Assault on Kiev: Russian helicopters swoop above Ukraine's capital

[nauseus]

11 minutes ago, heybruce said:

My sources are dated weeks before and after Russia's invasion, and Economist news magazine is one of the world's most respected sources by those who wish to stay informed about global news.  These sources describe the situation at the time of the invasion.  You know, the time pertinent to this discussion.

 

I supported my claim with sources.  As predicted, you didn't.

And your goalposts are as shifty as ever.

 

This started with your idea that Biden united NATO, then that he warned everybody, finally finishing with a testament to the Economist. Your "weeks before" invasion were mostly about 1-2 - not much of a warning - and by which time any intelligence Biden had would have been shared with NATO and probably leaked out to Ukraine as well. Zelensky would have had more inside track info than anyone and must have known enough to prepare for the worst as best he could, whatever he said. Most of us were hoping that this would not happen as was he, I'm sure. 

[connda]

Posted February 24, 2022

Assault on Kiev: Russian helicopters swoop above Ukraine's capital as Putin launches all-out invasion from north, south and east, with cruise missiles hitting airports and military bases, tanks rolling in and scores killed.

That's a bit dated. 

[Thingamabob]

5 minutes ago, rudi49jr said:

You just said the war would have been over if the West hadn’t stuck their nose in. Which would have meant the obliteration of Ukraine. 

Taday a massive air and land attack has  been launched by Russia, with Russian military helicopters already controlling the air space over Kiev. I am beginning to think the West's intervention has made this conflict far worse than it would otherwise have been. 

[placeholder]

9 minutes ago, Thingamabob said:

Taday a massive air and land attack has  been launched by Russia, with Russian military helicopters already controlling the air space over Kiev. I am beginning to think the West's intervention has made this conflict far worse than it would otherwise have been. 

Are you experiencing a flashback?

[stevenl]

10 minutes ago, Thingamabob said:

Taday a massive air and land attack has  been launched by Russia, with Russian military helicopters already controlling the air space over Kiev. I am beginning to think the West's intervention has made this conflict far worse than it would otherwise have been. 

What's your source, are you reading 1 year old news?

[rudi49jr]

3 minutes ago, Thingamabob said:

Taday a massive air and land attack has  been launched by Russia, with Russian military helicopters already controlling the air space over Kiev. I am beginning to think the West's intervention has made this conflict far worse than it would otherwise have been. 

You must be getting your news from different news outlets, because I can’t find anything about a Russian offensive (other than those which have failed or stalled), much less about Russian military helicopters controlling air space over Kyiv. 

But even if that were so: should we have just let the Russians do what they wanted and looked the other way from the start? Ukraine would now have been Russian, ethnic cleansing would be in full swing, not to mention that Russia would now be plotting their next move, probably against the Baltics. 

[nauseus]

31 minutes ago, stevenl said:

Your link shows Trump was played. It also shows Trump was in charge, he should have withdrawn from the deal. 

It shows the Taliban did not honour the agreement. I agree that Trump should have withdrawn from the deal but after Trump did not, then Biden should have suspended the agreement and overseen an orderly withdrawal. 

[stevenl]

6 minutes ago, nauseus said:

It shows the Taliban did not honour the agreement. I agree that Trump should have withdrawn from the deal but after Trump did not, then Biden should have suspended the agreement and overseen an orderly withdrawal. 

So first he was played, then he didn't withdraw (he couldn't of course because that would hurt his ego) but you still want to blame Biden.

Edited February 24, 2023 by stevenl

[nauseus]

50 minutes ago, placeholder said:

If that's the case, then the Taliban broke its word during the Trump administration. So it was OK for Trump to ignore that but not Biden?

I didn't say that - see post above.

[nauseus]

48 minutes ago, heybruce said:

Yeah, why didn't Trump do something about that?  You know, renegotiate or back out of his peace deal?

 

Did you notice your source is dated March 2, 2020, when Trump still had almost a year left in office?

June. They were trying to rescue the deal but obviously wasting their time.

[rudi49jr]

3 minutes ago, stevenl said:

So first he was played, then he didn't withdraw (he couldn't of course because that would hurt his ego) but you still want to blame Biden.

It’s the classic right-wing playbook: taking credit for things they had absolutely nothing to do with, and blaming others for their own screwups. Donald Trump and his cult followers had/have that down to a tee. 

[nauseus]

49 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Some should send nauseus a petard to hoist himself by.

Hilarious. Support the illiterate then, I don't care.

[nauseus]

40 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

We are helping Ukraine. 

 

 

Well, make your mind up!

Edited February 24, 2023 by nauseus

[Neeranam]

35 minutes ago, rudi49jr said:

You just said the war would have been over if the West hadn’t stuck their nose in. Which would have meant the obliteration of Ukraine. 

My point was we shouldn't help them, it has nothing to do with us, well Thailand. UK, nearer but they're is no alliance with them. 

Russia and Ukraine are much the same people and should fight their own wars and not being others into it. Mind you, Biden stirred it up and. 

[Neeranam]

3 minutes ago, rudi49jr said:

It’s the classic right-wing playbook: taking credit for things they had absolutely nothing to do with, and blaming others for their own screwups. Donald Trump and his cult followers had/have that down to a tee. 

There would be world peace if Trump was still there. 

70 million odd are not a cult. 

[rudi49jr]

1 minute ago, Neeranam said:

My point was we shouldn't help them, it has nothing to do with us, well Thailand. UK, nearer but they're is no alliance with them. 

Russia and Ukraine are much the same people and should fight their own wars and not being others into it. Mind you, Biden stirred it up and. 

It has everything to do with us. If we didn’t help Ukraine, that would lead to Russia getting bolder and bolder, the bully being rewarded for his aggression. And Biden didn’t stir up anything, this is all on Putin and his clique.

[placeholder]

17 minutes ago, nauseus said:

It shows the Taliban did not honour the agreement. I agree that Trump should have withdrawn from the deal but after Trump did not, then Biden should have suspended the agreement and overseen an orderly withdrawal. 

Not only did Trump not withdraw from the deal, but he accelerated the withdrawal of American troops after it was revealed that the Taliban was still associating with Al Qaeda. That's how bad his performance was.

[nauseus]

19 minutes ago, stevenl said:

So first he was played, then he didn't withdraw (he couldn't of course because that would hurt his ego) but you still want to blame Biden.

I think both Trump and Biden wanted out of Afghanistan, which is understandable. It seems that they both wanted the job completed at dates to suit their own political preferences. I do think Trump should have got out of (or suspended) the deal, as I said (above) once it was clear that the deal was not being honoured but I also think thqt Biden must shoulder some responsibility.  

Edited February 24, 2023 by nauseus

[Neeranam]

32 minutes ago, rudi49jr said:

Ukraine would now have been Russian, ethnic cleansing

Aren't the all the same ethnicity? 

[placeholder]

45 minutes ago, nauseus said:

And your goalposts are as shifty as ever.

 

This started with your idea that Biden united NATO, then that he warned everybody, finally finishing with a testament to the Economist. Your "weeks before" invasion were mostly about 1-2 - not much of a warning - and by which time any intelligence Biden had would have been shared with NATO and probably leaked out to Ukraine as well. Zelensky would have had more inside track info than anyone and must have known enough to prepare for the worst as best he could, whatever he said. Most of us were hoping that this would not happen as was he, I'm sure. 

An article from Dec 1, 2021

US warns Russia has plans for ‘large scale’ attack on Ukraine

The US says it has evidence Russia has made plans for a “large scale” attack on Ukraine and that Nato allies are “prepared to impose severe costs” on Moscow if it attempts an invasion.

Speaking at a Nato ministers meeting in Latvia, the US secretary of state, Antony Blinken, said it was unclear whether Vladimir Putin had made a decision to invade but added: “He’s putting in place the capacity to do so in short order, should he so decide.

“So despite uncertainty about intention and timing, we must prepare for all contingencies while working to see to it that Russia reverses course.”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/dec/01/us-warns-russia-plans-large-scale-attack-on-ukraine

[Neeranam]

33 minutes ago, rudi49jr said:

But even if that were so: should we have just let the Russians do what they wanted and looked the other way from the start?

Do you mean like we did when China invaded Tibet? 

Ah, no oil there. 

 

What Russia have done is less serious than what Bush and Blair did in Iraq. 

[stevenl]

9 minutes ago, nauseus said:

I think both Trump and Biden wanted out of Afghanistan, which is understandable. It seems that they both wanted the job completed at dates to suit their own political preferences. I do think Trump should have got out of (or suspended) the deal, as I said (above) once it was clear that the deal was not being honoured but I also think thqt Biden must shoulder some responsibility.  

Thanks, that's a much more balanced view than you postulated earlier.

[rudi49jr]

Just now, Neeranam said:

Aren't the all the same ethnicity? 

Semantics. Do you really want to go there? Fact is, many Russians believe Ukraine doesn’t have the right to exist, and even that all Ukrainians should be killed. Call it what you will, but if Russia were in charge there now (which would have been perfectly okay with you, judging by your posts), Ukrainians would be hunted down, put in concentration camps, or worse. 

[jvs]

So sad to see that a topic that was going well is turning into yet

another Trump versus Biden,mine is bigger then yours and i am smarter then you topic.

I am out.

[candide]

22 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Do you mean like we did when China invaded Tibet? 

Ah, no oil there. 

 

What Russia have done is less serious than what Bush and Blair did in Iraq. 

Nobody's currently approving what the U.S. did. Actually, the same European countries which were against the Irak war, are also against the invasion of Ukraine (ex. France).

Anyway, others' sins are no excuse for committing a crime.

[heybruce]

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

And your goalposts are as shifty as ever.

 

This started with your idea that Biden united NATO, then that he warned everybody, finally finishing with a testament to the Economist. Your "weeks before" invasion were mostly about 1-2 - not much of a warning - and by which time any intelligence Biden had would have been shared with NATO and probably leaked out to Ukraine as well. Zelensky would have had more inside track info than anyone and must have known enough to prepare for the worst as best he could, whatever he said. Most of us were hoping that this would not happen as was he, I'm sure. 

My goalposts are shifting?  I gave credible sources showing that up until two weeks and less before the invasion Zelensky and western leaders were skeptical about Biden's insistence that Russia was planning to invade.  However the Russian build-up and warnings were sufficient to cause Ukraine to take some precautions which succeeded in thwarting the initial shock tactics Russia tried to use.  I could have given sources showing the warnings started months in advance, but that would not have changed the truth of my statement:  Biden warned Ukraine and the world of Russia's plans to invade.

 

What was particularly brilliant was Biden's use of carefully selected declassified information.  Briefings to small numbers of people behind closed doors don't get the world's attention, international news releases do.  These warnings and press releases also made the US's commitment to support Ukraine and oppose Russia clear to the world, which made it easier for other western countries to do the same.

 

Clearly you don't want to give Biden the credit he is due for preparing Ukraine and the world for Russia's empire building war.  However the sourced facts speak for themselves.  Why don't you try finding a few that support your contention that Biden's warnings were unnecessary and the invasion everyone was in denial about was actually anticipated by everyone.

Edited February 24, 2023 by heybruce

[heybruce]

41 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Aren't the all the same ethnicity? 

So what?  Does that make Putin's empire building war of conquest acceptable?

 

Ukraine is a distinct nation with internationally recognized borders and its own language, culture and history.  Ukraine doesn't want to be under Russia's thumb and shouldn't be forced to be there.

[placeholder]

53 minutes ago, stevenl said:

Thanks, that's a much more balanced view than you postulated earlier.

His way of wriggling off that petard.

[Neeranam]

58 minutes ago, rudi49jr said:

Semantics. Do you really want to go there? Fact is, many Russians believe Ukraine doesn’t have the right to exist, and even that all Ukrainians should be killed. Call it what you will, but if Russia were in charge there now (which would have been perfectly okay with you, judging by your posts), Ukrainians would be hunted down, put in concentration camps, or worse. 

I doubt it, who told you that? Why would Russians want Ukrainians killed? I work with Russians and Ukrainians and in the last year, they have been very nice to each other, blaming just the Russian leader. 

 

[Neeranam]

I understand why some neighbouring countries are helping Ukraine but why is the USA involved?