ICEVs

 

Are you claiming that is not true? 

 

2 hours ago, placeholder said:

As for claiming that EV prices will always be too high, is contradicted by the history of technological devices for consumers. And of course, the prices are already coming down. Just look in the threat about ev's in thailand to see for yourself.

Yes, the first phone I bought was about eight dollars, the last one I bought was about $1,600

 

But I never said EV prices will always be too high, again, you made that up. 

 

 

2 hours ago, placeholder said:

As for battery charging times, CATL, the world's largest battery factory, has announced that it has a battery with a charging time of 5 minutes for an 80 percent fill that will begin to be manufactures on a mass scale in 2023. 
At 80% it should have a range greater than 400 miles.

Batteries don't have range, that's like saying a liter of fuel has range. Vehicles have range, and the range will be dependent on the vehicle and the load. 

 

In any evert, if five minutes is the charge time, the process time is significantly longer than that. Also, the faster the charge, the greater the power required, and the bigger the substation will be that goes where the tank goes now. 

 

My vehicle takes less than five minutes to fuel and has a range of 800km.