ICE vs EV, the debate thread

[KhunLA]

23 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

ICE's don't have an IP rating. They don't need them.

Who ever heard of an ICE catching fire after driving through water?

And yet, ICEV are 60X more likely to catch fire than an EV.

25 vs 1500+ per 100k, link posted earlier.

 

I wouldn't recommend driving your ICEV engine into water, as you'll blow out the freeze plug, and water will get inside.   It's not pretty ... trust me.

 

I wouldn't drive any vehicle through high water, did that here and had to replace the wheel bearings.

Edited August 3, 2023 by KhunLA

[transam]

1 minute ago, KhunLA said:

And yet, ICEV are 60X more likely to catch fire than an EV.

25 vs 1500+ per 100k, link posted earlier.

 

I wouldn't recommend driving your ICEV engine into water, as you'll blow out the freeze plug, and water will get inside.   It's not pretty ... trust me.

Blow out the freeze plugs................????

[KhunLA]

1 minute ago, transam said:

Blow out the freeze plugs................????

I speak from experience ????

[Lacessit]

11 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

I think you also hold a patent in the chemical field, if I am not mistaking you for someone else

Yes I do. Expired, but still in use.

[transam]

Just now, KhunLA said:

I speak from experience ????

Your bruv's MGB...............????

Every year in LOS I drive through water, I did a couple of days back. In my life I have never had a freeze plug blow out, they are even difficult to get out to change....

Even an engine low water, via a leak, with the thing under extreme steam pressure it is rare they blow out. ????

[JBChiangRai]

5 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

Yes I do. Expired, but still in use.

Rodney?

[KhunLA]

Just now, transam said:

Your bruv's MGB...............????

Every year in LOS I drive through water, I did a couple of days back. In my life I have never had a freeze plug blow out, they are even difficult to get out to change....

Even an engine low water, via a leak, with the thing under extreme steam pressure it is rare they blow out. ????

Reading comprehension ... the engine in water.   My car got driven into a lake ????

 

Unfortunately, it didn't stall out, as exhaust was out of the water, but most of engine in  the water.  It took all of the next day to get the muck out of the engine.  As it was turning, it was spurting out the freeze plug hole.  Constant flow of water in, till it came out clear.  

 

Actually ran for about year after ... surprisingly.

[Lacessit]

11 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

 

I wouldn't recommend driving your ICEV engine into water, as you'll blow out the freeze plug, and water will get inside.   It's not pretty ... trust me.

 

 

That' what snorkels are for, to prevent hydrostatic locking if water gets into the combustion chambers. Putting a snorkel on an EV would be like putting an ashtray on a Harley.

 

The bearings were not affected by water, it's the suspended solids ( mud ) in the water which does the damage.

[Lacessit]

1 minute ago, JBChiangRai said:

Rodney?

No.

[KhunLA]

2 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

The bearings were not affected by water, it's the suspended solids ( mud ) in the water which does the damage.

From driving through the water.   You guys are getting silly, again.

 

The gun didn't kill him, the bullet in it did.

 

Both back on ignore list.

Have a nice day.

Edited August 3, 2023 by KhunLA

[transam]

2 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Reading comprehension ... the engine in water.   My car got driven into a lake ????

 

Unfortunately, it didn't stall out, as exhaust was out of the water, but most of engine in  the water.  It took all of the next day to get the muck out of the engine.  As it was turning, it was spurting out the freeze plug hole.  Constant flow of water in, till it came out clear.  

 

Actually ran for about year after ... surprisingly.

Yes, my engines have been in water in the floods, you should tell the hole story for the full picture before the reading comprehension thingy, but that seems to be an EV posters thing...............????............????

[JBChiangRai]

5 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

 

The bearings were not affected by water, it's the suspended solids ( mud ) in the water which does the damage.

I did a very foolish thing in my very expensive EV last year.

 

After driving 90km of the 180km drive from Chiang Rai to Chiang Mai, the road was flooded and only pickups were getting through.

 

I lifted the car 3” on the air suspension and drove through the flood. The front camera was under water. The car made it, but it was an exceptionally stupid thing to do.

 

 

 

 

[KhunLA]

8 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

I did a very foolish thing in my very expensive EV last year.

 

After driving 90km of the 180km drive from Chiang Rai to Chiang Mai, the road was flooded and only pickups were getting through.

 

I lifted the car 3” on the air suspension and drove through the flood. The front camera was under water. The car made it, but it was an exceptionally stupid thing to do.

You went with the sporty model, when you should have gotten that Fomm One ????

 

AND ... It does catch on fire ... go figure.  6yr old tech to top it off ????

 

[Lacessit]

Just now, KhunLA said:

From driving through the water.   You're getting silly.

 

The gun didn't kill him, the bullet in it did.

 

Both back on ignore list.

Have a nice day.

You may be right if the grease has molybdenum sulphide as an additive, as it has poor water resistance and becomes corrosive in combination with water. OTOH, lithium stearate based grease has excellent water resistance,

Either grease is like a magnet to any dirt, coarse or fine.

 

I put people on ignore when they are annoying trolls who post dishonestly. I don't if they argue with facts.

[JBChiangRai]

4 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

 

I put people on ignore when they are annoying trolls who post dishonestly. I don't if they argue with facts.

What about annoying trolls who try to blind you with science?

 

IMHO life is too short and it’s all entertaining, even if their opinion is contrary to mine.  I enjoy even the anti-EV’ers posts, they usually get trapped by inconvenient truths and look silly.

[transam]

Just now, JBChiangRai said:

What about annoying trolls who try to blind you with science?

 

IMHO life is too short and it’s all entertaining, even if their opinion is contrary to mine.  I enjoy even the anti-EV’ers posts, they usually get trapped by inconvenient truths and look silly.

I think you have just buried yourself..............

[JBChiangRai]

1 minute ago, transam said:

I think you have just buried yourself..............

You wish

[transam]

Just now, JBChiangRai said:

You wish

No I don't, your written mistake tells all...........

[JBChiangRai]

3 minutes ago, transam said:

No I don't, your written mistake tells all...........

In your dreams

[Lacessit]

12 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

What about annoying trolls who try to blind you with science?

 

IMHO life is too short and it’s all entertaining, even if their opinion is contrary to mine.  I enjoy even the anti-EV’ers posts, they usually get trapped by inconvenient truths and look silly.

You prefer the universe of alternative facts?

I have no problem with acknowledging the virtues of EV's, it's virtue-signalling morons, who won't admit the unresolved problems EV's have, who irritate me with their irrational posts.

Here's an inconvenient truth for you. If you converted the entire passenger car and pickup fleet of Australia to EV's overnight, you would reduce carbon dioxide emissions by a mere 8%. Why? Because most of the electricity recharging those EV's would be coming from fossil-fuel power stations.

 

Edited August 3, 2023 by Lacessit

[JBChiangRai]

5 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

You prefer the universe of alternative facts?

I have no problem with acknowledging the virtues of EV's, it's virtue-signalling morons, who won't admit the unresolved problems EV's have, who irritate me with their irrational posts.

Here's an inconvenient truth for you. If you converted the entire passenger car and pickup fleet of Australia to EV's overnight, you would reduce carbon dioxide emissions by a mere 8%. Why? Because most of the electricity recharging those EV's would be coming from fossil-fuel power stations.

 

I don’t deny any of what you say.

 

I have never claimed to be virtue signaling once.  

 

I buy EV’s because of the economics and the way they drive, if it helps with the planet, then all well and good.

 

I put solar panels in my home purely for economic reasons too.

 

The transition to EV’s is likely to be problematic, but we are an ingenious species and will get there. Right now is the golden tine to own an EV in Thailand with a low vehicle count and an abundant (over 4,000) chargers available.

 

I do have some concerns with battery chemistry that I didn’t consider 2 years ago.  I am more knowledgeable now and would think twice about LiION or NMC, not just flammability but recharge cycles and hot temperature longevity.

[Lacessit]

8 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

I don’t deny any of what you say.

 

I have never claimed to be virtue signaling once.  

 

I buy EV’s because of the economics and the way they drive, if it helps with the planet, then all well and good.

 

I put solar panels in my home purely for economic reasons too.

 

The transition to EV’s is likely to be problematic, but we are an ingenious species and will get there. Right now is the golden tine to own an EV in Thailand with a low vehicle count and an abundant (over 4,000) chargers available.

 

I do have some concerns with battery chemistry that I didn’t consider 2 years ago.  I am more knowledgeable now and would think twice about LiION or NMC, not just flammability but recharge cycles and hot temperature longevity.

Now you are posting like a reasonable person. Stay well.

[Madgee]

I suppose I'm sitting on the fence by buying a hybrid recently.

Worth a read for a different perspective from the EV preachers.
 

Rowan Atkinson says:

Electric car owners despair over battery problems and lack of chargers | This is Money

[JBChiangRai]

9 minutes ago, Madgee said:

I suppose I'm sitting on the fence by buying a hybrid recently.

Worth a read for a different perspective from the EV preachers.
 

Rowan Atkinson says:

Electric car owners despair over battery problems and lack of chargers | This is Money

We could have the same problems in Thailand if we don’t keep adding chargers at the same rate of EV sales.  Right now not an issue.

 

I am currently in Chiang Mai, EV’s are everywhere here.

[BKKBike09]

22 hours ago, Lacessit said:

This video explains why EV's are a high fire risk.  And why ICE's with a higher frequency of car fires are a much lower risk proposition in terms of potential damage.

I am wondering when insurance companies are going to realize this risk, and inflate premiums for EV's accordingly.

Some of the footage shown in the video makes me wonder how safe EV owners are in their houses, when they are using home chargers.

I suggest you watch right through with an open mind.

 

 

I did try to watch through to the end but felt he was taking 20 mins to say what could be said in 5 mins. The rambling to one side, he has a valid point: that while EV fires are actually quite rare, they're bad news when they do happen, especially in confined spaces. 

 

However, there's no discussion about the different types of battery chemistry. Lithium Iron Phosphate (LFP - LiFePO4) technology is much less prone to thermal runaway than the various types of Lithium Ion battery, whether caused by charging issues / heat or physical damage eg rupture of some sort.

 

This experiment is a good example - drilling holes in an LFP battery to see what happens (a Lithium Ion battery went straight to thermal runaway).

 

 

Here's the Lithium Ion test. Scary! 

 

My EV (BYD) has an LFP battery, which was one of the major selling points for me. 

 

There are lots of good things about driving an EV but one should never forget that a battery stores a huge amount of energy.

 

[Madgee]

51 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

I am currently in Chiang Mai, EV’s are everywhere here.

Got to admit, I'm noticing a lot more here 'in the boonies'. 

 

Another interesting alternative read:

Why electric cars are NOT green machines: The environmental benefit of EVs may never be felt (msn.com)

 

[KhunLA]

19 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

I do have some concerns with battery chemistry that I didn’t consider 2 years ago.  I am more knowledgeable now and would think twice about LiION or NMC, not just flammability but recharge cycles and hot temperature longevity.

Just my dumb luck, the govt incentives were offered after MG moved to mostly LFP battery packs,  Not that I was going to send more than 1M on 4 wheels anyway.

 

The 200k extra, EV price over the ICE version of the MG ZS is worth the price just for performance upgrade.  Never having to go a petrol station and buy petrol again, just icing on the cake.

 

Don't think anyone has to worry about fires.  I mean really, 25 per 100k.  Nobody worries about ICEV fires, @ 60X the probability.  Now fires are a concern ... I think not.

 

Better fire training and fire blankets should limit any problems.

 

Longevity would be the only thing with older chemistry, as the LFP seem to last forever, if even half the suggested longevity is accurate..  I've never put 500k kms on any vehicle I owned, let alone 900k, before the battery starts to noticeably degrade.

 

I doubt if CS will be an issue here/TH, aside from weekends if not reserving, for about the next 5 ish years. 

 

And those with solar .... what's not to love.

[Madgee]

2 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Don't think anyone has to worry about fires.  I mean really, 25 per 100k.  Nobody worries about ICEV fires, @ 60X the probability.  Now fires are a concern ... I think not.

But how many thousands of registered EV's are sitting in a field somewhere in China with no mileage on just to get the sales incentives from the Chinese Gov.?   I'm not saying it amounts to 100's of thousands ...............or does it?

 

[JBChiangRai]

LTO batteries are interesting. Not as energy dense as the others but typically 10-20x more charge cycles.

 

initially, I was going to specify them for my solar power installation at home, but as I looked into it more, I found out that the voltage difference between fully charged and discharged is significant, and it’s very difficult to BMS and get the power output out of them, the power output dropS significantly with voltage as they discharge. It’s also very difficult to match them up to inverters because they think the battery is discharged when actually it’s at a 70% state of charge.  Certainly, it was impossible to match them up with my hybrid inverters.

[JBChiangRai]

6 minutes ago, Madgee said:

But how many thousands of registered EV's are sitting in a field somewhere in China with no mileage on just to get the sales incentives from the Chinese Gov.?   I'm not saying it amounts to 100's of thousands ...............or does it?

 

I am not sure we’ve heard the full or true story there.