Assault on Kiev: Russian helicopters swoop above Ukraine's capital

[tgw]

5 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Their are crazies on Russian TV daily spouting their rhetoric but it also extends to education.

 

Andrei Sidorov of Moscow State University who happens to be the Dean of the School of World Politics dept said this:

 

"I am not sure that #Ukraine, like many other small states, should retain its #sovereignty after our special operation. In today's world, sovereignty is based, whether we like it or not, on force".

he's a visionary.

I'm sure NATO could consider let Russia join once it has been denazified

[tgw]

52 minutes ago, JetsetBkk said:

What a horrific video from the BBC. I wonder if they will also show the video of Ukrainian soldiers shooting Russian POWs in the legs as they exit a small van?

https://www.bbc.com/news/60907259

[Rimmer]

Troll post removed

[JetsetBkk]

55 minutes ago, Chris.B said:

Link?? ????

I'm sure you know how to use Google. Try Googling:  "Ukrainian soldiers shoot Russian POWs in legs"

 

I get just over a million results.

[Chris.B]

7 minutes ago, JetsetBkk said:

I'm sure you know how to use Google. Try Googling:  "Ukrainian soldiers shoot Russian POWs in legs"

 

I get just over a million results.

Fake news ☹️

 

[Chris.B]

To think, we in the UK used to be fearful of the Russian Army with its 12,000 tanks...

 

Russian Army tanks

 

Daily Mail

 

[Chris.B]

Heart warming video from the front.... ????

 

Heroes welcome for advancing Ukrainian troops in village

 

[Bkk Brian]

50 minutes ago, Chris.B said:

Heart warming video from the front.... ????

 

Heroes welcome for advancing Ukrainian troops in village

 

More good news here................

 

UK missile shoots down first Russian helicopter in Ukraine war

 

Britain’s most advanced portable missile system is thought to have shot down a Russian helicopter in its first use on the Ukrainian battlefield.

 

Starstreak, a high-velocity projectile that destroys targets with three kinetic darts, was filmed cutting the aircraft in two over the Luhansk region in the east of the country.

 

Footage of the attack shows the tungsten spears breaking the tail off the Mi-28N, after Ukrainians using British techniques opened fire.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/uk-missile-shoots-down-first-russian-helicopter-in-ukraine-war-tztnmxqr2

 

Video of the strike is here:

"The Times is reporting that this shootdown of a Russian Mi-28 was by a British Starstreak SAM"

 

https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1510094022970417160

 

[GroveHillWanderer]

On 4/1/2022 at 3:41 PM, tgw said:

military officers unaware of where they are?

I doubt if it was the officers that were digging the trenches in the radiation-contaminated areas. That would have been the more lowly conscripts.

 

And some of them have indeed admitted they had no idea where they were being sent and thought they were going on military exercises.

[impulse]

12 hours ago, heybruce said:

On what do you base your assumption that the majority of citizens in Crimea and Donbas didn't/don't want to be part of Ukraine?  Were they ever allowed to express their preference in a fair, independently monitored election?

 

I've read reports that suggest that the warlords supporting Russia in Donbas are gangsters who expect to come out well ahead in the corruption stick by doing so..  I can't prove it, but you can't prove your speculation either.  After all, Russia is more corrupt than Ukraine

 

Yes, Russia has been brewing this mess for decades.  It has been working to keep Ukraine a profitable part of the Russian kleptocracy since Putin came to power.

In Donbas, it's impossible to tell because of the propaganda on both sides.  In Crimea, 2 separate western companies did surveys a year after the annexation and both found over 80% of Crimeans wanted to stay aligned with Russia.  Not hard to extrapolate that to believe it may be the same in Donbas.

That doesn't justify what Putin did.  It just puts it into a context.  If you don't understand the history, you can't possibly understand what's happening today, or find solutions to it.  Or you can believe only that propaganda that caters to your pre-conceived notions, based on hundreds of Rambo and 007 and Red Dawn type movies...

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2015/03/20/one-year-after-russia-annexed-crimea-locals-prefer-moscow-to-kiev/?sh=62e97ce0510d

[GroveHillWanderer]

22 hours ago, Hellfire said:

Is the West really ready for the Ukraine's victory? Not sure. Many in the West would prefer Ukraine being defeated. Because, otherwise, they should face the numerous consequences: nuclear threats by crazy Vlad, Russia's deconstruction, serious global instability and so on. My opinion: deeply hedonistic West is not ready to face any of those scenarios. Prove me wrong.

Nobody has to prove you wrong. You have made a claim without providing any evidence to support it.

 

Therefore your claim can be dismissed without evidence.

 

In any event, by the rules of logic and common sense, it's up to the person making the claim to prove it, it's not up to others to disprove it.

[friendofthai]

1 minute ago, impulse said:

In Crimea, 2 separate western companies did surveys a year after the annexation and both found over 80% of Crimeans wanted to stay aligned with Russia.

Yes, It is true. Is it important?
Let's imagine there is a family who stole your house. Are you wondering what percentage of people in this family support the stealing? I am sure you are not. Police officers also are not. It simply does not matter for anyone.

[balo]

4 hours ago, Chris.B said:

Fake news ☹️

 

It's not fake news, it has been confirmed by several sources. Twitter still have the video up.  But you have to understand, shooting them in the leg is not the same as killing them. 

Of course in a war situation like this, when you see your city being bombed and your own people die, you will react to it.  

[impulse]

9 minutes ago, balo said:

It's not fake news, it has been confirmed by several sources. Twitter still have the video up.  But you have to understand, shooting them in the leg is not the same as killing them. 

Of course in a war situation like this, when you see your city being bombed and your own people die, you will react to it.  

I can't think of a much better incentive to force your enemy to fight even harder before considering surrender.

 

 

[Chris.B]

12 minutes ago, impulse said:

I can't think of a much better incentive to force your enemy to fight even harder before considering surrender.

 

34 minutes ago, balo said:

It's not fake news, it has been confirmed by several sources. Twitter still have the video up.  But you have to understand, shooting them in the leg is not the same as killing them. 

 

Fake news and made worse by people like yourselves who try to give it credibility. ????

 

 

[Bkk Brian]

A former chief prosecutor for UN war crimes tribunals has called for Russian President Vladimir Putin to be arrested over the invasion of Ukraine.

 

Switzerland's Carla Del Ponte said international arrest warrants should be issued against Putin and other senior Russian officials.

"Putin is a war criminal,"

 

Del Ponte served as chief prosecutor on the UN international criminal tribunals for the former Yugoslavia and for Rwanda.

An investigation into possible war crimes in Ukraine was launched last month after Russia was accused of bombing civilians. The International Criminal Court (ICC) chief prosecutor, the UK's Karim Khan, said evidence was being collected on alleged war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60949706

[thaibeachlovers]

6 hours ago, GroveHillWanderer said:

Nobody has to prove you wrong. You have made a claim without providing any evidence to support it.

 

Therefore your claim can be dismissed without evidence.

 

In any event, by the rules of logic and common sense, it's up to the person making the claim to prove it, it's not up to others to disprove it.

Plenty of unsupported claims being made on here, but because they are of the "correct" side not being held to account for it, IMO.

[thaibeachlovers]

6 hours ago, balo said:

It's not fake news, it has been confirmed by several sources. Twitter still have the video up.  But you have to understand, shooting them in the leg is not the same as killing them. 

Of course in a war situation like this, when you see your city being bombed and your own people die, you will react to it.  

and if a Russian soldier sees his comrades being shot in the legs on tv how do you think he is going to behave next time he wins a battle?

That's why there are rules of war.

[thaibeachlovers]

10 hours ago, Chris.B said:

To think, we in the UK used to be fearful of the Russian Army with its 12,000 tanks...

 

Russian Army tanks

 

Daily Mail

 

Perhaps that was before the time of masses of man portable tank killers that work.

Used to be a time that battleships were regarded as the ultimate war weapon, but aircraft made them obsolete.

[heybruce]

8 hours ago, impulse said:

In Donbas, it's impossible to tell because of the propaganda on both sides.  In Crimea, 2 separate western companies did surveys a year after the annexation and both found over 80% of Crimeans wanted to stay aligned with Russia.  Not hard to extrapolate that to believe it may be the same in Donbas.

That doesn't justify what Putin did.  It just puts it into a context.  If you don't understand the history, you can't possibly understand what's happening today, or find solutions to it.  Or you can believe only that propaganda that caters to your pre-conceived notions, based on hundreds of Rambo and 007 and Red Dawn type movies...

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2015/03/20/one-year-after-russia-annexed-crimea-locals-prefer-moscow-to-kiev/?sh=62e97ce0510d

Actually it would be easy to tell.

 

Why not a peace treaty that allows all the citizens of that lived in the occupied regions to vote on being part of Ukraine or Russia?  These would have to be fair, internationally monitored election with no opportunities to rig the results.  Crimea might elect to become part of Russia.  I doubt that Donbas would.

 

Of course there is no way that Russia would agree to these elections.  It is conducting a smash and grab of Ukrainian territory and won't let elections get in its way.

 

Your ignorant and arrogant assumption that you are better informed than me is noted.  I get my news from the BBC app (not television), The Economist, The Washington Post, and other credible print sources.  If you consider these propaganda there is little point in debating a mind as closed as yours.

[Credo]

25 minutes ago, heybruce said:

Actually it would be easy to tell.

 

Why not a peace treaty that allows all the citizens of that lived in the occupied regions to vote on being part of Ukraine or Russia?  These would have to be fair, internationally monitored election with no opportunities to rig the results.  Crimea might elect to become part of Russia.  I doubt that Donbas would.

 

Of course there is no way that Russia would agree to these elections.  It is conducting a smash and grab of Ukrainian territory and won't let elections get in its way.

 

Your ignorant and arrogant assumption that you are better informed than me is noted.  I get my news from the BBC app (not television), The Economist, The Washington Post, and other credible print sources.  If you consider these propaganda there is little point in debating a mind as closed as yours.

If people want to live in Russia, then move to Russia.  They are living in Ukraine.   

[Jingthing]

6 minutes ago, Credo said:

If people want to live in Russia, then move to Russia.  They are living in Ukraine.   

I agree. This Russian propaganda that Russian speakers in Ukraine deserve to have their land annexed is total bull. Russia without ALL of Ukraine is a massive country. Any Ukrainian Russian speakers that wish to be Russian could be invited to be Russian IN RUSSIA. Putin is acting like Hitler did in trying to rationalize invading the German speaking areas of Czechoslovakia. Hitler was wrong then, Putin in wrong now. Don't be fooled by any Russian propaganda. Putin is on record that ALL of Ukraine doesn't even exist as a separate nation. 

[Credo]

12 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

I agree. This Russian propaganda that Russian speakers in Ukraine deserve to have their land annexed is total bull. Russia without ALL of Ukraine is a massive country. Any Ukrainian Russian speakers that wish to be Russian could be invited to be Russian IN RUSSIA. Putin is acting like Hitler did in trying to rationalize invading the German speaking areas of Czechoslovakia. Hitler was wrong then, Putin in wrong now. Don't be fooled by any Russian propaganda. Putin is on record that ALL of Ukraine doesn't even exist as a separate nation. 

I believe that Russian speakers in Donbas are given Russian citizenship.   I know that many were evacuated out of the fighting to Russia.

 

[Chomper Higgot]

11 hours ago, impulse said:

In Donbas, it's impossible to tell because of the propaganda on both sides.  In Crimea, 2 separate western companies did surveys a year after the annexation and both found over 80% of Crimeans wanted to stay aligned with Russia.  Not hard to extrapolate that to believe it may be the same in Donbas.

That doesn't justify what Putin did.  It just puts it into a context.  If you don't understand the history, you can't possibly understand what's happening today, or find solutions to it.  Or you can believe only that propaganda that caters to your pre-conceived notions, based on hundreds of Rambo and 007 and Red Dawn type movies...

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2015/03/20/one-year-after-russia-annexed-crimea-locals-prefer-moscow-to-kiev/?sh=62e97ce0510d

Polls conducted in June 2014, just five months after the Ukrainians had thrown out the Russian puppet government and while Ukraine was still itself very much in political turmoil.

 

But like you say, ‘preconceptions’ and ‘propaganda’ have a part to play. 
 

I wonder what news people living in the Crimea were being fed over this period?

 

Regardless, it’s what the people in Ukrainian think right now that matters.

 

[Chomper Higgot]

2 hours ago, Credo said:

I believe that Russian speakers in Donbas are given Russian citizenship.   I know that many were evacuated out of the fighting to Russia.

 

Good luck to them, I hope they are happy in their new home.

[Chomper Higgot]

4 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

and if a Russian soldier sees his comrades being shot in the legs on tv how do you think he is going to behave next time he wins a battle?

That's why there are rules of war.

Not much from you on the credible reports of Russian atrocities, including raping women in areas they control.

 

Rules of war work both ways comrade.

 

[Chomper Higgot]

4 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Perhaps that was before the time of masses of man portable tank killers that work.

Used to be a time that battleships were regarded as the ultimate war weapon, but aircraft made them obsolete.

Somebody seems not to have told the Russians about this.

[Bkk Brian]

11 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

A former chief prosecutor for UN war crimes tribunals has called for Russian President Vladimir Putin to be arrested over the invasion of Ukraine.

 

Switzerland's Carla Del Ponte said international arrest warrants should be issued against Putin and other senior Russian officials.

"Putin is a war criminal,"

 

Del Ponte served as chief prosecutor on the UN international criminal tribunals for the former Yugoslavia and for Rwanda.

An investigation into possible war crimes in Ukraine was launched last month after Russia was accused of bombing civilians. The International Criminal Court (ICC) chief prosecutor, the UK's Karim Khan, said evidence was being collected on alleged war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60949706

Some truly sickening videos and photos of the murdered civilians lying in the streets, hands tied behind their back, men women, children and  mass graves in area's that the Russian forces left behind in the hours before.

 

This first tweet from a Ukraine Ambassador to Austria in part sums it up:

 

Yesterday was a good day - #Russia was chased away from #Kyiv oblast. Today is a bad day: we saw what it left behind. As someone who speaks Russian as one of my mother tongues & who likes Russian culture, I’m literally speechless. Forget Tolstoy & Tchaikovsky. Russia means barbarism now.

 

“We found 18 bodies in there,” he said. “They had been torturing people. Some of them had their ears cut off. Others had teeth pulled out. There were kids, 14, 16 years old, some adults”

 

Bodies of mutilated children among horrors the Russians left behind

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/bodies-of-mutilated-children-among-horrors-the-russians-left-behind-5ddnkkwp2

 

2 women and 4 men were shot in the nape. Some have their hands tied behind their backs. This is Motyzhyn in Kyiv oblast, local telegram channel reports. This is genocide. Systemic massive execution of people only because they are Ukrainians

 

Hardened as we are by Russian atrocities, reports coming in from liberated towns around Kyiv document acts of horrifying, inhuman cruelty and evil, coaches of children used as human shields; corpses left on streets of civilians with hands tied behind back, many shot in head.

 

300 person mass grave. 5 dead bodies of naked women in the middle of the road. Looted houses. More bodies everywhere. Destroyed buildings. #Bucha #Irpin after #Russia retreats

 

Horrific scenes from the Ukrainian city of Bucha. Bodies of civilians massacred by Russian troops are scattered all over the city.

[Bkk Brian]

By transferring Soviet made tanks, the Biden administration makes clear what it thinks about Macron’s “red line”. “Emmanuel Macron, has declared that providing Ukraine with tanks and planes would cross a ‘red line’ turning nato into a ‘co-belligerent’.”

 

US will reportedly help Ukraine by sending Soviet-made tanks

The deliveries will enable Ukraine to conduct long-range artillery strikes, the New York Times reports.

[tgw]

Hundreds of murdered civilians discovered as Russians withdraw from towns near Kyiv (GRAPHIC IMAGES)

 

https://kyivindependent.com/national/hundreds-of-murdered-civilians-discovered-as-russians-withdraw-from-towns-near-kyiv-graphic-images/