Thailand does the math: Two are dying per hour on the Thai roads

[Robin]

This topic is brought up regularly and always the same response.

Self Righteous Farang or Bangkok Post moan about "Driving standards"  Farangs tell thaialnd what to do.

Face the fact that nobody who matters in Thailand cares one iota about accident stats. or death rates, so nothing will ever be done. (Except pointless nonsense like a helmet "Crackdown")

If you live in Thailand you have to accept the high accident rate and the quality of local drivers.

It might be Darwin's law, killing off the most incompetent,  but there is a inexhaustible supply of new drivers to replace the casualties.

[Bangkok Barry]

If there is even one family in Thailand which does not have a member who has been killed, seriously injured or been involved in an accident due to utter stupidity then I would be amazed. In my own family here, one was killed, one on a motorcycle was hit from behind while waiting to turn right, requiring metal plates in his leg, one ended upside down in a ditch while a passenger in a pickup, another killed a woman who looked only one way when pulling out of a side turning to cross the main road. It has nothing at all to do, Thunglom, with racism, it has everything to do with the four points I made in a post above.

[Nkpjed]

9 hours ago, webfact said:

It was observed in the report that encouraging Thais to wear face masks has been easy - getting them to wear helmets is quite another matter. 

Getting them to wear helmets is also easy, but requires law enforcement to do their job, and therein lies the problem.

[Thunglom]

25 minutes ago, Will B Good said:

I can see where you are coming from and can understand wanting be defensive......but Thais and driving are just beyond the pale.........it is criminal what happens here, day in day out on the roads.....

Sorry but I have experience of driving all over the world and extensively in Thailand - more than most Thai people and I don't find the driving to be particularly bad - I believe the bad driving is a result of the government not introducing a proper road safety system for twenty yeas whilst having the 10th biggest motor industry in the world.

what people don't understand is that ALL countries have about the same number of bad drivers but their road systems and environment PREVENTS idiots form being idiots.the side-effect of this is that people who come from "safer" countries mistakenly think that they ae good drivers when the reality is that they have been cosseted by their system back home and are unable to adapt to or make sense of driving over here.

What we are dealing with is perception over reality.

 

Most foreign drivers know nothing about Road Safey - they think because they have operated motor vehicles for several years they are some kind of "expert' which they are not - and if you read most of the posts on this thread you will seethe hardly anyone has taken time to consider firstly what road safety is and secondly that they are actually part of the equation.

In reality did you know that Thailand has the same number of collisions as the UK? - so if the is the case, how come so many more die here and how come expats think they see more accidents? In fact it is the "md" drivers that chase te most accidents, it is the smug, confident ones that succumb to human error that are the problem for 93% of all crashes. the ones who look down to tune the radio, light a cigarette - think it's OK just to check te phone, don't look at the road surface etc etc.

 

 

[Thunglom]

40 minutes ago, ChaiyaTH said:

Foreign drivers are some of the worst? What a nonsense claim, they in fact understand the roads and logic hence they usually tend to drive faster and get around the clogged areas. I do am aware many Thais sometimes get scared by foreign drivers as they react faster and Thais expect them to stay within the danger zone.

 

Aside of drunk drivers I think it is mainly people driving slow and taking over illegally causing problems, even the people doing that get away safe most times. This is also the main issue for many of the smaller traffic jams.

 

A foreign driver is taught to think ahead and make decisions upfront, Thais often did not even decide or know to go straight, turn left or right, once already on the intersection.

 

I personally take my chances driving faster, and get around those clogged areas, to have the road for myself and drive with a chill.

there is nothing to support your pet of view.

"they in fact understand the roads and logic" - this is so wrong it's risible foreign drivers don't have a clue how to drive in Thailand they expect people to drive like they do at home - 

Edited March 26, 2022 by Thunglom

[Andre0720]

Logically, let's look at it logically.

People die on the roads, many people.

The original cause, police inactivity.

Then who should be blamed for the deaths.

The people who take advantage of the inactivity, or those who create the inactivity.

Quite clear to me....

[MrJ2U]

High death rate is mostly because most people drive motorcycles.

 

Cars are to expensive for the average Thai.

 

Another reason Thais are lousy drivers.

[TropicalGuy]

19 minutes ago, Bangkok Barry said:

If there is even one family in Thailand which does not have a member who has been killed, seriously injured or been involved in an accident due to utter stupidity then I would be amazed. In my own family here, one was killed, one on a motorcycle was hit from behind while waiting to turn right, requiring metal plates in his leg, one ended upside down in a ditch while a passenger in a pickup, another killed a woman who looked only one way when pulling out of a side turning to cross the main road. It has nothing at all to do, Thunglom, with racism, it has everything to do with the four points I made in a post above.

I’m a UK IAM Advanced Car Driver and never heard of his Safe System or 5Es ……..which is perhaps a novice derivative of the UK Driving System which not only does not work here, it would get you killed…. simply because no one else following it….or expecting it.

To survive, Driving here must be viewed as Single Combat …. it’s you against everyone else. Defensive Driving Only with No Rules. Protect Yourself at All Times. Always Assume The Worst. Maximum Distance Always from Others.

[Wagga]

5 hours ago, TheScience said:

I'm almost smacked 2-3 times a week on the footpath.

Kinky   ????

[TropicalGuy]

5 minutes ago, MrJ2U said:

High death rate is mostly because most people drive motorcycles.

 

Cars are to expensive for the average Thai.

 

Another reason Thais are lousy drivers.

Finally someone else gets it. 95% Untrained Young Adult Thais forced onto m/bikes, due to ridiculous greedy taxes / high prices making even very old cars unaffordable,  then swiftly into coffins……..

 

Driving just as mad or worse in Muslim countries for example BUT nobody needs to ride m/bikes so Road deaths way lower.made worse here by kids as young as 10-12 given m/ bikes by parents not wanting to cart them around any more ….

[MrJ2U]

Just now, TropicalGuy said:

Finally someone else gets it. 95% Untrained Young Adult Thais forced onto m/bikes, due to ridiculous greedy taxes / high prices making even very old cars unaffordable,  then swiftly into coffins……..

 

Driving just as mad or worse in Muslim countries for example BUT nobody needs to ride m/bikes so Road deaths way lower.made worse here by kids as young as 10-12 given m/ bikes by parents not wanting to cart them around any more ….

Exactly.

 

It's much easier to survive an accident in a car than an exposed motorcycle. 

 

Even if one is even wearing the usual 300 baht plast helmet.

 

It's not unusual for many motorcycles to have broken tail lights or no lights at all.  A disaster waiting to happen.

[Jimjim1]

6 hours ago, cardinalblue said:

Thailand is a very easy place to live....The culture is very type B personality,,,,No pressure to excel or dot your eyes or  cross your Tees...It's a loosey goosey one where perfection is not demanded

 

Enter driving a motor vehicle where precision is demanded, systems are followed, gov maintain proper road infrastructure, people are well trained, and drivers are held accountable for their actions..

 

Road safety demands all of the above to minimize accidents and make it enjoyable to drive as one can anticipate others behaviors...none of this exists in Thailand and stats reflect that 

You are quit correct but when one considers that the Thais have come up from a population who’s main mode of transport was a buffalo and cart and or a motorbike, then suddenly a car capable of more than 120 MPH and no training of how to properly drive it or any road common sense when they do, one must expect carnage on the roads.

 

If ever evidence was required regarding the absolute lack of connection between the left side and the right side of the Thai brain one only has to correlate the death rate and reasons why it happens.

 

Any fool can do 120MPH but can they stop when things start to go wrong, methinks not

 

We all know the police and government are useless but how can one blame them when they behave in exactly the same way because they know no better.

 

These clowns have destroyed tourism using the weak excuse that they are saving a few thousand lives from the rigours of Covid whilst standing four square on the genocidal death rate cause by a complete lack of education and common sense.

 

[OILMAN13]

I’ll venture to guess more people die on the roads here than die of COVID. Kind of pathetic considering what COVID has done to the Thai economy. 

[fusion58]

6 hours ago, billd766 said:

Just in case you missed the text of the thread, it was this.

 

Thailand does the math: Two are dying per hour on the Thai roads

 

Please explain what you mean about the USA in a thread about Thailand?

Also, citations are needed for his suggestion that 20K died on the roads in the U.S. during the same six month period.

[OILMAN13]

16 minutes ago, OILMAN13 said:

I’ll venture to guess more people die on the roads here than die of COVID. Kind of pathetic considering what COVID has done to the Thai economy. 

NHTSA projects that an estimated 31,720people died in motor vehicle traffic crashes from January through September 2021, an increase of approximately 12% from the 28,325 fatalities projected for the first nine months of 2020.Feb 1, 2022

https://www.nhtsa.gov › press-releases

Traffic Fatalities Rise in First Nine Months of 2021 | NHTSA

[TropicalGuy]

1 hour ago, Thunglom said:

You realise you are using an oxymoronic example?

 

Where is the “ contradiction” ? 

[Kalasin Jo]

6 hours ago, khunpa said:

Common sense” would mean no need for lucky amulets and car-blessings.

Especially this. In my Thai family they really believe in a monk blessing the car and scrawling some suitablewords behind and above the driver's drop down visor will work and save you. Doesn't seem to apply when it comes to motorcycles though. No helmets, ever.

[mancub]

3 hours ago, Thunglom said:

That is precisely the ewrongway to look - you obviously don't understand cognitive bias or dissonance

And you (obviously)  can ignore reality, yet you can't ignore the consequences of ignoring reality.

[cncltd1973]

Once again, forum members care more than the gov't does!

[Thunglom]

1 hour ago, TropicalGuy said:

I’m a UK IAM Advanced Car Driver and never heard of his Safe System or 5Es

Apparently then you know about as much about Road safety as tea leaf understands about the East India company.

[TropicalGuy]

46 minutes ago, Jimjim1 said:

You are quit correct but when one considers that the Thais have come up from a population who’s main mode of transport was a buffalo and cart and or a motorbike, then suddenly a car capable of more than 120 MPH and no training of how to properly drive it or any road common sense when they do, one must expect carnage on the roads.

 

If ever evidence was required regarding the absolute lack of connection between the left side and the right side of the Thai brain one only has to correlate the death rate and reasons why it happens.

 

Any fool can do 120MPH but can they stop when things start to go wrong, methinks not

 

We all know the police and government are useless but how can one blame them when they behave in exactly the same way because they know no better.

 

These clowns have destroyed tourism using the weak excuse that they are saving a few thousand lives from the rigours of Covid whilst standing four square on the genocidal death rate cause by a complete lack of education and common sense.

 

Culture always trumps Reason in backward countries. Will never change here. Culture hereUtterly Incompatible with Road Safety. 
 

Now they ARE capable of it. In Flying  & Medicine for example they DO comply with western standards. But that’s the top 1%, with Driving applicable to 100%.

 

But now this unreason culture phenomenon is coming back to “ advanced” Western countries with Woke Cancel Culture sanctioning biological males competing in physical Sports with real women. 

[TropicalGuy]

6 minutes ago, Thunglom said:

Apparently then you know about as much about Road safety as tea leaf understands about the East India company.

I understand I am a qualified Advanced Driver to UK / Western Standard and have survived 45 years International driving in the worst driving countries like Thailand, Egypt, Saudi Arabia.

[Thunglom]

22 minutes ago, TropicalGuy said:

I understand I am a qualified Advanced Driver to UK / Western Standard and have survived 45 years International driving in the worst driving countries like Thailand, Egypt, Saudi Arabia.

fallacious appeal to authority - I note you have broadened you range of countries and have looked up oxymoron on google.

you've already admitted you know nothing about the Safe System which is the international standard for road safety. you have made the elementary mistake of confusing messenger with message.

Edited March 26, 2022 by Thunglom

[Thunglom]

The official figures, reported by Nation Thailand, released Jan 2022 by the Department of Disaster Prevention and Mitigation says there were 2,707 road traffic accidents reported between December 29 and January 4 , with 2,672 people injured and 333 killed. = average of 387 per day

 

UK has some of the safest roads in the world, with only a handful of countries ranked above Britain in terms of road user safety? And yet despite this, accidents are still incredibly common, with 122,635 recorded in 2018 – that’s around 336 a day.

 

So why is the death rate so different?

 

[Thunglom]

False perceptions....

Politician’s syllogism: - All cats have four legs. My dog has four legs. Therefore, my dog is a cat.

 

False perceptions

 

When it comes to road safety – “seeing is believing” is most definitely NOT the case…..

 

The 2 main enemies of clear thinking on road safety are confirmation bias and cognitive dissonance…… It is important to overcome them….

 

confirmation bias (“confirmation bias,” the tendency people have to embrace information that supports their beliefs and reject information that contradicts them). E.G – if you decide that drivers of pickup trucks are very rude, very time you see one doing a manoeuvre you don’t approve of you say “look, see what I mean” – but subconsciously you ignore the other vehicles and drivers.

 

cognitive dissonance (Sometimes learning new information can lead to feelings of cognitive dissonance. For example, if you engage in a behaviour that you later learn is harmful, it can lead to feelings of discomfort. People sometimes deal with this either by finding ways to justify their behaviours or findings ways to discredit or ignore new information.)  E.g. -  when you find out that statistically your belief about Fortuner drivers isn’t true - you ignore the evidence because it conflicts with your long-term unfounded belief…. and continue to pick out Fortuners as culprits. A common symptom of cognitive dissonance is asking for citations (sealioning) rather than accepting the point or finding a proper reasoned argument against it.

 

Overcoming these prejudices helps to get a realistic appreciation of the reality of the situation in Thailand and then to assess one’s personal driving skills. 

 

A key to understanding road safety, can be to drop the concept of “bad drivers” altogether and consider it in terms of human error within a Road Safety environment; a holistic approach to Thailand’s road environment … and then consider how YOU fit into this either as a road user or even just a bystander. It can require a bit of soul-searching but in the end might make Thai roads safer for yourself and others.

 

Perceptions in Thailand seem very skewed as is reflected in government policies and most comments you see in the media – whether the main news or social.

 

Most of the advice you see on driving in Thailand seems to be based purely on the “blame game” aimed at “other” (Thai) drivers and nape-of-the-neck dictums from politicians trying to look as if they are doing something or trying to score brownie-points with the public.

 

This has long been a discredited view in road safety science.

 

Presumptions and prejudices: -  Comments on road safety in Thailand are mostly just derogatory. Rather than any critical thinking or research, people simply use either anecdotal evidence or personal observation – false (or politician’s) syllogisms[1] that don’t make for a well thought out, sound argument. 

 

Most of this advice I’d suggest is ill considered and at times downright wrong. Add to this a lack of driving experience by those handing out advice or any real knowledge of the factors contributing to road safety in Thailand (or anywhere else in the world for that matter) and the result is not so much opinions as assumptions and wildly inaccurate assertions. Just because someone can operate a car, doesn’t make them an “expert” on road safety.

      

Many in discussions ignore the issues of road safety and focus on what they see as “bad driving”, and then conclude that driving in Thailand is that it is a prohibitively perilous thing to do and that it is largely down to Thai people being useless drivers.  In fact, Thais have grown up in the Thai driving environment and are much more accustomed to it than most foreigners. They have the skills for survival. It is often foreigners who fail to adapt to a new driving environment and try to stick to the old rules and conventions that dominated in their old home country…. they do so at their peril. Driving by the rules – your rules – is just not the right way to drive in Thailand. They are trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

 

In fact, statistically speaking driving in a 4 wheeled private vehicle is a lot safer than people would have you believe. In reality, the road death rate for these in Thailand is just about the same as the USA.

 

Most of the opinions that appear on chat web sites etc., are by people who issue a series of tirades and vitriol against Thai drivers. Virtually every opinion is thoroughly negative. 

Many posters also suggest that because the roads are too dangerous to consider driving oneself, a driver or public transport was preferable. This is of course highly illogical as they have already accused Thai drivers of being the “worst in the world” so why would they let one drive them? On one hand they admit they aren’t competent enough to drive on Thai roads and then say all Thai drivers are dangerous and no good at driving???

 

What is more important is how competent a driver YOU are and how good is your ability to understand, acclimatise and adapt to the driving environment in Thailand. My experience is that many foreigners, even those who have lived in the country for a long time fail to grasp these concepts.

 

 “Thai roads are dangerous and all Thai drivers are reckless morons”. – so are you!

 

Just take a moment to consider how people who say things like this see themselves and other road users. They have pre-set ideas about how others should or do drive and when they see a mistake of any kind it just serves to confirm this, but they are oblivious to any evidence to the contrary – this is a combination of confirmation bias and cognitive dissonance combined with a Dunning Kruger[2] effect appreciation of their own driving skills.

 

How people form their opinions on driving can often be quite tenuous. Yet they then talk as if they are authorities on the subject without any logic, reason or evidence. – Why is this? –  when it comes to some subjects, people quite unreasonably judge themselves to be “experts” – 

 

Healthcare, Teaching and education and Road safety seem to be prime examples – 

·      Because they went into hospital, they consider themselves to be an expert on whatever illness they had

·      because they went to school, they are “experts” on education

·      because they can drive a car, they are “experts” on road safety

And everyone seems to think they are superb drivers and better than all those other road users to boot.

 

Expert - a word used by people to attack the messenger rather than the message. People without any argument seem to believe that they can discredit anyone who says something they don’t agree with  or didn’t know, by suggesting they aren’t an “expert” – whatever that may be.

 

People accept archaic ideas on road safety without question but things have moved on and this is reflected in the dramatic drop in traffic injury figures of countries that have adopted the “new” thinking. The problem is that if someone is told something they haven’t thought about before and it is backed it up with logic and reason, cognitive dissonance kicks in and they ignore even the most powerful evidence.

 

In Thailand, the default position for foreigners is to turn on the vitriol when talking about their fellow road users... they automatically exclude themselves from the equation and whilst implying that their driving skills are far superior to those of any Thai people.

 

It also seems that many foreigners who don’t even drive themselves like to get in on the act and get just as vociferous. However, it does underline that road safety isn’t just about driving, it’s about ROAD USERS -and that includes everyone on or near the road, pedestrians, stall holders, elephants, gammons etc etc…….

 

On the whole though, if we were to believe everything the non-Thais posting on chat forums said, we wold have to conclude that almost everyone is better than the average driver! Which is mathematically impossible...

 

Detailed descriptions of how “bad” other motorists driving is are seldom helpful. Without analysis, all they do is reinforce those people’s prejudices about driving in Thailand - i.e. blaming people or even the entire nation, rather than considering the underlying causes. There is also the temptation to attempt simplify matters by looking for one single solution for the whole problem; a sort of road safety panacea.

 

A few common truths about how motorists see themselves versus other road users

 

“Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?” - George Carlin

 

“The one thing that unites all human beings, regardless of age, gender, religion, economic status, or ethnic background, is that, deep down inside, we all believe that we are above-average drivers.” – Dave Barry

 

“The survey by Michelin North America found that the majority of Americans don’t trust other drivers and say they witness unsafe driving behavior regularly. At the same time, an overwhelming majority - 81 percent - remain supremely confident in their own abilities behind the wheel.” [3]

 

These were some observations resulting from research done by the Centre for Transport and Society - UK....

 

The public know that driver behaviour is a major contributory factor in the vast majority of road accidents... (Cauzard, 2003) - 

But there is a consistent view that OTHERS drive in a riskier manner than individuals themselves do  - (King and Parker, 2008)

It’s not just driving – older children and adolescents think they have good attitude and skills towards road safety but believe that others especially those in their peer group do not - (Tolmie. 2006).

 

Individuals do not believe they are dangerous on the roads but at the same time fervently believe others are.

• I am not likely to be responsible for an accident; others are likely to be responsible. Therefore, little I can do.

• Hence, less likely to need to “plan to avoid them”

• Campaigns aimed at dangerous driving are for “other” drivers not themselves. 

• Such campaigns re-emphasise this difference (2CV, 2008 and Flaming Research, 2008)

• The third-person effect (Davison, 1983). 

• High support for enforcement, engineering solutions and education 

• But not for themselves - for other people.

 

However, the reality can be a long way from these benighted perspectives.

 

 

 

---

[1]Politician’s syllogism: - All cats have four legs. My dog has four legs. Therefore, my dog is a cat.

 

[2] Dunning-Kruger effect,  .. a cognitive bias whereby people with limited knowledge or competence in a given intellectual or social domain greatly overestimate their own knowledge or competence in that domain relative to objective criteria or to the performance of their peers or of people in general.  - https://www.britannica.com/science/Dunning-Kruger-effect

 

[3] https://www.cnbc.com/2015/10/23/george-carlin-was-right-other-drivers-are-idiots-and-maniacs.html

[Will B Good]

2 hours ago, Thunglom said:

Sorry but I have experience of driving all over the world and extensively in Thailand - more than most Thai people and I don't find the driving to be particularly bad - I believe the bad driving is a result of the government not introducing a proper road safety system for twenty yeas whilst having the 10th biggest motor industry in the world.

what people don't understand is that ALL countries have about the same number of bad drivers but their road systems and environment PREVENTS idiots form being idiots.the side-effect of this is that people who come from "safer" countries mistakenly think that they ae good drivers when the reality is that they have been cosseted by their system back home and are unable to adapt to or make sense of driving over here.

What we are dealing with is perception over reality.

 

Most foreign drivers know nothing about Road Safey - they think because they have operated motor vehicles for several years they are some kind of "expert' which they are not - and if you read most of the posts on this thread you will seethe hardly anyone has taken time to consider firstly what road safety is and secondly that they are actually part of the equation.

In reality did you know that Thailand has the same number of collisions as the UK? - so if the is the case, how come so many more die here and how come expats think they see more accidents? In fact it is the "md" drivers that chase te most accidents, it is the smug, confident ones that succumb to human error that are the problem for 93% of all crashes. the ones who look down to tune the radio, light a cigarette - think it's OK just to check te phone, don't look at the road surface etc etc.

 

 

I drove for 30 years in the UK and EU averaging over 40,000 miles per year and I can honestly say the standard of driving there is far, far superior to anything I witness in Thailand.

 

Thai driving standards simply are atrocious.....end of

[Will B Good]

2 minutes ago, Thunglom said:

False perceptions....

Politician’s syllogism: - All cats have four legs. My dog has four legs. Therefore, my dog is a cat.

 

 

False perceptions

 

When it comes to road safety – “seeing is believing” is most definitely NOT the case…..

 

The 2 main enemies of clear thinking on road safety are confirmation bias and cognitive dissonance…… It is important to overcome them….

 

confirmation bias (“confirmation bias,” the tendency people have to embrace information that supports their beliefs and reject information that contradicts them). E.G – if you decide that drivers of pickup trucks are very rude, very time you see one doing a manoeuvre you don’t approve of you say “look, see what I mean” – but subconsciously you ignore the other vehicles and drivers.

 

cognitive dissonance (Sometimes learning new information can lead to feelings of cognitive dissonance. For example, if you engage in a behaviour that you later learn is harmful, it can lead to feelings of discomfort. People sometimes deal with this either by finding ways to justify their behaviours or findings ways to discredit or ignore new information.)  E.g. -  when you find out that statistically your belief about Fortuner drivers isn’t true - you ignore the evidence because it conflicts with your long-term unfounded belief…. and continue to pick out Fortuners as culprits. A common symptom of cognitive dissonance is asking for citations (sealioning) rather than accepting the point or finding a proper reasoned argument against it.

 

Overcoming these prejudices helps to get a realistic appreciation of the reality of the situation in Thailand and then to assess one’s personal driving skills. 

 

A key to understanding road safety, can be to drop the concept of “bad drivers” altogether and consider it in terms of human error within a Road Safety environment; a holistic approach to Thailand’s road environment … and then consider how YOU fit into this either as a road user or even just a bystander. It can require a bit of soul-searching but in the end might make Thai roads safer for yourself and others.

 

Perceptions in Thailand seem very skewed as is reflected in government policies and most comments you see in the media – whether the main news or social.

 

Most of the advice you see on driving in Thailand seems to be based purely on the “blame game” aimed at “other” (Thai) drivers and nape-of-the-neck dictums from politicians trying to look as if they are doing something or trying to score brownie-points with the public.

 

This has long been a discredited view in road safety science.

 

Presumptions and prejudices: -  Comments on road safety in Thailand are mostly just derogatory. Rather than any critical thinking or research, people simply use either anecdotal evidence or personal observation – false (or politician’s) syllogisms[1] that don’t make for a well thought out, sound argument. 

 

Most of this advice I’d suggest is ill considered and at times downright wrong. Add to this a lack of driving experience by those handing out advice or any real knowledge of the factors contributing to road safety in Thailand (or anywhere else in the world for that matter) and the result is not so much opinions as assumptions and wildly inaccurate assertions. Just because someone can operate a car, doesn’t make them an “expert” on road safety.

      

Many in discussions ignore the issues of road safety and focus on what they see as “bad driving”, and then conclude that driving in Thailand is that it is a prohibitively perilous thing to do and that it is largely down to Thai people being useless drivers.  In fact, Thais have grown up in the Thai driving environment and are much more accustomed to it than most foreigners. They have the skills for survival. It is often foreigners who fail to adapt to a new driving environment and try to stick to the old rules and conventions that dominated in their old home country…. they do so at their peril. Driving by the rules – your rules – is just not the right way to drive in Thailand. They are trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

 

In fact, statistically speaking driving in a 4 wheeled private vehicle is a lot safer than people would have you believe. In reality, the road death rate for these in Thailand is just about the same as the USA.

 

Most of the opinions that appear on chat web sites etc., are by people who issue a series of tirades and vitriol against Thai drivers. Virtually every opinion is thoroughly negative. 

Many posters also suggest that because the roads are too dangerous to consider driving oneself, a driver or public transport was preferable. This is of course highly illogical as they have already accused Thai drivers of being the “worst in the world” so why would they let one drive them? On one hand they admit they aren’t competent enough to drive on Thai roads and then say all Thai drivers are dangerous and no good at driving???

 

What is more important is how competent a driver YOU are and how good is your ability to understand, acclimatise and adapt to the driving environment in Thailand. My experience is that many foreigners, even those who have lived in the country for a long time fail to grasp these concepts.

 

 “Thai roads are dangerous and all Thai drivers are reckless morons”. – so are you!

 

Just take a moment to consider how people who say things like this see themselves and other road users. They have pre-set ideas about how others should or do drive and when they see a mistake of any kind it just serves to confirm this, but they are oblivious to any evidence to the contrary – this is a combination of confirmation bias and cognitive dissonance combined with a Dunning Kruger[2] effect appreciation of their own driving skills.

 

How people form their opinions on driving can often be quite tenuous. Yet they then talk as if they are authorities on the subject without any logic, reason or evidence. – Why is this? –  when it comes to some subjects, people quite unreasonably judge themselves to be “experts” – 

 

Healthcare, Teaching and education and Road safety seem to be prime examples – 

·      Because they went into hospital, they consider themselves to be an expert on whatever illness they had

·      because they went to school, they are “experts” on education

·      because they can drive a car, they are “experts” on road safety

And everyone seems to think they are superb drivers and better than all those other road users to boot.

 

Expert - a word used by people to attack the messenger rather than the message. People without any argument seem to believe that they can discredit anyone who says something they don’t agree with  or didn’t know, by suggesting they aren’t an “expert” – whatever that may be.

 

People accept archaic ideas on road safety without question but things have moved on and this is reflected in the dramatic drop in traffic injury figures of countries that have adopted the “new” thinking. The problem is that if someone is told something they haven’t thought about before and it is backed it up with logic and reason, cognitive dissonance kicks in and they ignore even the most powerful evidence.

 

In Thailand, the default position for foreigners is to turn on the vitriol when talking about their fellow road users... they automatically exclude themselves from the equation and whilst implying that their driving skills are far superior to those of any Thai people.

 

It also seems that many foreigners who don’t even drive themselves like to get in on the act and get just as vociferous. However, it does underline that road safety isn’t just about driving, it’s about ROAD USERS -and that includes everyone on or near the road, pedestrians, stall holders, elephants, gammons etc etc…….

 

On the whole though, if we were to believe everything the non-Thais posting on chat forums said, we wold have to conclude that almost everyone is better than the average driver! Which is mathematically impossible...

 

Detailed descriptions of how “bad” other motorists driving is are seldom helpful. Without analysis, all they do is reinforce those people’s prejudices about driving in Thailand - i.e. blaming people or even the entire nation, rather than considering the underlying causes. There is also the temptation to attempt simplify matters by looking for one single solution for the whole problem; a sort of road safety panacea.

 

A few common truths about how motorists see themselves versus other road users

 

“Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?” - George Carlin

 

“The one thing that unites all human beings, regardless of age, gender, religion, economic status, or ethnic background, is that, deep down inside, we all believe that we are above-average drivers.” – Dave Barry

 

“The survey by Michelin North America found that the majority of Americans don’t trust other drivers and say they witness unsafe driving behavior regularly. At the same time, an overwhelming majority - 81 percent - remain supremely confident in their own abilities behind the wheel.” [3]

 

These were some observations resulting from research done by the Centre for Transport and Society - UK....

 

The public know that driver behaviour is a major contributory factor in the vast majority of road accidents... (Cauzard, 2003) - 

But there is a consistent view that OTHERS drive in a riskier manner than individuals themselves do  - (King and Parker, 2008)

It’s not just driving – older children and adolescents think they have good attitude and skills towards road safety but believe that others especially those in their peer group do not - (Tolmie. 2006).

 

Individuals do not believe they are dangerous on the roads but at the same time fervently believe others are.

• I am not likely to be responsible for an accident; others are likely to be responsible. Therefore, little I can do.

• Hence, less likely to need to “plan to avoid them”

• Campaigns aimed at dangerous driving are for “other” drivers not themselves. 

• Such campaigns re-emphasise this difference (2CV, 2008 and Flaming Research, 2008)

• The third-person effect (Davison, 1983). 

• High support for enforcement, engineering solutions and education 

• But not for themselves - for other people.

 

However, the reality can be a long way from these benighted perspectives.

 

 

 

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[1]Politician’s syllogism: - All cats have four legs. My dog has four legs. Therefore, my dog is a cat.

 

[2] Dunning-Kruger effect,  .. a cognitive bias whereby people with limited knowledge or competence in a given intellectual or social domain greatly overestimate their own knowledge or competence in that domain relative to objective criteria or to the performance of their peers or of people in general.  - https://www.britannica.com/science/Dunning-Kruger-effect

 

[3] https://www.cnbc.com/2015/10/23/george-carlin-was-right-other-drivers-are-idiots-and-maniacs.html

Utter dross.

[TropicalGuy]

33 minutes ago, Thunglom said:

fallacious appeal to authority - I note you have broadened you range of countries and have looked up oxymoron on google.

you've already admitted you know nothing about the Safe System which is the international standard for road safety. you have made the elementary mistake of confusing messenger with message.

Appeal to Qualification & Experience

for which some System, reorganizing what I learned many years ago, is no substitute.
Oxymoron is about “ Contradiction” but there wasn’t any ……
Focused Only on the “ Message”. 
Such System and any Statistical Basis will get little or no traction here….

[moe666]

8 hours ago, JimmyJ said:

Vietnam impressed me with the high % of people wearing helmets.

Not counting young passengers below driving age, I would estimate 98% - 99%.

 

I mentioned this to a local, who told me that when it became law there was not a lot of compliance, but then they began fining offenders...

You do know that Vietnam is a communist country

[Thunglom]

1 hour ago, Will B Good said:

I drove for 30 years in the UK and EU averaging over 40,000 miles per year and I can honestly say the standard of driving there is far, far superior to anything I witness in Thailand.

 

Thai driving standards simply are atrocious.....end of

I have driven further the you in UK and EU and 20 yeas in Thailand and a lot further than you. I don't rely on this as I have already said why - what I rely on is  30 years of knowledge of road safety.

What you don't understand is why I'm saying about driving here or in Europe (I've also driven in Oz, USA and North Africa)

I'm saying that the SYSTEMS in Europe prevent idiot drivers from doing want they want. I Thailand no such system exists. so the idiots can still perform. Most European drivers don't realise thy are idiots because the system protects them.

You also need to bet in mind that the Safe System that operates all over Europe is not known or appreciated by drivers (v, Tropicalboy above).

Te result is that when thy come to Thailand left to their own devices, they are unable to adapt and compensate by accusing everyone else but themselves of being bad drivers.

Most Thai drivers are used to driving on Thai roads and know what to expect (note that the death rate in cars is slightly less than the USA. and the number of collisions is the same as UK - the difference is the deaths md injuries - this is down to the driving environment more than crazy drivers.

Most accidents are caused by "HUMAN ERROR" - not "bad driving" Bad driving is subjective whereas human error is definable

 

It has been shown that human error falls largely into one of three principle categories. 

 

First is a perceptual error. Critical information that is below the threshold for seeing - the light was too dim, the driver was blinded by the glare, or the pedestrian's clothes had low contrast. In other cases, the driver made a perceptual misjudgement (a curve's radius or another car's speed or distance). Or in Thailand, just tinted windows!

 

Second and far more common cause is that the critical information was detectable but that the driver failed to attend/notice because his mental resources were focussed elsewhere. Often times, a driver will claim that s/he did not "see" a plainly visible pedestrian or car. This is entirely possible because much of our information processing occurs outside of awareness. - (Mack and Rock, 1998)[1]

 

Third, the driver may correctly process the information but fail to choose the correct response ("I'm skidding, so I'll turn away from the skid") or make the correct decision yet fail to carry it out ("I meant to hit the brake, but I hit the gas"). 

 

Thailand has had a lot of advice from road safety organisations both home and abroad, but somehow this advice does not get through and is overruled by the archaic “we know best” prejudices of successive ill-informed governments and they fail to understand the basic concept of “human error” as opposed to “blame”.

 

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[1] (Mack and Rock (1998) have shown that we can be less likely to perceive an object if we are looking directly at it than if it falls outside the centre of the visual field. This "inattentional blindness" phenomenon is certainly the cause of many RTIs)