ICE vs EV, the debate thread

[Yellowtail]

18 minutes ago, Pogust said:

Conversation with people who really know the facts around EVs and Hydrogen vehicles. Possibilities and limits. Take the time to listen.

 

 

Would you please provide a summary? 

 

 

[Yellowtail]

1 minute ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

Sorry but I would need a synopsis, I am not watching 1 hour 40 minutes.

Synopsis is a much better choice of words...

 

 

[Pogust]

Dreams contra reality. Calculations how much material would be needed to fulfil those electric dreams. And how much material there is available. Anything those 4 persons say is worth listening to.

[dhupverg]

Interesting to hear about Tesla and why their profits were down. "Tesla profits drop 55%, company says EV sales ‘under pressure’ from hybrids"

 

"“The EV adoption rate globally is under pressure and a lot of other auto manufacturers are pulling back on EVs and pursuing plug in hybrids instead,”

 

https://techcrunch.com/2024/04/23/tesla-profits-drop-55-company-says-ev-sales-under-pressure-from-hybrids/?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly9uZXdzLmdvb2dsZS5jb20v&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAKMkJvVQllV6pq8pqUPzWu5Ael96S7EEum-pfjem38gCqcCZIh5CEOrgKLsDJL8OE2dbMt7tqQvmIKcFt9ytEoEUJh40illH_z0dTp4pXs97gLTl7ns3zG03xtNKjUqk2OWBob3eELrBgD5Tl4Hm5TqTW_jJd-T26GPlUaEFJsRE

[transam]

3 minutes ago, dhupverg said:

Interesting to hear about Tesla and why their profits were down. "Tesla profits drop 55%, company says EV sales ‘under pressure’ from hybrids"

 

"“The EV adoption rate globally is under pressure and a lot of other auto manufacturers are pulling back on EVs and pursuing plug in hybrids instead,”

 

https://techcrunch.com/2024/04/23/tesla-profits-drop-55-company-says-ev-sales-under-pressure-from-hybrids/?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly9uZXdzLmdvb2dsZS5jb20v&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAKMkJvVQllV6pq8pqUPzWu5Ael96S7EEum-pfjem38gCqcCZIh5CEOrgKLsDJL8OE2dbMt7tqQvmIKcFt9ytEoEUJh40illH_z0dTp4pXs97gLTl7ns3zG03xtNKjUqk2OWBob3eELrBgD5Tl4Hm5TqTW_jJd-T26GPlUaEFJsRE

Hybrids, best of both words, don't get stranded, you know it makes sense.......😋

[Yellowtail]

All the really smart people are waiting for BYD to buy 

[GroveHillWanderer]

More promising battery development news - "zero-degradation" grid storage batteries. 

 

CATL Claims New Grid Battery Will Experience No Degradation In First Five Years

 

OK, this is not being implemented in EV batteries just yet but if the principle behind it has been worked out, I dare say it will make its way into EV batteries eventually.

[Yellowtail]

18 hours ago, GroveHillWanderer said:

More promising battery development news - "zero-degradation" grid storage batteries. 

 

CATL Claims New Grid Battery Will Experience No Degradation In First Five Years

 

OK, this is not being implemented in EV batteries just yet but if the principle behind it has been worked out, I dare say it will make its way into EV batteries eventually.

How many have they sold, and how much are they? 

[GroveHillWanderer]

9 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

How many have they sold, and how much are they? 

According to the article, CATL only just announced availability on April 9th so my take would be a) not very many and b) not disclosed.

[KhunLA]

They really say anything now to disparage EVs ... too funny

 

 

[KhunLA]

Maybe this would make them happy, and give Tesla & EVs a good review ... 

 

[KhunLA]

Another day, more petrol price increases, more saving owning an EV  

Knocking on ฿40 a liter 😲

 

 

    

[Yellowtail]

2 hours ago, KhunLA said:

Another day, more petrol price increases, more saving owning an EV  

Knocking on ฿40 a liter 😲

 

 

    

 

    

[liddelljohn]

The EV fanatics and Groans all bang on that Hydrogen is expensive and difficult to store and all that , but The big Oil companies and other energy companies including Nuclear, wind and solar are pouring Billions into solving the Hydrogen engineering ,production and storage issue in conjuntion with the vehicle manufactures and designers ,, along side compatible synthetic fuels the ICE engine will not die .... Its the massive elephant in the room ,, and the EV, fanatics, Groans, Politicians and vested interest know it and hate it ,,, but they are wrong ha ha

 

The HYSE ICE hydrogen engine developed by Yamaha/Toyota  is going into full production and has been licensed by others in The consortium  including Honda, Stellantis,Kawasaki, Suzuki, Komatsu, Kubota Isuzu,Ford  and Mazda ,2,4 & V8 variants  for car M/c, bus etc .

 

JCB already has its equivalent engine in production  and others are in development or licensing negotiations  with other heavy vehicle makers  , and some of the big EV companies are also in on it

 

Caterpiller are  working on their version too

 

so the end of EVs is coming

[HighPriority]

7 hours ago, liddelljohn said:

The EV fanatics and Groans all bang on that Hydrogen is expensive and difficult to store and all that , but The big Oil companies and other energy companies including Nuclear, wind and solar are pouring Billions into solving the Hydrogen engineering ,production and storage issue in conjuntion with the vehicle manufactures and designers ,, along side compatible synthetic fuels the ICE engine will not die .... Its the massive elephant in the room ,, and the EV, fanatics, Groans, Politicians and vested interest know it and hate it ,,, but they are wrong ha ha

 

The HYSE ICE hydrogen engine developed by Yamaha/Toyota  is going into full production and has been licensed by others in The consortium  including Honda, Stellantis,Kawasaki, Suzuki, Komatsu, Kubota Isuzu,Ford  and Mazda ,2,4 & V8 variants  for car M/c, bus etc .

 

JCB already has its equivalent engine in production  and others are in development or licensing negotiations  with other heavy vehicle makers  , and some of the big EV companies are also in on it

 

Caterpiller are  working on their version too

 

so the end of EVs is coming

Sounds fantastic, do you have a link so I can break out the lube too ?

[JBChiangRai]

8 hours ago, liddelljohn said:

The EV fanatics and Groans all bang on that Hydrogen is expensive and difficult to store and all that , but The big Oil companies and other energy companies including Nuclear, wind and solar are pouring Billions into solving the Hydrogen engineering ,production and storage issue in conjuntion with the vehicle manufactures and designers ,, along side compatible synthetic fuels the ICE engine will not die .... Its the massive elephant in the room ,, and the EV, fanatics, Groans, Politicians and vested interest know it and hate it ,,, but they are wrong ha ha

 

The HYSE ICE hydrogen engine developed by Yamaha/Toyota  is going into full production and has been licensed by others in The consortium  including Honda, Stellantis,Kawasaki, Suzuki, Komatsu, Kubota Isuzu,Ford  and Mazda ,2,4 & V8 variants  for car M/c, bus etc .

 

JCB already has its equivalent engine in production  and others are in development or licensing negotiations  with other heavy vehicle makers  , and some of the big EV companies are also in on it

 

Caterpiller are  working on their version too

 

so the end of EVs is coming

Let’s take some of your points…

 

pouring Billions into solving the Hydrogen engineering ,production and storage issue in conjuntion with the vehicle manufactures and designers
 

Yes, they are, but and it’s a big BUT, green hydrogen is considered the future 

https://www.mckinsey.com/industries/oil-and-gas/our-insights/global-energy-perspective-2023-hydrogen-outlook

and for long distance haulage and public service type infrastructure only. To make green hydrogen you start with green electricity, a third of it is wasted producing oxygen and there are more losses involved and ultimately to end up with electricity again forom you fuel cell or you run a H2 ICE which we have already engineered over the last 120 years to its wonderful 25% efficiency.

 

No number of billions invested is ever going to change that.

 

So, yes you are going to see H2 vehicles mostly in the sectors I have described but also perhaps in countries with little electricity infrastructure (quite how they will develop a H2 infrastructure is beyond me).

 

But the end of EV’s is not coming, we at the dawn of EV adoption and it’s only going to accelerate.  We will have some H2 alongside EV’s but market dynamics regarding cost and availability will take care of the rest.

 

When I am faced with a H2 car that costs 5 times more per km and is likely slower than a similar EV, my choice as a consumer will be self evident.

 

But please feel welcome to buy your H2 car, ha ha as you said.

 

[Gweiloman]

9 hours ago, liddelljohn said:

The EV fanatics and Groans all bang on that Hydrogen is expensive and difficult to store and all that , but The big Oil companies and other energy companies including Nuclear, wind and solar are pouring Billions into solving the Hydrogen engineering ,production and storage issue in conjuntion with the vehicle manufactures and designers ,, along side compatible synthetic fuels the ICE engine will not die .... Its the massive elephant in the room ,, and the EV, fanatics, Groans, Politicians and vested interest know it and hate it ,,, but they are wrong ha ha

 

The HYSE ICE hydrogen engine developed by Yamaha/Toyota  is going into full production and has been licensed by others in The consortium  including Honda, Stellantis,Kawasaki, Suzuki, Komatsu, Kubota Isuzu,Ford  and Mazda ,2,4 & V8 variants  for car M/c, bus etc .

 

JCB already has its equivalent engine in production  and others are in development or licensing negotiations  with other heavy vehicle makers  , and some of the big EV companies are also in on it

 

Caterpiller are  working on their version too

 

so the end of EVs is coming

You might well be right but I was reading that Shell recently closed some hydrogen filling stations in California I believe? And that some Toyota Mirai owners are suing Toyota for selling them a car that can’t work (as there is nowhere for them to fill it up).

 

By the way, what are Groans? And why are EV owners fanatics? I own an EV mainly because it only costs me about Thb200 to drive 400+ kms (less if I’m able to charge using my solar setup) as compared to over Thb 600 for my Mazda 2. On top of that, I save money on consumables like engine oil, oil filters, servicing etc.

 

Looking forward to hearing your further views about EVs.

[Pib]

10 hours ago, liddelljohn said:

The EV fanatics and Groans all bang on that Hydrogen is expensive and difficult to store and all that , but The big Oil companies and other energy companies including Nuclear, wind and solar are pouring Billions into solving the Hydrogen engineering ,production and storage issue in conjuntion with the vehicle manufactures and designers ,, along side compatible synthetic fuels the ICE engine will not die .... Its the massive elephant in the room ,, and the EV, fanatics, Groans, Politicians and vested interest know it and hate it ,,, but they are wrong ha ha

 

The HYSE ICE hydrogen engine developed by Yamaha/Toyota  is going into full production and has been licensed by others in The consortium  including Honda, Stellantis,Kawasaki, Suzuki, Komatsu, Kubota Isuzu,Ford  and Mazda ,2,4 & V8 variants  for car M/c, bus etc .

 

JCB already has its equivalent engine in production  and others are in development or licensing negotiations  with other heavy vehicle makers  , and some of the big EV companies are also in on it

 

Caterpiller are  working on their version too

 

so the end of EVs is coming

Above post has received the Toyota seal of approval for more promises of cheap & efficient hydrogen-powered vehicles for the masses being just around the corner....just hang on a little longer...in the interim please continue to buy Toyota ICEV.

[KhunLA]

 

[Pib]

34 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

 

 

Yea...the explosion clearly shows it coming from the rear-end of the car...the trunk area of the car.  And when I saw that I immediately thought that's a CNG cylinder exploding; not an EV which has its traction battery on the middle bottom portion of a car.   Plus, an exploding EV traction battery would include plenty of flames...sustained flames...but no flames in this video...not even a brief amount of flames.

[JetsetBkk]

 

[Gweiloman]

1 hour ago, JetsetBkk said:

 

I haven’t watched the video but I’m wondering why you would link it in this topic. Are you not aware that LFP batteries don’t contain cobalt?

[KhunLA]

1 hour ago, JetsetBkk said:

 

Stated already, newer BEV don't need cobalt, and like ours, are using LFP chemistry.

 

Your phone, laptop and other battery operated electronics are probably still using though.

 

Hypocrisy - the practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform.

[JetsetBkk]

On 5/4/2024 at 1:37 PM, Gweiloman said:

I haven’t watched the video but I’m wondering why you would link it in this topic. Are you not aware that LFP batteries don’t contain cobalt?

Thanks for your polite response. 

No, I was not aware that LFP batteries contain no cobalt. 

That'll teach me not to follow this thread more closely. 

 

 

[Gweiloman]

40 minutes ago, JetsetBkk said:

Thanks for your polite response. 

No, I was not aware that LFP batteries contain no cobalt. 

That'll teach me not to follow this thread more closely. 

 

 

Did you mean to follow it more closely or not to follow it more closely?

 

It is very true that lithium ion/ternary batteries do contain cobalt though. They are generally termed NMC batteries, nickel, manganese, cobalt. Many responsible EV makers are moving to LFP which is supposedly also safer with less risk of thermal runaway.

 

However, when it comes to sourcing cobalt for EV batteries, I believe most of it is extracted via LSM (large scale mining) as opposed to ASM (artisanal small scale mining). If you’re interested, this is a good read.

https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/business/rethinking-artisanal-cobalt-mining-in-the-drc/48260638#:~:text=Cobalt extraction can be artisanal,such as Switzerland-based Glencore.

 

Factual with no over dramatisation like many videos.

 

[KhunLA]

23 minutes ago, Gweiloman said:

Factual with no over dramatisation like many videos.

 

Along with all the fake, false info, memes, vids out there.

Fine example:  the FAKE

 

The REALITY ...

 

 "December 8, 2018

Many people have reacted to the photo of a young boy bing used as a laborer on a construction site which they claim depicts how poverty in the country drives child labour"

[Yellowtail]

[KhunLA]

14 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

That's a favorite, used back as far as 2015, pick a cause, 'blood diamond' ... etc etc etc

 

(source)

 

[JetsetBkk]

8 hours ago, Gweiloman said:

Did you mean to follow it more closely or not to follow it more closely?

Sorry, I meant I should follow it more closely. I am actually thinking of buying a BYD Seal but the battery problems, if they exist, are making me consider something more like my avatar. 

[kwilco]

On 7/25/2023 at 8:21 PM, vinny41 said:

Remove all the petrochemical by products from EV's and what are you left with no glass, no dashboard, no seats, no carpets, no tyres. no rims, no steering wheel, no plastics, no rubber, no seat frames, no mirrors, no paint

...and do the same from ICEs? Must be something else then?