Building a house without the Thai style concrete frame

[cliveuk]

I am planning to build a small house with either a single skin or cavity wall using the white insulating blocks. I have two problems, I can't find anywhere that sells bigger than the 75mm thick blocks say 100mm for a single skin. And for a cavity wall the white and grey blocks don't align so using cavity ties will be really difficult. I am in Nongki between Korat and Burriram. Any thoughts or comments will be appreciated.

[Halfaboy]

Have  a look at Ruangsaithai near Buriram. They are having a very extensive stock of all sorts of building materials. Staff can speak Thai, German, Spanish etc.

Worth having a look. 

[sometimewoodworker]

1 hour ago, cliveuk said:

 

I am planning to build a small house with either a single skin or cavity wall using the white insulating blocks. I have two problems, I can't find anywhere that sells bigger than the 75mm thick blocks say 100mm for a single skin. And for a cavity wall the white and grey blocks don't align so using cavity ties will be really difficult. I am in Nongki between Korat and Burriram. Any thoughts or comments will be appreciated.

 

Load bearing walls in AAC blocks start at 200mm they are neither inexpensive nor easily available, along with the fact that you will find extreme difficulty in finding builders who will work with them. There is no significant benefit to not using the standard 75mm blocks as a cavity wall with the standard post and beam house structure. The posts and beams disappear once the house is rendered. Cavity ties are not really needed with AAC blocks due to the “glue” being extremely thin at 3mm so the walls stay plumb, unless you have total incompetent builders

[MrJ2U]

1 minute ago, sometimewoodworker said:

you will find extreme difficulty in finding builders who will work with them.

And the ones that will  have no experience and probably botch the job.

 

Good luck,  especially if you're in Issan. 

 

 

[cliveuk]

4 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

Load bearing walls in AAC blocks start at 200mm they are neither inexpensive nor easily available, along with the fact that you will find extreme difficulty in finding builders who will work with them. There is no significant benefit to not using the standard 75mm blocks as a cavity wall with the standard post and beam house structure. The posts and beams disappear once the house is rendered. Cavity ties are not really needed with AAC blocks due to the “glue” being extremely thin at 3mm so the walls stay plumb, unless you have total incompetent builders

Thanks for your reply. I have someone lined up to do the work who I can trust 100 percent if you get my drift! In the UK such blocks are used as load bearing no problem and in any case it will only be single story. Again in the UK no special glue is used just ordinary mortor. The cavity ties are to give the two walls extra strength when connected together. My dilemma is the thin blocks seem just a bit too thin for a single skin and my builder doesn't want to use the concrete frame!

[cliveuk]

5 hours ago, Halfaboy said:

Have  a look at Ruangsaithai near Buriram. They are having a very extensive stock of all sorts of building materials. Staff can speak Thai, German, Spanish etc.

Worth having a look. 

Thanks I will check them out.

[sandyf]

54 minutes ago, cliveuk said:

Thanks for your reply. I have someone lined up to do the work who I can trust 100 percent if you get my drift! In the UK such blocks are used as load bearing no problem and in any case it will only be single story. Again in the UK no special glue is used just ordinary mortor. The cavity ties are to give the two walls extra strength when connected together. My dilemma is the thin blocks seem just a bit too thin for a single skin and my builder doesn't want to use the concrete frame!

Your last comment puzzles me a bit, is your builder Thai?

I built my house with cavity wall about 12 years ago and where I live you have to have their version of planning permission and we wouldn't have got that without the concrete framework as the pillars have to sit on concrete pads to  prevent subsidence.

With normal Thai building you do not really need wall ties as the window frames and door frames bridge the cavity and hold the walls together.

My house is a 2 bed ensuite bungalow, about 100 sq mtrs. I sourced a fired brick for the external wall and used Q blocks internally. The pillars are incorporated into the external walls and internally the only evidence is in the corner of two rooms.

I would recommend the cavity wall construction, it certainly helps to keep the interior cooler during the hot weather. One thing to watch out for, during construction the labourers will see the cavity as a convenient rubbish bin.

Good luck

[sometimewoodworker]

1 hour ago, cliveuk said:

Thanks for your reply. I have someone lined up to do the work who I can trust 100 percent if you get my drift! In the UK such blocks are used as load bearing no problem and in any case it will only be single story. Again in the UK no special glue is used just ordinary mortor. The cavity ties are to give the two walls extra strength when connected together. My dilemma is the thin blocks seem just a bit too thin for a single skin and my builder doesn't want to use the concrete frame!

Since it is the specifications of the designers of the blocks that state that load bearing walls start with 200mm thick blocks,

that U.K. blocks are not the same as AAC blocks used in Thailand.

That the method for laying U.K. blocks is completely different from the makers recommended method here.

That the AAC mortar (otherwise known as glue) is not “standard” mortar.

you are making a significant error in thinking that U.K. practices are directly relevant to Thai AAC blocks

 

the above is from TravesPerkins U.K. website 

 

this is from SGC the Thai makers of Q-Con

 

 

 

[sometimewoodworker]

33 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Your last comment puzzles me a bit, is your builder Thai?

I built my house with cavity wall about 12 years ago and where I live you have to have their version of planning permission and we wouldn't have got that without the concrete framework as the pillars have to sit on concrete pads to  prevent subsidence.

With normal Thai building you do not really need wall ties as the window frames and door frames bridge the cavity and hold the walls together.

My house is a 2 bed ensuite bungalow, about 100 sq mtrs. I sourced a fired brick for the external wall and used Q blocks internally. The pillars are incorporated into the external walls and internally the only evidence is in the corner of two rooms.

I would recommend the cavity wall construction, it certainly helps to keep the interior cooler during the hot weather. One thing to watch out for, during construction the labourers will see the cavity as a convenient rubbish bin.

Good luck

 

 

 

Our build was similar to yours, though we used double AAC skins 

 

https://www.coolthaihouse.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4890&start=135

[SomchaiDIY]

1 hour ago, sandyf said:

Your last comment puzzles me a bit, is your builder Thai?

I built my house with cavity wall about 12 years ago and where I live you have to have their version of planning permission and we wouldn't have got that without the concrete framework as the pillars have to sit on concrete pads to  prevent subsidence.

With normal Thai building you do not really need wall ties as the window frames and door frames bridge the cavity and hold the walls together.

My house is a 2 bed ensuite bungalow, about 100 sq mtrs. I sourced a fired brick for the external wall and used Q blocks internally. The pillars are incorporated into the external walls and internally the only evidence is in the corner of two rooms.

I would recommend the cavity wall construction, it certainly helps to keep the interior cooler during the hot weather. One thing to watch out for, during construction the labourers will see the cavity as a convenient rubbish bin.

Good luck

This is nice work in your photo

Good to see new idea

 

German man near my home made all brick house like this without concrete column looks perfect after many years

 

I think the aac block has load number from maker the architect can use these numbers for loading calculation

 

Also I know one english man at siracha area with small factory and house made with 200mm block with column inside block holes

very strong system very easy build

 

The europe style brick works are amazing to watch very accurate and high standards

 

 

For those with interest here is thai boy learning english brick works

 

 

[Don Chance]

I would start with concrete pier foundation and a concrete subfloor. Then a steel frame construction. Cover with fiberglass or concrete panels and roof tiles.

You could then put foam sheets on the exterior or a plastic vapour barrier. Then siding.  Interior - leave a gap and then dry wall.

Not sure why you think you need thick insulation in Thailand. You want to have a vapour barrier around the exterior of the structure so humid air does not enter.  Assuming you will run the AC all the time. Insulation is not needed. But the ceiling should be vented.

Edited March 5, 2022 by Don Chance

[sometimewoodworker]

1 hour ago, Don Chance said:

Not sure why you think you need thick insulation in Thailand.

You must be living in a different Thailand to virtually everyone here. 

 

1 hour ago, Don Chance said:

Assuming you will run the AC all the time. Insulation is not needed.

Absolutely wrong. The more you run the AC the more useful insulation is unless you like paying the PEA/MEA loads of money.

Certainly if you live in a traditional Thai house that has no AC insulation is seldom of much use.

 

[KhaoYai]

Nothing wrong with building without a concrete frame but you will need to accommodate that when choosing the footings. In most areas of Thailand a traditional Western concrete trench footing will not work.

Edited March 5, 2022 by KhaoYai

[KhaoYai]

On 3/2/2022 at 8:24 AM, sandyf said:

The pillars are incorporated into the external walls and internally the only evidence is in the corner of two rooms.

Did you by any chance get a 'friend' to do that brickwork?  I've rarely seen bricks laid as well by Thai builders.

[Don Chance]

13 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

You must be living in a different Thailand to virtually everyone here. 

 

Absolutely wrong. The more you run the AC the more useful insulation is unless you like paying the PEA/MEA loads of money.

Certainly if you live in a traditional Thai house that has no AC insulation is seldom of much use.

 

Insulation keeps heat in or heat out. When you leave your house and turn off your AC in Thailand the heat and humidity will enter again.

Electricity is so cheap in Thailand there is no point in spending all the money on insulation with little return. Further your house needs to breath, in hot and humid Thailand. That is why you don't want it air tight structure.  When you turn off the AC for a long time there will be mold growing inside because of all the insulation preventing any airflow. You will need to run a dehumidifier or have good ventilation in the ceiling and roof. It is the same as having an ice box and leave the lid closed, it will grow mold very quickly.

In a north climate the heating system is drying out the inner structure all the time so there is not a problem with mold and the summer months are short.

The reason we insulate in the north is because heating costs are very expensive or you have to chop a lot of wood.

In north of Thailand it is not even very hot. So you don't even need AC. just fans and maybe a high ceiling would help keep it cool. So no insulation or VB is recommended at all.

Edited March 6, 2022 by Don Chance

[sandyf]

18 hours ago, KhaoYai said:

Did you by any chance get a 'friend' to do that brickwork?  I've rarely seen bricks laid as well by Thai builders.

No, the "Builder" was a Thai but the brickwork was done by the workers who I think were Burmese. They did an excellent job, the original brick sample I obtained from the factory was very much like a house brick but when the builder came to buy them they were out of stock. The nearest similar size they had available had a couple of holes passing through it, rather than hold up the job for a few weeks I agreed thinking they could fill the open holes at the corners. I was quite surprised when they mitred every corner brick, and there was a lot of them, there are 3 pillars on the verandah that are bricked over. 

The pillars were 200mm sq and where the bricks went over the pillars they shaped the bricks to give a 1" cover, walls ended up being 225mm thick.

Whole job was 900K, but no kitchen, just a bare room and I built that myself.

[sometimewoodworker]

8 hours ago, Don Chance said:

Insulation keeps heat in or heat out.

Congratulations, you have scored 1 point

8 hours ago, Don Chance said:

When you leave your house and turn off your AC in Thailand the heat and humidity will enter again.

Sadly a partial fail so -½ a point, if I stay out for a very long time (days) then the temperature will get closer to the outside, however the humidity takes much longer than that, probably 5 to 10 times longer.

 

8 hours ago, Don Chance said:

Electricity is so cheap in Thailand there is no point in spending all the money on insulation with little return.

That very much depends on the insulation you chose, for glass fibre it is not true (-1 point). Also many people will strongly disagree with your “electricity is cheap” statement(-1 point). The ROI for most insulation is in single year digits. (-1 point)

 

9 hours ago, Don Chance said:

When you turn off the AC for a long time there will be mold growing inside because of all the insulation preventing any airflow. You will need to run a dehumidifier or have good ventilation in the ceiling and roof. It is the same as having an ice box and leave the lid closed, it will grow mold very quickly.

Again you are using an orifice for communication that is designed for wast management.

 

You heed to have particular situations that are not common for your statement to be true, for example months of absence.

9 hours ago, Don Chance said:

The reason we insulate in the north is because heating costs are very expensive

But you have just claimed that electricity is so cheap, you can’t have it both ways. (-1 point)

 

9 hours ago, Don Chance said:

or you have to chop a lot of wood.

Burning wood, or any fuel produces lots of water so exacerbates your mould problem.

 

grand total for truth and accuracy  (-3.5 points)

[MrJ2U]

I personally want to use steel in my next build. 

 

All the concrete makes for a hot house I find.   

[Yellowtail]

On 3/6/2022 at 8:08 PM, MrJ2U said:

I personally want to use steel in my next build. 

 

All the concrete makes for a hot house I find.   

It's not the concrete doing that, it's the Sun...

[KhunLA]

If the house is built properly, good materials, and exterior walls SHADED by the roof, you'll be quite comfy, even on the hottest days.  ACs will run efficiently, keeping the overpriced electric here to a minimal monthly expense.

 

Educated, experienced Thais build houses the way they do, because it works, practical, and inexpensive.

 

Use insulated block, if house rectangular, built E to W lengthwise, have roof overhang, as much as possible, no windows, or as few as possible on S side.   Shade your exterior walls, quite easy with carport on one side, patio on the other.

 

Use insulated rolled steel roof, as all around better than anything else.  Use ceiling insulation -37/38, and when you enter the house it will feel like you are entering a house with AC already on, during those hot days.  When brutually hot & humid out, use your dehumidifier mode when not in the house.  Makes a world of difference.

 

On my 3rd build now, and made all the mistakes on the 1st build, corrected with roof extensions & insulation, along with add on rooms with double block walls, as insulated block wasn't available, or widely known.  2nd build done right from the get go.

 

Remember earth's axis, and decide what season better for shading.  2nd house had mostly all glass front.  Cool season sun came in, which was fine, hot season house mostly shaded.  Really didn't matter, as ACs ran almost 24/7, when needed, and house stayed cool.  Sun exposure through tinted windows (90+ protection from heat & UV) was only at sunrise anyway, and a couple hours at that.  Hardly noticed temp wise, but blinding if not awake yet ????

 

Here's snapshot of 2nd house, rectantangle, shaded concrete roof, patios on E & W side, with carport on W side.  Glass wall facing N, w/shaded pool, that actually got too chilly to use early on, since shaded so well.  Back / S wall had storage area, completely shading that wall.

 

Block the sun, and insulate, and you'll save money every month on electric / AC use.

 

Don't do the silly 'clear the lot' as many do & build.  Plot your house out, as we had plenty of natural shading also, especially SW corner.

 

 

 

Edited March 8, 2022 by KhunLA

[Encid]

On 3/2/2022 at 8:29 AM, cliveuk said:

I am planning to build a small house with either a single skin or cavity wall using the white insulating blocks.

I have attached a copy of the latest version of the Q-CON handbook for your reference. There is a Thai language version available as well from Q-CON as well as many training videos in both Thai and English language.

In there is everything you need to know about AAC wall construction using this product.

 

Q-CON_handbook_eng.pdf

[sandyf]

On 3/6/2022 at 8:08 PM, MrJ2U said:

I personally want to use steel in my next build. 

 

All the concrete makes for a hot house I find.   

I think you will find that the thermal conductivity of steel is a lot higher than concrete.

You should try living in a container to test your theory.

[MrJ2U]

22 minutes ago, sandyf said:

I think you will find that the thermal conductivity of steel is a lot higher than concrete.

You should try living in a container to test your theory.

Your right.

 

After more thought you can disregard my steel house theory.

 

I like a steel frame though so not any posts in the middle of the house.  Probably stronger also.

 

 

[Don Chance]

On 3/6/2022 at 7:44 PM, sometimewoodworker said:

 

Burning wood, or any fuel produces lots of water so exacerbates your mould problem.

 

 

You obviously have no clue about housing or building to make such a statement.

 

"Wood stoves, like all other forms of heat, can seriously dry out the air in your house. While oil and gas heat both remove air from the house, woodstoves have a reputation for causing dryness in old houses in particular." link

 

To sum up. There is no need to insulate your house in Thailand or any tropical location. It is likely to cause more problems than saving a few baht on electricity from AC.

[Yellowtail]

This should be amusing...

[sometimewoodworker]

9 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

This should be amusing...

Shouldn’t it just ???? 

[sandyf]

14 hours ago, MrJ2U said:

Your right.

 

After more thought you can disregard my steel house theory.

 

I like a steel frame though so not any posts in the middle of the house.  Probably stronger also.

No posts in the middle of my house, main room is 5m x 7m.

The only evidence of posts is in one corner of one bedroom.

[sometimewoodworker]

10 hours ago, Don Chance said:

You obviously have no clue about housing or building to make such a statement.

 

"Wood stoves, like all other forms of heat, can seriously dry out the air in your house. While oil and gas heat both remove air from the house, woodstoves have a reputation for causing dryness in old houses in particular." link

 

To sum up. There is no need to insulate your house in Thailand or any tropical location. It is likely to cause more problems than saving a few baht on electricity from AC.

Quote

When wood is burned, the combustion reaction produces heat and emissions in the form of water, organic vapors, gases, and particulates. The emissions of most concern are carbon monoxide (CO), carbon dioxide (CO2), sulfur oxides (SOx), and nitrogen oxides (NOx). Other regulated elements and compounds, such as mercury and hydrochloric acid are measurable in the emissions but at levels much below accepted maximums. 

 

Burning wood produces water

 

you really should understand basic science. 

 

All heat increases the capability of air to hold moisture, air is not dried out by heating, the moisture is still present. The RH is reduced and the transfer of water into the air is enabled as the temperature rises

 

all forms of burning produces water, poorly designed stoves use combustion air from inside the house, well designed, and installed, ones bring in combustion air from outside and exhaust it outside.

 

design your burning badly and you will have saturated or high humidity air that as soon as the temperature drops will be producing dew on cooler surfaces, so providing a nice damp substrate for  moulds and fungi 

 

 

of course you can purchase a high quality, high tech wood burning stove that brings in combustion air and exhausts combustion products outside the house, since it will have to be imported it’s go to cost a lot, likely over 100,000 Baht as they aren’t cheap or common here, you will then have to find competent installers and have a house that it can be used in. ROI on something like that is ridiculously long so it’s a fashion choice not an economic one.

 

insulation in walls, windows, doors and ceilings in houses designed for air conditioning provide both temperature maintenance and reduction of noise. 
 

you can stay in your badly advised house running your AC burning vast amounts of electricity that you claim is so cheap (I don’t know anyone whose opinion is the same on that) producing a noisy house, leaking cooled air out and getting humid air in. and during the cold season not using electricity to heat your house because magically electricity has become expensive so you burn wood either in a high tech vastly expensive stove or it is pumping water into your house that due to the poor design leaks combustion products along with your heated air outside.
 

While those who like quiet have our well insulated quiet houses with the low power and quiet ACs purring along and in the few days of cool temperatures they are heat pumps so reverse the heat transfer.

 

 

To sum up. Your arguments are contradictory show a lack of scientific understanding and wrong

 

 

 

[sandyf]

10 hours ago, Don Chance said:

To sum up. There is no need to insulate your house in Thailand or any tropical location.

I would disagree with that.

I have cavity wall construction which gives the walls quite effective insulation. During the hot season we run the AC in the bedroom overnight and during the day the floor and internal walls act like a storage heater in reverse and keep the internal temperature well below the external ambient until the following evening.

The need for insulation is dependent on how comfortable you are with the local ambient.

[Yellowtail]

Any new build I undertook today I would double-roof using solar panels to shade the main roof.

 

Whether posts are required in the middle of a room has much more to do with the rafters than it does with the posts/columns.