ICE vs EV, the debate thread

[Pib]

Nothing new about car manufacturers going bankrupt over the years especially when in a huge country like China where many entrepreneurs/investors decided they will give the manufacturing of EVs a try....get in on the ground floor of this technology and major change in what people drive.   Heck, in China they open new companies/factories like 7-11's in Thailand.  Kinda like the early days of ICEV when some entrepreneurs literally started manufacturing ICEVs in their garages hoping to expand into a big company.

 

List of Recent Dead, Defunct, and Bankrupt Car Companies

https://www.zeroto60times.com/2012/02/dead-defunct-bankrupt-car-companies/

Quote

 

Dead car companies have met their demise for a host of reasons. For some dead car companies it was not enough desirable selection,

others too much selection and the high costs of marketing all of it, others a myopic focus on producing gas guzzlers as consumers

swiftly changed their buying priorities to fuel sippers and still others simply blame the economy.

 

Whatever the reason for the car company’s bankruptcy, there have been literally thousands of car manufacturers since the inception of

the automobile which have gone out of business. A large percentage of this figure is due to the fact that in the early years of the

automobile, it was commonplace to see people making their own automobiles out of their garage and selling a few to friends and

neighbors. Due to the mass number of defunct car companies worldwide, we decided to simply compile a list of the more recent dead

car companies (failing after 1960) of which most people would be more familiar with.

 

Which car company is the biggest failure? Well, that would be a good debate, but one of the more notables would be the Edsel. Ford

invested heavily in the manufacturing and marketing of this dead car business, which was immediately rejected by the public in terms

of it being too expensive and rather unattractive (particularly the grill).  Post a comment and tell us which failed car company you wish

could be brought back to life and why.

 

 

DEFUNCT CAR COMPANIES SINCE 1960:

American Motors (AMC) (1966–1987)
Apollo (1962–1964)
Aptera Motors (2005-2011)
Autoette (1948–1970)
Bricklin (1974–1976)
Checker (1922–1982)
Citicar (1974–1976)
Corbin (1999–2003)
Dale (1974)
DeLorean (1981–1982)
DeSoto (1928–1961)
Dovell (circa 1980s)
Eagle (1988–1998)
Edsel (1958–1960)
Electricar (1950–1966)
Eshelman (1953–1961)
Fiberfab (circa 1960s)
Fisker (2007-2013)
Frazen (1951–1962)
Gaslight (1960-circa 1961)
Geo (1989–1997)
Henney (1960–1964)
Hummer (1992–2010)
Imperial (1955–1975, 1981–1983)
International Harvester (1907–1975)
King Midget (1947–1970)
Mercury (1939–2010)
Nu-Klea (1959–1960)
Oldsmobile (1897–2004)
Plymouth (1928–2001)
Pontiac (1926–2010)
Powell (1930s-1960s)
Rambler (1958–1969)
REO (or Reo) (1905–1975)
Saab (1937–2012)
Saturn (1985–2010)
Studebaker (1902–1967)
Stutz (1968–1987)
Stutz (1968–1987)
Vector (1971–1999, 2006-2010)
White (1902–1981)
Willys (1916–1918, 1930–1942, 1953–1963)

 

 

[Yellowtail]

6 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

I think they are looking a bit dated now.

Compared to what? In any even, looks are subjective. 

6 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

  I have 3 issues with Tesla in Thailand...

 

First, Elon Musk, Tesla=Elon Musk, Elon Musk=Tesla.  Elon has no checks and balances and he talks BS, he also employs some underhand practices, eg black colour is free, white colour is 50k THB more, but in Malaysia it's the other way around.

I like Elon now, when he was the darling of the left not so much. 

6 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

Second, the prices here are too high, they need to be dropped by 20%

Yeah, well it's like buying shirts. A shirt you like is worth more than one you don't.

 

I spent over twenty years doing analysis for cost justification of capital expenditures, the only reason for me to buy an EV is because I want one. Financially it silly. 

6 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

Third, Tesla is priced as an AI company, it's not, it's an EV manufacturer, his full delf driving will never work in Thailand because their vision based system likes clean white lines.  There is a class action lawsuit in the UK, they are suing Tesla because 4 years ago they bought FSD, it's never been delivered, many people in the Uk work on a 3 year replacement cycle.

If self-driving cars will work anywhere, they will work anywhere. Thinking they will work in the US or the UK is silly. 

6 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

Even if the prices were dropped 20%, I would have to think long and hard about all the missing bits you get standard on the BYD.

What missing bits? 

 

You said three issues, but they all seem to boil down to price, so it's only really one issue. 

[JBChiangRai]

I do have another issue with Tesla.  I wouldn't want the base model 3, I would want

performance or long range and I don't like the battery chemistry in those two variants, it's not ideal for Thailand.

 

3 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

As a point of interest, how much of the braking is derived from the engine itself, and how much from the hydraulic discs? Which takes the brunt of an emergency braking situation?

 

Most of the braking in day to day driving is kinetic energy regeneration (KER), the brakes are only used to bring you to a final stop or in emergency braking.  Pressing the brake pedal causes KER until you are almost stopped or press it very hard indeed, KER is variable on brake pedal pressure in the Seal and it blends the brakes so you don't even notice.

[Yellowtail]

2 minutes ago, Pib said:

Nothing new about car manufacturers going bankrupt over the years especially when in a huge country like China where many entrepreneurs/investors decided they will give the manufacturing of EVs a try....get in on the ground floor of this technology and major change in what people drive.   Heck, in China they open new companies/factories like 7-11's in Thailand.  Kinda like the early days of ICEV when some entrepreneurs literally started manufacturing ICEVs in their garages hoping to expand into a big company.

 

List of Recent Dead, Defunct, and Bankrupt Car Companies

https://www.zeroto60times.com/2012/02/dead-defunct-bankrupt-car-companies/

 

Many/most on that list are brands, not manufacturers. 

[KhunLA]

9 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

As a point of interest, how much of the braking is derived from the engine itself, and how much from the hydraulic discs? Which takes the brunt of an emergency braking situation?

I rarely touch my brakes, as the regen, once use to, will slow me down for most of my driving.  Only when coming to a complete stop, if cruise control is not engaged.

 

Regen when timed right, will bring you down to an rolling idle.   Takes a while to get used to.   First week or so and I was almost stopping 20m before intersections.  Now I rarely touch the brakes and all that energy goes back to the battery pack.

Edited February 3 by KhunLA

[JBChiangRai]

Just now, Yellowtail said:

Compared to what? In any even, looks are subjective. 

I like Elon now, when he was the darling of the left not so much. 

Yeah, well it's like buying shirts. A shirt you like is worth more than one you don't.

 

I spent over twenty years doing analysis for cost justification of capital expenditures, the only reason for me to buy an EV is because I want one. Financially it silly. 

If self-driving cars will work anywhere, they will work anywhere. Thinking they will work in the US or the UK is silly. 

What missing bits? 

 

You said three issues, but they all seem to boil down to price, so it's only really one issue. 

 

They don't all boil down to price, the first one is not price, it's risk.

 

Why do you think financially it's silly to buy an EV? I assume your comparing similar new cars, EV & ICE?  Financially it makes great sense for me.

 

I have zero trust in FSD being delivered before my replacement cycle, I think he has gone down a blind alley by losing LIDAR.  Thailand doesn't have thousands of Tesla's mapping the roads, it probably doesn't have any.

 

Missing bits, Apple Car Play, Android Auto, Heads Up display, Speedometer in front of your, steering wheel stalks, ability to load apps on infotainment, refrigerated seats

 

[KhunLA]

7 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

the only reason for me to buy an EV is because I want one. Financially it silly. 

I'm more of a spiteful person, and detest monopolies.  Especially when they cost my money.  Big oil vs charging at home, just a no brainer for me.

 

Big oil is the only reason EVs weren't available before in the USA.

 

Add solar to the equation, and nothing gives me as much pleasure as driving by PTT every week, or getting our PEA bill every month.

 

Add the savings and pure BLISS   Aside from the fact, now I can complain about the low level air pollution, since not contributing as much to it. 

 

 

[Pib]

1 hour ago, KhunLA said:

Add solar to the equation, and nothing gives me as much pleasure as driving by PTT every week, or getting our PEA bill every month.

 

 

I still continue to visit my nearby PTT station as that's where Burger King and Texas Chicken outlets are located...also a tire pressure pump.  Need to kept my belly happy with burgers and chicken...plus keep my EV tires properly inflated.

 

And while visiting the PTT station I try "not" to look at the faces of customers filling-up their ICEVs at the pumps because I don't enjoy seeing the sad faces caused by the price of the fuel.

 

 

[KhunLA]

30 minutes ago, Pib said:

 

I still continue to visit my nearby PTT station as that's where Burger King and Texas Chicken outlets are located...also a tire pressure pump.  Need to kept my belly happy with burgers and chicken...plus keep my EV tires properly inflated.

 

And while visiting the PTT station I try "not" to look at the faces of customers filling-up their ICEVs at the pumps because I don't enjoy seeing the sad faces caused by the price of the fuel.

Wow ... your PTT has a BK ... lucky you, as can't beat a double Whopper.

 

We have an air compressor at the house, as most stations seem to not have air any more, or at least the hoses.

 

I avoid the petrol pump area, as depression and frustration could be contagious.  Too much rage in that area, and I might be a trigger while laughing at them.

 

The larger PTT here is a special trip involving U-turns, and was extra effort to top up the ICEV when owning, aside from Q'ing up every week to hand over my 1000-1500 baht for that fuel that contributes to the self destruction of the engine & exhaust system 

 

[Yellowtail]

2 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

They don't all boil down to price, the first one is not price, it's risk.

That was not clear to me. How is buying a Tesla riskier than buying an MG or a BYD?

2 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

Why do you think financially it's silly to buy an EV? I assume your comparing similar new cars, EV & ICE?  Financially it makes great sense for me.

I said it did not make sense for me. 

2 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

I have zero trust in FSD being delivered before my replacement cycle, I think he has gone down a blind alley by losing LIDAR.  Thailand doesn't have thousands of Tesla's mapping the roads, it probably doesn't have any.

Again, if self driving cars will work anywhere, they will work anywhere. The biggest hurtle I see is liability, not technology. 

2 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

Missing bits, Apple Car Play, Android Auto, Heads Up display, Speedometer in front of your, steering wheel stalks, ability to load apps on infotainment, refrigerated seats

 

 

With the exception of refrigerated seats, none of those interest me. 

 

Did you mean refrigerated or ventilated? 

[Yellowtail]

1 hour ago, Pib said:

 

I still continue to visit my nearby PTT station as that's where Burger King and Texas Chicken outlets are located...also a tire pressure pump.  Need to kept my belly happy with burgers and chicken...plus keep my EV tires properly inflated.

 

And while visiting the PTT station I try "not" to look at the faces of customers filling-up their ICEVs at the pumps because I don't enjoy seeing the sad faces caused by the price of the fuel.

 

 

Well, typically you can't see their faces because the windows are tinted and they do not have to get out of the vehicle to fuel. 

 

 

[JBChiangRai]

55 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

That was not clear to me. How is buying a Tesla riskier than buying an MG or a BYD?

I said it did not make sense for me. 

Again, if self driving cars will work anywhere, they will work anywhere. The biggest hurtle I see is liability, not technology. 

 

With the exception of refrigerated seats, none of those interest me. 

 

Did you mean refrigerated or ventilated? 

Sorry I hadn’t resisted you post about financially being silly was just referring to you.

 

Tesla is riskier because it’s just one man without checks and balances making the big decisions and he sometimes makes them on emotion.

 

I did mean refrigerated seats. Ventilated with refrigerated air, extremely effective.

[Gweiloman]

4 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

 

 

I spent over twenty years doing analysis for cost justification of capital expenditures, the only reason for me to buy an EV is because I want one. Financially it silly. 

 

I’m a qualified accountant and previously worked as a financial director and controller for various multinational corporations.

 

Financially, buying a (new) car does not make good financial sense. Fortunately, not all purchases are made on purely financial grounds. Getting married for example.

 

 

[Lacessit]

3 hours ago, Pib said:

 

I still continue to visit my nearby PTT station as that's where Burger King and Texas Chicken outlets are located...also a tire pressure pump.  Need to kept my belly happy with burgers and chicken...plus keep my EV tires properly inflated.

 

And while visiting the PTT station I try "not" to look at the faces of customers filling-up their ICEVs at the pumps because I don't enjoy seeing the sad faces caused by the price of the fuel.

 

 

You actually eat Burger King and Texas Chicken?

How much extra pressure do your tires need?

[Lacessit]

4 hours ago, KhunLA said:

 

Add the savings and pure BLISS   Aside from the fact, now I can complain about the low level air pollution, since not contributing as much to it. 

 

 

I knew you could not resist a virtue signal long-term.

[Gweiloman]

21 hours ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

The beginning of the end for EVs.

https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/ev-adoption-weakening-despite-us-subsidies-and-other-inducements-by-todd-g-buchholz-2024-01

Reading the article, I tend to agree with you.

1) The charging infrastructure in America leaves a lot to be desired 

2) The choice of EVs in America leaves a lot to be desired 

3) The intellect of some car owners in America leaves a lot to be desired 

 

It’s no wonder that EV sales are not doing well. In America.

[KhunLA]

28 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

I knew you could not resist a virtue signal long-term.

How is that virtue signal long-term ?  Don't think I'm saving the planet, not that it needs saving.  If that's what your implying, or that EV will save the planet.  Definitely not my thinking.

 

Just not contributing to the vile exhaust I hate smelling when I'm riding the scooter around, almost daily.  If wanting to breathe fresher air is virtue signaling, then guilty as charged.

 

I did also state ... "since not contributing as much to it" ... as we still burn our trash, what little we have.  Either that, or give to the municipality to possibly burn, or worse, dump in the sea.   So we take the latter out of being possible.

 

 

Edited February 3 by KhunLA

[KhunLA]

24 minutes ago, Gweiloman said:

Reading the article, I tend to agree with you.

1) The charging infrastructure in America leaves a lot to be desired 

2) The choice of EVs in America leaves a lot to be desired 

3) The intellect of some car owners in America leaves a lot to be desired 

 

It’s no wonder that EV sales are not doing well. In America.

Not sure about #1, but # 2 & 3, agree, and have to almost feel sorry for them Yanks.

[Yellowtail]

2 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

Sorry I hadn’t resisted you post about financially being silly was just referring to you.

I was talking about me, but it would also apply to anyone in a similar situation.

2 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

Tesla is riskier because it’s just one man without checks and balances making the big decisions and he sometimes makes them on emotion.

So a Steve Jobs type? How many people do you think should be in charge of a typical enterprise? Lead by committee? 

2 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

I did mean refrigerated seats. Ventilated with refrigerated air, extremely effective.

 

Nice!

[JBChiangRai]

3 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

I was talking about me, but it would also apply to anyone in a similar situation.

So a Steve Jobs type? How many people do you think should be in charge of a typical enterprise? Lead by committee? 

 

Nice!

 

And financially sensible applies to me and anyone in a similar situation.

 

Musk/Tesla is different, Musk should answer to the board as all CEO's are supposed to do, but they are all yes men, he makes dangerous decisions and says dangerous things.  The board is supposed to answer to the shareholders.

[JBChiangRai]

I saw the Deepal saloon L07 today, very impressive, quite a bit bigger than the Seal. 

[Yellowtail]

1 minute ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

And financially sensible applies to me and anyone in a similar situation.

 

Musk/Tesla is different, Musk should answer to the board as all CEO's are supposed to do, but they are all yes men, he makes dangerous decisions and says dangerous things.  The board is supposed to answer to the shareholders.

What has Musk done to harm shareholders?

 

[brfsa2]

6 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

I think they are looking a bit dated now.  I have 3 issues with Tesla in Thailand...

 

First, Elon Musk, Tesla=Elon Musk, Elon Musk=Tesla.  Elon has no checks and balances and he talks BS, he also employs some underhand practices, eg black colour is free, white colour is 50k THB more, but in Malaysia it's the other way around.

 

Second, the prices here are too high, they need to be dropped by 20%

 

Third, Tesla is priced as an AI company, it's not, it's an EV manufacturer, his full delf driving will never work in Thailand because their vision based system likes clean white lines.  There is a class action lawsuit in the UK, they are suing Tesla because 4 years ago they bought FSD, it's never been delivered, many people in the Uk work on a 3 year replacement cycle.

 

Even if the prices were dropped 20%, I would have to think long and hard about all the missing bits you get standard on the BYD.

I agree as well that Tesla is quite expensive here in Thailand, and they need to greatly drop prices here. It is a fancy tech car for the people that want it. I really wanted it 🙂 haha.

I would attest that Tesla is huge in AI, they invested lot, Elon wants it to be like that, the Tesla autonomous robot is driven by AI, so does FSD. 

The main reason I went for the BYD ATTO3 vs the model Y with LFP battery was the high price difference and the fact that insurance and repairs for Tesla are insanely expensive. And that 500,000 baht difference I installed a 5kW solar system and still have money to replace that crazy crappie tires with some Michelin SUV +. Really amazing tires. 

insurance is a must in Thailand. 
On the BYD I have just done two claims from two minor occasions, a motorbike hit-and-run, ruining my rear bumper and I very sad to say I have killed a dog on the motorway to chonburi, that ruined my front.

The insurance for the BYD is also expensive, around 23,000 baht when compared to a Toyota fortuner Legender that cost 30% more was only 13,000 baht. 
 

I don’t like Toyota cars performance, but I own a great car from them. It’s just so well made and reliable. And their spare parts logistics is top notch in the world.
only issue: 1 year ago they really pushed me to replace the battery, quoted 5,500 baht. trying to make money from me. I wasn’t stupid. 

1 year later now the battery is still running very well. I am going to replace myself for just 3,200 baht the same model. Just because it’s 3 years old now. 
 

I don’t think 5 years from now Toyota will be as big, but definitely a big player for sure. Their main advantage: they have less dependability on China , now with the instability in the region with China, Taiwan and the south sea problems. 
Would the worst case happens with China-Taiwan, we will have a major worldwide disruption in every technology and car sector. 

[brfsa2]

5 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

I saw the Deepal saloon L07 today, very impressive, quite a bit bigger than the Seal. 

Oh yes.  that car is really something different isn’t it? I really loved the look. 
And the power is supposed to be good. 

[HighPriority]

56 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

What has Musk done to harm shareholders?

 

Twitter. 
 

edit:

the cave sub…

his Pedo accusation to the cave rescuer…

his general disregard for corporate governance…

his treatment of employees post covid. 
 

Edited February 3 by HighPriority
Fleshing out

[Gweiloman]

On 2/2/2024 at 4:44 PM, ExpatOilWorker said:

The beginning of the end for EVs.

https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/ev-adoption-weakening-despite-us-subsidies-and-other-inducements-by-todd-g-buchholz-2024-01

 

Meanwhile, on the other side of the world…

 

 

So while sales of high quality western and Japanese made EVs by Ford, GM, Lucid, Rivian, Toyota, Honda etc are floundering, Chinese made crap is flourishing in a country that is part of AUKUS and the 5-eyes.
 

Who to believe? Who to believe? The EV haters on AN or those who are extremely satisfied with their financially unjustifiable purchase that supports the growing threat of communism and abuse of human rights?

[Yellowtail]

15 hours ago, HighPriority said:

Twitter. 
 

edit:

the cave sub…

his Pedo accusation to the cave rescuer…

his general disregard for corporate governance…

his treatment of employees post covid. 
 

You go lefty!

 

So, if I bought TSLA at about $20 five years ago and it's only about $200 today I'm mad because he supports free speech, and you don't? 

[JBChiangRai]

8 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

You go lefty!

 

So, if I bought TSLA at about $20 five years ago and it's only about $200 today I'm mad because he supports free speech, and you don't? 

 

He does not support free speech, you get deleted if he doesn't like your free speech.

[Yellowtail]

11 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

He does not support free speech, you get deleted if he doesn't like your free speech.

I think it safe to assume you will not provide any examples. 

 

Not buying a Tesla because you don't like what Elon Musk says it a good reason, and when he opened up Twitter Tesla sales suffered. I boycotted Starbucks because of the chin-music Howard Schultz was playing. 

 

In any event, if I bought TSLA at about $20 five years ago and it's only about $200 today I'm mad because?

[JBChiangRai]

3 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

I think it safe to assume you will not provide any examples. 

 

Not buying a Tesla because you don't like what Elon Musk says it a good reason, and when he opened up Twitter Tesla sales suffered. I boycotted Starbucks because of the chin-music Howard Schultz was playing. 

 

In any event, if I bought TSLA at about $20 five years ago and it's only about $200 today I'm mad because?

 

When you ASSUME you make an ASS out of U and ME

 

Here are a couple of examples

 

Musk Censors the Press | CNN Business

Twitter’s rulebook in a nutshell: don’t annoy Elon Musk | Elon Musk | The Guardian