Electric Vehicles in Thailand

[vinny41]

3 minutes ago, Pib said:

 

That's the spreadsheet I was using.  I just downloaded it again at 9:45am/today/5Apr and still get 5,001.  See the cells I have Excel totalling up which represent above mentioned RY categories.

 

For RY1 figures are 4,722

For RY3 figures are 21

For RY6 figures are 247

For RY9 figures are 1

For RY10 figures are 13

Total 5,004

[vinny41]

9 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

I think HEV figures are largely irrelevant but I do think PHEV is relevant.

At the moment HEV  is  the 3rd most popular fuel choice after petrol and diesel

It will be interesting to see if BEV overtakes HEV to be come the 3rd most most popular fuel choice after petrol and diesel

[Pib]

1 minute ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

I think HEV figures are largely irrelevant but I do think PHEV is relevant.

Yea...I agree as more and more ICEV turn themselves into an HEV by even installing a small 48V motor/generator married to a very small traction battery of just a few KWH.  That 48V electric system is typically referred to a "mild" HEV because that electric motor can "not" power the HEV by itself....can not drive only on electric power...the HEV can completely recharge its small traction battery without the need to plug-in.   All the 48V system can do is "assist" the combustion engine, replace the noisy the starter, maybe run an electric A/C.

 

Yea....more and more vehicles now days have the HEV badge on them and whether the installed electric system/traction battery can power the car under its own, maybe power the car for just a few kilometers, maybe power the car for 20 kilometers, etc., is a wildcard until looking at the car specs.   

 

ICEV manufacturers are slowing adding "some electric traction" capability to many of their cars, sticking on the HEV badge, but the vehicles are still predominately a combustion engine powered vehicles with some electric motor assistance.  Preaching to the choir I know.

[Niltava]

On 4/4/2024 at 7:34 AM, JBChiangRai said:

 

Whilst I think the Volvo is a fine car, I think it's poor value compared to other EV's on the market.  It's best not to be blinded by the badge, it's from the same country as BYD.

This is the conclusion we came to as well. Whilst it's a great car we have decided that it's not the best value, so have binned it as an option.

[Yellowtail]

16 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

I think HEV figures are largely irrelevant but I do think PHEV is relevant.

Is the only real difference between HEV and PHEV that you can "plug in" to charge the PHEV?

 

 

[Niltava]

On 4/4/2024 at 7:59 AM, vinny41 said:

 I have seen reports of MG ZS EV battery module being available for B75K I think the total number of battery modules are 6

There is a company in Canada selling EX30 battery modules for B315,489

https://www.volvocarstorontoparts.ca/p/Volvo__EX30/Cell-Modules--High-Voltage-Battery-Outer-CELL-MODULE--EXCH/133967523/36012112.html

I asked the Volvo guy to reconfirm the price of the replacement battery. Turns out they are now quoting 500,000 THB.

[Pib]

8 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

For RY1 figures are 4,722

For RY3 figures are 21

For RY6 figures are 247

For RY9 figures are 1

For RY10 figures are 13

Total 5,004

For my spreadsheet

RY1 is 4,720

RY3 is 20

RY6 is 247

RY9 is 1

RY 10 is 13

Total: 5,001

 

I expect due to the DLT website being setup to where you can down stats spreadsheets under different menus that the spreadsheets must vary slightly.

 

[Yellowtail]

5 minutes ago, Pib said:

For my spreadsheet

RY1 is 4,720

RY3 is 20

RY6 is 247

RY9 is 1

RY 10 is 13

Total: 5,001

 

I expect due to the DLT website being setup to where you can down stats spreadsheets under different menus that the spreadsheets must vary slightly.

 

I got 5,003...

[idealistic123]

43 minutes ago, Bandersnatch said:

 

Also now available in black with Dark interior

 

 

Already saw it at the dealership yesterday. If I bought an Atto 3 then it would this color combination. 

[JBChiangRai]

14 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

At the moment HEV  is  the 3rd most popular fuel choice after petrol and diesel

It will be interesting to see if BEV overtakes HEV to be come the 3rd most most popular fuel choice after petrol and diesel

 

I don't think people make a choice to choose HEV, the model they like just happens to be HEV or it's the top model in the range that they would buy anyway.

 

I think PHEV is sometimes a choice.  Often it's not a choice and some people who buy PHEV never plug them in, what I find interesting is customer behaviour.  When Mercedes opened a new dealership in Chiang Rai, I went to the opening and the CEO of MB Thailand was there and we talked about this, he was disappointed that most MB PHEV buyers don't plug them in and he was pleased that I ran mine in EV mode as often as possible.

 

9 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Is the only real difference between HEV and PHEV that you can "plug in" to charge the PHEV?

 

 

 

Yes and you have the option to drive a decent distance in EV mode.

 

4 minutes ago, Pib said:

For my spreadsheet

RY1 is 4,720

RY3 is 20

RY6 is 247

RY9 is 1

RY 10 is 13

Total: 5,001

 

I expect due to the DLT website being setup to where you can down stats spreadsheets under different menus that the spreadsheets must vary slightly.

 

 

I like the KISS methodology (Keep It Simple, Stupid).

[Pib]

10 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Is the only real difference between HEV and PHEV that you can "plug in" to charge the PHEV?

 

HEVs can vary from from Mild HEV to Full HEV with variations in-between depending on the manufacturer....from having no capability to power the vehicle only using the electric motor/traction battery (i.e., can only assist the combustion engine) to being able to totally power the vehicles for a short distance using the electric motor/traction battery.    HEV capability can be all over the map in terms of electric motor/ capability to assisting the combustion engine, traction battery size, etc.  More and more ICEV manufacturers are trying to get the HEV badge on their vehicle to give potential buyers at least a little bit of EV capability....but when the dust settles they are still driving a vehicles that is predominately a combustion power vehicle.

 

Now PHEV is a different story....they have a lot more electric capability, traction battery size, electric only range, etc., than a HEV.  In quite a few cases the person could totally stay in electric mode (combustion engine never be used) depending on how far they are driving.

 

[digbeth]

20 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Is the only real difference between HEV and PHEV that you can "plug in" to charge the PHEV?

 

 

some 'hybrids' can't even be run in pure ev mode, the engine has to be turning all the time or in case of 'mild' hybrids, only has small battery power for air-conditioning so that they can shut off the engine while idling stopping in traffic

[Pib]

6 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

I like the KISS methodology (Keep It Simple, Stupid).

 

Behind all the simple is the data that can reveal many more details versus relying totally on a news article.

[vinny41]

5 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

I don't think people make a choice to choose HEV, the model they like just happens to be HEV or it's the top model in the range that they would buy anyway.

 

I think PHEV is sometimes a choice.  Often it's not a choice and some people who buy PHEV never plug them in, what I find interesting is customer behaviour.  When Mercedes opened a new dealership in Chiang Rai, I went to the opening and the CEO of MB Thailand was there and we talked about this, he was disappointed that most MB PHEV buyers don't plug them in and he was pleased that I ran mine in EV mode as often as possible.

 

 

Yes and you have the option to drive a decent distance in EV mode.

 

 

I like the KISS methodology (Keep It Simple, Stupid).

PHEV is never going to be a huge seller in Thailand it is a niche product which is expensive,

cheapest PHEV at the moment is Haval H6 and MG at B1.4 million

And GWM are not happy selling at that price they want to put the price back to B1.7M

Depending on how often and how far you drive on electric mode, you may not save much fuel or emissions compared to a regular hybrid. PHEVs also have heavier batteries that add weight and reduce cargo space. The main drawback is twice the powertrains - twice the costs, complexity & confusion

If climate change is the main reason for BEV then a halfway house is HEV which reduces  emissions

 

 

 

[Yellowtail]

6 minutes ago, digbeth said:

some 'hybrids' can't even be run in pure ev mode, the engine has to be turning all the time or in case of 'mild' hybrids, only has small battery power for air-conditioning so that they can shut off the engine while idling stopping in traffic

Even my Fortuner can keep the AC running when the POC idle-stop thing kicks in. 

 

 

[BKKBike09]

33 minutes ago, Pib said:

ICEV manufacturers are slowing adding "some electric traction" capability to many of their cars, sticking on the HEV badge, but the vehicles are still predominately a combustion engine powered vehicles with some electric motor assistance.  Preaching to the choir I know.

 

There's always the Nissan Kicks - an electric car that gets its electric power from a petrol engine that only generates electric power. This is a concept that baffles me.

[JBChiangRai]

5 minutes ago, Pib said:

 

Behind all the simple is the data that can reveal many more details versus relying totally on a news article.

 

I accept that, but I don't really have the interest to dive into RY this or RY that, what interests me is the growth in car sales overall and EV's to ICE (I prefer to keep HEV classified as ICE).

 

I don't really have the inclination to dive deep into figures, a summary suits me just fine, but I appreciate others may enjoy a deep dive.

[Yellowtail]

9 minutes ago, Pib said:

HEVs can vary from from Mild HEV to Full HEV with variations in-between depending on the manufacturer....from having no capability to power the vehicle only using the electric motor/traction battery (i.e., can only assist the combustion engine) to being able to totally power the vehicles for a short distance using the electric motor/traction battery.    HEV capability can be all over the map in terms of electric motor/ capability to assisting the combustion engine, traction battery size, etc.  More and more ICEV manufacturers are trying to get the HEV badge on their vehicle to give potential buyers at least a little bit of EV capability....but when the dust settles they are still driving a vehicles that is predominately a combustion power vehicle.

 

Now PHEV is a different story....they have a lot more electric capability, traction battery size, electric only range, etc., than a HEV.  In quite a few cases the person could totally stay in electric mode (combustion engine never be used) depending on how far they are driving.

 

Do you have an example of a vehicle that comes both or all three or four? 

 

A lot of people just buy the most expensive model of a car they like. 

[Yellowtail]

1 minute ago, BKKBike09 said:

 

There's always the Nissan Kicks - an electric car that gets its electric power from a petrol engine that only generates electric power. This is a concept that baffles me.

Why? Virtually every locomotive in the US is powered this way as are many/most newer luxury yachts. 

 

You would get the performance of an electric motor, and the convenience and range of an ICE.  

[JBChiangRai]

3 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

PHEV is never going to be a huge seller in Thailand it is a niche product which is expensive,

cheapest PHEV at the moment is Haval H6 and MG at B1.4 million

And GWM are not happy selling at that price they want to put the price back to B1.7M

Depending on how often and how far you drive on electric mode, you may not save much fuel or emissions compared to a regular hybrid. PHEVs also have heavier batteries that add weight and reduce cargo space. The main drawback is twice the powertrains - twice the costs, complexity & confusion

If climate change is the main reason for BEV then a halfway house is HEV which reduces  emissions

 

 

 

 

I think PHEV helps to give those that think Thailand is not ready for EV's, the confidence to think about full EV later.  Some drivers can operate in EV mode almost all the time.

 

3 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Even my Fortuner can keep the AC running when the POC idle-stop thing kicks in. 

 

 

 

You can thank electric aircon compressors for that

 

1 minute ago, BKKBike09 said:

 

There's always the Nissan Kicks - an electric car that gets its electric power from a petrol engine that only generates electric power. This is a concept that baffles me.

 

A weird approach, but it does lend itself to HEV mode or full BEV mode by simply replacing the ICE generator with a battery.  Insanity if you ask me, but to be expected from a company who S & P rate their credit as "Junk".

[sirineou]

Remember a couple of months ago when , I said that BEVs are fine, would probably buy one, but the future is in Hydrogen fuel cell batteries

and one of my arguments was that conventional batteries are too heavy. 

Stellantis seems to agree with me 

" Stellantis CEO Wants To Cut EV Battery Weight In Half"

" Carlos Tavares said that an EV with a 250-mile range requires 500 kg of additional materials compared to an ICE model"

https://www.carscoops.com/2024/04/stellantis-ceo-wants-to-cut-the-weight-of-ev-batteries-in-half/

[JBChiangRai]

2 minutes ago, sirineou said:

Remember a couple of months ago when , I said that BEVs are fine, would probably buy one, but the future is in Hydrogen fuel cell batteries

and one of my arguments was that conventional batteries are too heavy. 

Stellantis seems to agree with me 

" Stellantis CEO Wants To Cut EV Battery Weight In Half"

" Carlos Tavares said that an EV with a 250-mile range requires 500 kg of additional materials compared to an ICE model"

https://www.carscoops.com/2024/04/stellantis-ceo-wants-to-cut-the-weight-of-ev-batteries-in-half/

 

With advances in battery technology, it will happen easily

[KhunLA]

20 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Do you have an example of a vehicle that comes both or all three or four?  ... A lot of people just buy the most expensive model of a car they like. 

Not me, and just buy what I need and or think I'll use.  Present EV is entry model, and still a  feature or 2 that are disabled or not use.

 

Does 2 things, saves us money from buy in, and headaches of the options ( as they do) fail in the future.  Most complaints about cars are the options, as the manufacturers seem to have the drivetrain down to a science.

[sirineou]

Just now, JBChiangRai said:

 

With advances in battery technology, it will happen easily

Perhaps, 

But once there is a hydrogen infustracture, as there will be soon, every major country is investing heavily in it. Why try to Development "advanced battery tech" when there is an abundant, cheap alternative, liteweight,  battery system already?

"Japan plans hydrogen production with next-generation nuclear reactor — using heat and only minimal electricity "

"The country’s nuclear research agency, the Japan Atomic Energy Agency (JAEA), last week passed a safety test on its novel High Temperature Gas Cooled Reactor (HTGR), and is now planning hydrogen production field trials using waste heat from the plant as soon as 2028, Japanese daily Nikkei reported. "

https://www.hydrogeninsight.com/production/japan-plans-hydrogen-production-with-next-generation-nuclear-reactor-using-heat-and-only-minimal-electricity/2-1-1621135

[vinny41]

5 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

I think PHEV helps to give those that think Thailand is not ready for EV's, the confidence to think about full EV later.  Some drivers can operate in EV mode almost all the time.

 

 

You can thank electric aircon compressors for that

 

 

A weird approach, but it does lend itself to HEV mode or full BEV mode by simply replacing the ICE generator with a battery.  Insanity if you ask me, but to be expected from a company who S & P rate their credit as "Junk".

You have overlooked the Price of PHEV in Thailand

PHEV is never going to be a huge seller in Thailand it is a niche product which is expensive,

cheapest PHEV at the moment is Haval H6 and MG at B1.4 million

Cheapest HEV price starts around B789K 

Petrol PHEV total  registrations for 2023 11,495

Diesel PHEV total  registrations for 2023 208

HEV total registrations for 2023 85,022

[KhunLA]

12 minutes ago, sirineou said:

Perhaps, 

But once there is a hydrogen infustracture, as there will be soon, every major country is investing heavily in it. Why try to Development "advanced battery tech" when there is an abundant, cheap alternative, liteweight,  battery system already?

"Japan plans hydrogen production with next-generation nuclear reactor — using heat and only minimal electricity "

"The country’s nuclear research agency, the Japan Atomic Energy Agency (JAEA), last week passed a safety test on its novel High Temperature Gas Cooled Reactor (HTGR), and is now planning hydrogen production field trials using waste heat from the plant as soon as 2028, Japanese daily Nikkei reported. "

https://www.hydrogeninsight.com/production/japan-plans-hydrogen-production-with-next-generation-nuclear-reactor-using-heat-and-only-minimal-electricity/2-1-1621135

Doubt that very much, as H been around for at least 27 years in USA, and here's the H infrastructure over those 27 years.   Most of the few there, are located in CA & NY.

 

[transam]

4 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Doubt that very much, as H been around for at least 27 years in USA, and here's the H infrastructure over those 27 years.   Most of the few there, are located in CA & NY.

 

Not enough H cars on the road to warrant more refill infrastructure, same as EV stuff in LOS, as buyers will find out, as the sales increase..............🤔

[Yellowtail]

7 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Doubt that very much, as H been around for at least 27 years in USA, and here's the H infrastructure over those 27 years.   Most of the few there, are located in CA & NY.

 

And EVs were here for over a hundred years, yes? 

 

f the issue with H is the cost, and if it can be effectively produced for "free" as a byproduct of producing electricity, market share will grow exponentially. 

[JBChiangRai]

44 minutes ago, sirineou said:

Perhaps, 

But once there is a hydrogen infustracture, as there will be soon, every major country is investing heavily in it. Why try to Development "advanced battery tech" when there is an abundant, cheap alternative, liteweight,  battery system already?

"Japan plans hydrogen production with next-generation nuclear reactor — using heat and only minimal electricity "

"The country’s nuclear research agency, the Japan Atomic Energy Agency (JAEA), last week passed a safety test on its novel High Temperature Gas Cooled Reactor (HTGR), and is now planning hydrogen production field trials using waste heat from the plant as soon as 2028, Japanese daily Nikkei reported. "

https://www.hydrogeninsight.com/production/japan-plans-hydrogen-production-with-next-generation-nuclear-reactor-using-heat-and-only-minimal-electricity/2-1-1621135

 

11 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

And EVs were here for over a hundred years, yes? 

 

f the issue with H is the cost, and if it can be effectively produced for "free" as a byproduct of producing electricity, market share will grow exponentially. 

 

Hydrogen is always going to cost more per mile than a BEV, currently at least 5 times more, it will never be better than twice as much.

 

Whilst there is H2 underground, it's neither accessible nor economic to frack it.  The only sustainable way to produce it is to electrolyse water.  33% of the energy used to produce it is wasted producing Oxygen (which you can produce far cheaper), it is mathematically impossible to improve on that figure which assumes 100% efficiency in the electrolysis which is also impossible.  Then we have to compress it and distribute it to fuel stations and finally use it in the car, presumably a H2 Fuel Cell which is unlikely to be ever more than 65% efficient as heat is produced as a waste product.

 

I believe you will see H2 cars but they will cost more to run so they will have to be cheaper to buy or people won't buy them. 

 

The other issue is time to refuel, it currently takes 10 minutes to refuel H2 for 300km, it will be no faster than future BEV's which may well be shorter.

[Yellowtail]

2 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

 

Hydrogen is always going to cost more per mile than a BEV, currently at least 5 times more, it will never be better than twice as much.

 

Whilst there is H2 underground, it's neither accessible nor economic to frack it.  The only sustainable way to produce it is to electrolyse water.  33% of the energy used to produce it is wasted producing Oxygen (which you can produce far cheaper), it is mathematically impossible to improve on that figure which assumes 100% efficiency in the electrolysis which is also impossible.  Then we have to compress it and distribute it to fuel stations and finally use it in the car, presumably a H2 Fuel Cell which is unlikely to be ever more than 65% efficient as heat is produced as a waste product.

 

I believe you will see H2 cars but they will cost more to run so they will have to be cheaper to buy or people won't buy them. 

 

The other issue is time to refuel, it currently takes 10 minutes to refuel H2 for 300km, it will be no faster than future BEV's which may well be shorter.

So you did not read the article?