This thread is for Bops, our resident seeker, LOL (with great respect, Bops). The question was actually borne from his Crime Unt Punishment I:, Do You Support The Death Penatly thread, which seems to be dying a slow death.

So, the question, "What Is Love?" begs an answer.

The word "love" is perhaps the overall cheapest word in usage; ever. It is thrown around here, there, everywhere at any time and with the slightest of whims. It's definition has so many variants that it's almost impossible to believe that two people mean the same thing when they say, for instance, "I love you." If I said, for example, "Kayo, I love you," what does that really mean?

Love is more often than not used as a tool to get what is wanted. "Give me what I want from you, make me happy, and I will give you my love. Act in a way that displeases me, withhold from me that which I want from you, and I'll withdraw my love from you so quickly your head will spin at 10,000 RPM." Do you find yourself turning your love on and off as easily as you switch the lights on and off?

Do you give your love freely? Or do you give it only in expectation of receiving something in return? Is that true love, then? Or have you only placed conditions upon bestowing your love?

What is unconditional love? I think we've all been exposed to the concept that God loves us no matter what. In other words, despite commiting the vilest acts imaginable God would still love us. Why? How would this be possible? Does that concept infer that God would then never consider punishing us for our 'sins?' Are we, as humans, capable of displaying and expressing love to the same degree?

Is appreciation the same as love? A term that has much greater specific meaning and thus does not include the excess baggage associated with the term "love?"

Where does love come from? Love is purely subjective. It is not something concrete which you can hold in your hands. And it it is undeniably felt. What is it's source? Are we it's true source? Is this what we are, ultimately, when stripped of the plethora of beliefs which would prevent us from expressing ourselves as we truly exist? Or, is love merely a delusion of our senses?

And since we live in a world of seeming polarities, what of hate, the antithesis of love? Is it the flipside of the same coin? Being a subjective feeling the same as love is it any less, or more, valid? Does hate ultimately lead us to love? Are we capable of putting it in a proper perspective such that we would then allow ourselves to feel it momentarily before transmuting it to love? Can love 'dissolve' hate?

Well, I'll patiently wait for thorough answers to all of the above questions from Bops.

I know it's for Bops Tip, but I am going to throw one in quickly.

Love is being able to have a conversation with wifey about car insurance and being able to suppress the desire to strangle the living daylights out of her.

Hate is the emotion I feel when I remember the Thai driver last night that doesn't know what break-lights mean, especially the ones on the back of my car that illuminated while I was avoiding killing a dog.

Dog is love.

Love is something you give, without wanting anything in return.

Love is something you give, without wanting anything in return.

I wholeheartedly agree. But do we really practice it as such?

Has your mate ever requested that you run out on an errand for them, say, for a bite to eat, late at night after you've had a particular exhausting day only to receive the cold shoulder and a sourpuss face when you decline? And perhaps have these words thrown at you, "Well, I guess you don't really love me, then."

I think love routinely involves expectations - great expectations - and most of them are generally unspoken. In relationships, how often does it seem that you have to prove your love by way of ever-changing goalposts?

When my Mom died in April, I thought my father would come out to the East. His friends have sadly gone before him in the main and his knee's back etc do not do well with frost and to top it all he loves his Grand-kids to bits.

However, my Mother loved her garden and he will not leave her beloved flower beds to go to seed while he has a breath left.

Love.

this was when I realised true love

in Julie's last couple of years of her life.....she developed skin disease (amongst other things).....we had to shave off her hair....so visible was mixed patches of red and brown skin...wrinkly I must add.......and most of all she smelled even after just a day of bathing

I went home after many months and saw her in above conditions.....smell greeting me even before she could move but I could still pick her up in my arms and hugged her tight

love

for those that dont know...Julie is my dog....died last June when she turned 20.5years ancient at time of described incident...she was somewhere around 18plus. I miss her

This thread is for Bops, our resident seeker, LOL (with great respect, Bops). The question was actually borne from his Crime Unt Punishment I:, Do You Support The Death Penatly thread, which seems to be dying a slow death.

So, the question, "What Is Love?" begs an answer.

The word "love" is perhaps the overall cheapest word in usage; ever. It is thrown around here, there, everywhere at any time and with the slightest of whims. It's definition has so many variants that it's almost impossible to believe that two people mean the same thing when they say, for instance, "I love you." If I said, for example, "Kayo, I love you," what does that really mean?

Love is more often than not used as a tool to get what is wanted. "Give me what I want from you, make me happy, and I will give you my love. Act in a way that displeases me, withhold from me that which I want from you, and I'll withdraw my love from you so quickly your head will spin at 10,000 RPM." Do you find yourself turning your love on and off as easily as you switch the lights on and off?

,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Well, I'll patiently wait for thorough answers to all of the above questions from Bops.

I love you too Tippy. But I ain't free. A couple of thousand baht a day should cover it.

I love you too Tippy. But I ain't free. A couple of thousand baht a day should cover it.

Hmm . . . I think I'll opt for the wabbit stew at 395 baht instead.

Love is not for sale.

And if it is, it aint love.

O.K., I admit I did a piss poor job of conveying what I'm after in terms of a discussion. Let me try again.

As I mentioned in the OP the question was borne from Bops's thread on Crime and Punishment. Coincidentally, a news story from the U.S. was related to me while that thread was hot about an elderly woman who had been shot in the head during a robbery commited by three youths. Miraculously, she survived. Not only did she survive but the experience triggered, let's call it, an episode of enlightment for her.

Rather than walking away from the traumatic event with feelings of hatred she seemed instead to be filled with compassion and forgiveness. She went so far as to visit the triggerman in prison to extend her forgiveness and let him know that she felt no misgivings toward him. Her magnaminous act then triggered within the triggerman (yeah, excuse the pun) a radical change for his own betterment.

In other words, we have both the capacity for love and the capacity for hate. It is always up to us to choose which we will respond with. The results will, of course, be quite different.

Here's a personal story. At the time I was attending junior high school in the States 'greasers' were still a flourishing segment of society. For those who don't know what greasers are watch movies such as "Grease," "The Lords of Flatbush," and "the Outsiders." Or, Google the term. In short, greasers loved to rumble and cause general mayhem. And they especially had a strong dislike for "longhairs" in the late 60's and early 70's.

In any case, there was one particular greaser who decided to grind an axe with me. One day I walked out of school after classes were over and found him waiting for me. I walked up to him and very calmly began to reason with him. I can't recall specifically all that I said to him but I do remember mentioning that we could either be friends or enemies.

Well, something must have rung a bell in his head, he dropped his dukes and we ended up becoming pretty good friends. And from that moment on, and despite the fact that I was a "longhair," I became accepted among greasers in our school and even hung with them at times.

And to this day I think that the episode was the first to teach me how different outcomes may be if situations are not responded to with hate but rather with understanding and compassion.

So, maybe I shouldn't be asking, "What is love," but rather, "Do we love?" From many of the responses in Bops's thread I would say, no. In fact, it seems that many would relish the idea of the harshest forms of retribution. You know, two eyes for an eye and two teeth for a tooth. Is that desire rooted in hatred or in love? O.K., dumb question.

Ya'll bored yet???

This thread is for Bops, our resident seeker, LOL (with great respect, Bops). The question was actually borne from his Crime Unt Punishment I:, Do You Support The Death Penatly thread, which seems to be dying a slow death.

So, the question, "What Is Love?" begs an answer.

The word "love" is perhaps the overall cheapest word in usage; ever. It is thrown around here, there, everywhere at any time and with the slightest of whims. It's definition has so many variants that it's almost impossible to believe that two people mean the same thing when they say, for instance, "I love you." If I said, for example, "Kayo, I love you," what does that really mean?

Love is more often than not used as a tool to get what is wanted. "Give me what I want from you, make me happy, and I will give you my love. Act in a way that displeases me, withhold from me that which I want from you, and I'll withdraw my love from you so quickly your head will spin at 10,000 RPM." Do you find yourself turning your love on and off as easily as you switch the lights on and off?

Do you give your love freely? Or do you give it only in expectation of receiving something in return? Is that true love, then? Or have you only placed conditions upon bestowing your love?

What is unconditional love? I think we've all been exposed to the concept that God loves us no matter what. In other words, despite commiting the vilest acts imaginable God would still love us. Why? How would this be possible? Does that concept infer that God would then never consider punishing us for our 'sins?' Are we, as humans, capable of displaying and expressing love to the same degree?

Is appreciation the same as love? A term that has much greater specific meaning and thus does not include the excess baggage associated with the term "love?"

Where does love come from? Love is purely subjective. It is not something concrete which you can hold in your hands. And it it is undeniably felt. What is it's source? Are we it's true source? Is this what we are, ultimately, when stripped of the plethora of beliefs which would prevent us from expressing ourselves as we truly exist? Or, is love merely a delusion of our senses?

And since we live in a world of seeming polarities, what of hate, the antithesis of love? Is it the flipside of the same coin? Being a subjective feeling the same as love is it any less, or more, valid? Does hate ultimately lead us to love? Are we capable of putting it in a proper perspective such that we would then allow ourselves to feel it momentarily before transmuting it to love? Can love 'dissolve' hate?

Well, I'll patiently wait for thorough answers to all of the above questions from Bops.

Love = Duty, Honor and Respect.

You picked a topic I feel must be simplified to be grasped. If people use love as a currency, it isn't love. If people use love as punishment, it isn't love. If you can turn it off it isn't love. I know you have used examples of people who really don't know eachother, that isn't love either, that's campassion. I feel they are different. I will try to have compassion for someone I hate simply because they are human like me and they can suffer like me. I don't want to be the cause of suffering. So, love is more personnal then compassion. You and the geaser, compassion not love. A little compassion and reason saved the day.

Now, you have asked a lot of questions, ones that I will be happy to explore, I just can't explore all of them today. I will add that what relationship people are in will affect or be affected by the love they have for eachother, but with each person being different and thus each situation being different then many ideas of love may or may not apply. Like, does love dissolve into hate? Well, I would say one of them is a lie, you either hate them and lie about loving them or you really love them but lie about hating them. It's most likely that you do love them but are just angry with and want to cause them suffering so you fake hate, or confuse anger with hate.

I will come back to this later, but let me also add that love is a path defined by the individaul, like much in this world.

I liked this poem by Kahil Gibran about love.

Then said Almitra, "Speak to us of Love."

And he raised his head and looked upon the people, and there fell a stillness upon them. And with a great voice he said:

When love beckons to you follow him,

Though his ways are hard and steep.

And when his wings enfold you yield to him,

Though the sword hidden among his pinions may wound you.

And when he speaks to you believe in him,

Though his voice may shatter your dreams as the north wind lays waste the garden.

For even as love crowns you so shall he crucify you. Even as he is for your growth so is he for your pruning.

Even as he ascends to your height and caresses your tenderest branches that quiver in the sun,

So shall he descend to your roots and shake them in their clinging to the earth.

Like sheaves of corn he gathers you unto himself.

He threshes you to make you naked.

He sifts you to free you from your husks.

He grinds you to whiteness.

He kneads you until you are pliant;

And then he assigns you to his sacred fire, that you may become sacred bread for God's sacred feast.

All these things shall love do unto you that you may know the secrets of your heart, and in that knowledge become a fragment of Life's heart.

But if in your fear you would seek only love's peace and love's pleasure,

Then it is better for you that you cover your nakedness and pass out of love's threshing-floor,

Into the seasonless world where you shall laugh, but not all of your laughter, and weep, but not all of your tears.

Love gives naught but itself and takes naught but from itself.

Love possesses not nor would it be possessed;

For love is sufficient unto love.

When you love you should not say, "God is in my heart," but rather, I am in the heart of God."

And think not you can direct the course of love, for love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.

Love has no other desire but to fulfil itself.

But if you love and must needs have desires, let these be your desires:

To melt and be like a running brook that sings its melody to the night.

To know the pain of too much tenderness.

To be wounded by your own understanding of love;

And to bleed willingly and joyfully.

To wake at dawn with a winged heart and give thanks for another day of loving;

To rest at the noon hour and meditate love's ecstasy;

To return home at eventide with gratitude;

And then to sleep with a prayer for the beloved in your heart and a song of praise upon your lips.

Love is like a big oily bucket.

Once you have fallen in it. It's hard to get out, no matter how hard you try.

...the fruit of the Spirit is love, (then love is sub-divided into) joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.

Galatians 5:22

...the fruit of the Spirit is love, (then love is sub-divided into) joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.

Galatians 5:22

Admit it ! You got that out of a book !

Edit :

I looked up the page to see what Google Adsense thought love was about.

The answer is "health insurance".

Is your loved one insured ?

Edit 2 :

Sorry , scrub that , now it's Thai ladies.

With health insurance ?

Score 1 point for health insurance , 1 point for Thai and 1 point for lady.

Score below 1 and you are not in love.

Invented in the Romantic period to sell valentine cards?

Invented in the Romantic period to sell valentine cards?

Sure you don't mean the Hallmark period , you crazy romantic anarchist fool you ?

Some say I'm a cynic, they're probably right.

Some say I'm a cynic, they're probably right.

Some say you're a cynic??? I don't believe it!!!

...the fruit of the Spirit is love, (then love is sub-divided into) joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.

Galatians 5:22

Admit it ! You got that out of a book !

Only FS would have the galacity to say that.

Love is a tough one. I agree with comments above, but quite strange that, say, for example, a couple gets divorced, their hatred for each other can be as strong as their love once was. Or perhaps that is unbridled passion versus venomous rage.

I love Tippaporn, too. Anyone who has a ginger kitty at the dog gate for an avatar is in my heart. I love ginger kitties.

Love = Duty, Honor and Respect.

You picked a topic I feel must be simplified to be grasped. If people use love as a currency, it isn't love. If people use love as punishment, it isn't love. If you can turn it off it isn't love. I know you have used examples of people who really don't know eachother, that isn't love either, that's campassion. I feel they are different. I will try to have compassion for someone I hate simply because they are human like me and they can suffer like me. I don't want to be the cause of suffering. So, love is more personnal then compassion. You and the geaser, compassion not love. A little compassion and reason saved the day.

Now, you have asked a lot of questions, ones that I will be happy to explore, I just can't explore all of them today. I will add that what relationship people are in will affect or be affected by the love they have for eachother, but with each person being different and thus each situation being different then many ideas of love may or may not apply. Like, does love dissolve into hate? (I asked, "Does love dissolve hate.) Well, I would say one of them is a lie, you either hate them and lie about loving them or you really love them but lie about hating them. It's most likely that you do love them but are just angry with and want to cause them suffering so you fake hate, or confuse anger with hate.

I will come back to this later, but let me also add that love is a path defined by the individaul, like much in this world.

All in all, I would contend that most people are confused about love - what it truly is and what it is not. And especially when it comes to practicing love. Now, that certainly includes me, too. I have been avidly questioning for a long time, though, and the more I learn the more questions I seem to have. Most of my questions regard the application of love in all aspects of daily life.

When am I being loving and when am I not? As a human, what's my ultimate capacity to love? Could I ever become pure love? And is pure love what I really am?

Silly questions? Not to me. I see what love can accomplish. I see what hate can accomplish. The differences are stark, indeed. And since it's my life, and only my life, and since it's my choice, and only my choice, then what do I prefer to choose for my life. Hate or love? How would it affect the quality and value fulfillment of my life?

I'll relate a rather bizarre experience I had some years back. I was in a situation where love was taken away from me. It was a deeply painful experience. One night while I was at work I again found myself in the midst of profound agony. Sitting almost doubled over on the toilet, which was the only place I knew I would have privacy, I began to feel intense love directed towards me. And I mean intense. Where the <deleted> it came from I can't say for sure, though I have my ideas about it.

I consider myself as rational and skeptical as most anyone but the feeling, the experience, was undeniable. After a few moments into this experience I got up and walked out into the factory. Amazement took over as I felt this same degree of love for everyone I looked at, regardless of what my normal feelings for and opinions of the persons were, even for those I didn't particularly hold high. I remember feeling almost ashamed that I would see them in any other light. I had trouble containing my tears and fought hard to keep myself from outright bawling. The intensity of feeling lasted perhaps 20 minutes before I felt 'normalcy' returning.

Since then I yearn for a return to that feeling. It comes back now and again, usually when I allow myself to love, but never yet to that same degree. So now I've become a proponent of love. Perhaps there's such a thing as comprehension which needs no supportive rationalization. You simply know. But that doesn't prevent you from attempting to rationalize it anyway.

An eye for eye and a tooth for a tooth? Naw. I just don't think it works. The Arabs and Israelites have been practicing that philosophy for how long now? I don't think true answers can be found if they are not rooted in love. Nor do I believe true answers could ever be understood by any who insist on solving problems through hatred.

Does that open up the floor?

Love is a tough one. I agree with comments above, but quite strange that, say, for example, a couple gets divorced, their hatred for each other can be as strong as their love once was. Or perhaps that is unbridled passion versus venomous rage.

I love Tippaporn, too. Anyone who has a ginger kitty at the dog gate for an avatar is in my heart. I love ginger kitties.

I love pussies, Jet. Hmm . . . not sure if that came out right. Seriously, I do love cats. They seem to have this "what, me worry?" give-a-<deleted> attitude. Turns some people off, I imagine, but it's something I can identify with.

Back on topic. I was going to bring up divorce, break-ups, but figured someone else would soon enough. In cases where hatred replaces love where does the love go? I believe it's still there and will always be there. My feeling is that it's all about focus and the focus has been turned to hate. Nothing can produce hatred as much as hurt can. And yet despite the hurt I believe that the focus must remain on the love. Else what have you?

I find it interesting that so many couples cease appreciating each other over the course of a relationship. There will naturally always be conflicts within any relationship but generally during any conflict love is totally forgotten. How odd we are.

Could it be that in relationships where 'love turns to hate' that love never existed in the first place? Just something we perceived as love whilst it was happening. Any thoughts?

Could it be that in relationships where 'love turns to hate' that love never existed in the first place? Just something we perceived as love whilst it was happening. Any thoughts?

Speaking from my own personal experience, I'd say no. My ex-wife and I ended our relationship after 13 years. I loved her dearly while we were married but once the music stopped and the dance was over she turned into the wicked witch of the west. I responded in turn and let me tell you, it was ugggglllllyyyy! We had many confrontations that had me seething with unmitigated hate.

Interestingly, though, she did confide in me a one point after our divorce was finalized that she never loved me. I laughed the remark off to her face because I knew it wasn't true. It had already been evident to me that she was taking herself through some major personality changes. Bless her heart, if that's what she wanted to have herself believe then that was her rightful choice. It didn't matter to me any longer.

I don't feel that hatred towards her any longer and can still remember the love we had shared. But I simply don't much think about her these days.

Could it be that in relationships where 'love turns to hate' that love never existed in the first place? Just something we perceived as love whilst it was happening. Any thoughts?

Speaking from my own personal experience, I'd say no. My ex-wife and I ended our relationship after 13 years. I loved her dearly while we were married but once the music stopped and the dance was over she turned into the wicked witch of the west. I responded in turn and let me tell you, it was ugggglllllyyyy! We had many confrontations that had me seething with unmitigated hate.

Interestingly, though, she did confide in me a one point after our divorce was finalized that she never loved me. I laughed the remark off to her face because I knew it wasn't true. It had already been evident to me that she was taking herself through some major personality changes. Bless her heart, if that's what she wanted to have herself believe then that was her rightful choice. It didn't matter to me any longer.

I don't feel that hatred towards her any longer and can still remember the love we had shared. But I simply don't much think about her these days.

Wow Tipp, sad story. I'm glad you've pulled through okay. I suppose that's called 'getting over it', if one ever properly does!

Be happy, all the best...

Crikey, Bedlam really does delve into the depths of the human psyche huh?

I think its very personal and different for everyone but love makes me want to provide health, care, opportunities, security, luxuries, food, shelter, back rubs, personal sacrifices whatever, it is the joy you get just to make someone else happy and to have that peace of mind to know that they are safe from harm.

I have often thought whether there is more to it though, as I have never been struck in the manner that Tip relates, perhaps there is as my love for my wife certainly includes all that I mentioned above and then some, its just that extra "then some" that I have trouble defining.

its just that extra "then some" that I have trouble defining.

Yep and that's the beauty of Love, it's too hard and complex to define.

I am sorry

I love you

Words or meanings?

Wow Tipp, sad story. I'm glad you've pulled through okay. I suppose that's called 'getting over it', if one ever properly does!

Be happy, all the best...

Thanks for sympathizing, suegha, but not a totally sad story. Even somewhat humourous when I look back now. Yes, I got over her. For about a year after our breakup I awoke each morning pining for her. But she showed me such different colors during the course of that year that I then awoke each morning thanking God I was no longer married to the b*tch. She's not really a b*tch, though . . . only if she doesn't like you. I just happened to have my name carved in blood at the top of her list of favourite assh*les to torment.

Crikey, Bedlam really does delve into the depths of the human psyche huh?

I think its very personal and different for everyone but love makes me want to provide health, care, opportunities, security, luxuries, food, shelter, back rubs, personal sacrifices whatever, it is the joy you get just to make someone else happy and to have that peace of mind to know that they are safe from harm.

I have often thought whether there is more to it though, as I have never been struck in the manner that Tip relates, perhaps there is as my love for my wife certainly includes all that I mentioned above and then some, its just that extra "then some" that I have trouble defining.

You sound like a fortunate man, quicksilva, and I'm happy to hear. I know what you're talking about, too. I had a relationship once for five years and I never lost the 'puppy love' feeling. Every time I saw her I felt the same excitement I did seeing her for the first time. It never got stale and monotony never set in. Woke up every morning asking myself how I could help make her happy that day. How deliciously sweet love can be (and with no fear of weight gain or rotting teeth ).

The question, though, is how open do we leave ourselves to love during stormy weather? Do we immediately shut our love down at the slightest hint friction? Do we lose respect for our mate to the point where we can now behave as ignoble as we please? Do we easily forget all that we appreciate about the other and begin to focus strictly on the dislikes? Do we show them the best of ourselves at these times?

To love is easy when everything is right and going well and we're supremely and contentedly happy. I think the real test of love is when you can still love despite being pained by another. Sadly for many this is when love so easily turns to an enduring hatred. Being able to leave your heart open is an exquisite artform in itself.

The question, though, is how open do we leave ourselves to love during stormy weather? Do we immediately shut our love down at the slightest hint friction? Do we lose respect for our mate to the point where we can now behave as ignoble as we please? Do we easily forget all that we appreciate about the other and begin to focus strictly on the dislikes? Do we show them the best of ourselves at these times?

To love is easy when everything is right and going well and we're supremely and contentedly happy. I think the real test of love is when you can still love despite being pained by another. Sadly for many this is when love so easily turns to an enduring hatred. Being able to leave your heart open is an exquisite artform in itself.

Thanks Thip, and Im equally pleased that you have moved on now. At the end of the day the secret to a full life is happiness and if you are both happier apart than together then its for the best.

I agree about what you said regarding when things are not going well (and lets face it we all have those times when the darker shades of our characters see the light of the day) and yes it can be very difficult. I think you almost have to physical take stock of your situation and remind yourself that despite the "warts and all" , those true feelings for your partner are still simmering away underneath.

I think that the critical thing here is that you actually have to want to take stock of your situation. When you don't want to embrace all those feelings any more I think they sadly start to cool. This is why I think they say that you have to work at a relationship, and whilst its only been 7 years we have definitely had those moments when we have had to work at it.