Jan. 6 committee says probe shows Trump led and directed effort to overturn 2020 election

[ozimoron]

17 minutes ago, nauseus said:

No. I mean fighting like hell for things like your own life in an ICU, or anything else that you value dearly. Fighting like hell does not necessarily have to mean or infer law-breaking, or physical violence. It's quite a commonly accepted figure of speech. You may have heard of it. 

The vote was done. he was appealing to known violent domestic terrorist groups to fight. there is no other reasonable interpretation. he even suggested Pence deserved to be hung. Furthermore, when it became clear that fighting was actually happening he refused to stop it.

Edited June 12, 2022 by ozimoron

[herfiehandbag]

On 6/11/2022 at 1:33 PM, Phoenix Rising said:

The committee doesn't have that power. You see, in a functioning democracy (and the US still is that despite Trump's best efforts) that power belongs to the Justice Department.

Anything else you're confused about just ask.

 

On 6/11/2022 at 1:36 PM, Phoenix Rising said:

"...incurred the same wrath..."

 

Incur wrath? Is that MAGA speak for getting prosecuted for your crimes?

As an (interested) outside observer I have recently found that if one interprets MAGA as meaning "My Attorney Got Arrested" many things which seemed confusing become much clearer!

[placeholder]

6 hours ago, nauseus said:

Lots of claims there in the first para but no proof re taken to the cleaners stuff.

You really don't know about Trump's repeated business failures? Honestly? How can someone even formulate a rational opinion about Trump's sense of judgement if they don't know this?

https://www.thoughtco.com/donald-trump-business-bankruptcies-4152019

https://www.businessinsider.com/donald-trump-airline-shuttle-transportation-pan-am-eastern-new-york-2019-1

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2022/04/donald-trump-truth-social-disaster

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-organization-used-borrow-major-banks-now-look-lending-money-rcna22068

https://apnews.com/article/north-america-donald-trump-ap-top-news-tax-evasion-politics-0452d29cd2564eaf97605ab90acc3a67

 

Edited June 12, 2022 by placeholder

[Fat is a type of crazy]

2 hours ago, Phoenix Rising said:

If, at this point in time, some people still don't grasp the fact that trump did his best (which, luckily, has never been very good) to overturn the election and subvert democracy there really is no hope for you. You have willfully chosen to disregard facts and to subscribe to insane conspiracy theories because reality doesn't conform to your liking.

trump was the C-in-C and the ultimate protector of the US and by trying to overturn the election he committed treason of the worst kind.

He should pay the ultimate price.

That’s the point with Trump in general. He just lights spot fires and sees what happens. He was not good or smart enough to have practical ideas to overturn the election and the ideas he does have are executed poorly and fail miserably. His own lack of talent and ability to think up and execute a plan effectively may keep him out of jail. 

[ozimoron]

Pence-world’s final takedown of Trump’s Jan. 6 bid to remain in power revealed in his lawyer's memo

Top adviser told the then-vice president that the courts would likely not support him if he gave in to Trump's pressure to delay certifying electoral votes.

 

https://www.politico.com/news/2022/06/11/pence-trump-jan-6-lawyer-memo-00038996

[nauseus]

10 minutes ago, Phoenix Rising said:

Quite correct so it all depends on the context and situation. When a coach tells his sports team to go out there and fight like hell we all know what he means.

But when a sitting president falsely claims the election was stolen and he urges his most ardent supporters (all fired up and not exactly mental giants) to march on the Capitol and fight like hell I'd say the chances of them taking his words literally are a solid 100%. Which they did, and people died.

Get it now?

 

I get that you're distorting the fight like hell wording, quotation and context and invite you to listen to the speech again. When this phrase was used, Trump was near the end of his speech and the violent actors  were already breeching the amazingly weak Capitol security. 

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, nauseus said:

I get that you're distorting the fight like hell wording, quotation and context and invite you to listen to the speech again. When this phrase was used, Trump was near the end of his speech and the violent actors  were already breeching the amazingly weak Capitol security. 

Then he already knew that the rioters were already rioting and far from calling them to stand down he threw gasoline onto the fire.

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, placeholder said:

You really don't know about Trump's repeated business failures? Honestly? How can someone even formulate a rational opinion about Trump's sense of judgement if they don't know this?

https://www.thoughtco.com/donald-trump-business-bankruptcies-4152019

https://www.businessinsider.com/donald-trump-airline-shuttle-transportation-pan-am-eastern-new-york-2019-1

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2022/04/donald-trump-truth-social-disaster

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-organization-used-borrow-major-banks-now-look-lending-money-rcna22068

https://apnews.com/article/north-america-donald-trump-ap-top-news-tax-evasion-politics-0452d29cd2564eaf97605ab90acc3a67

 

 

I read these stories years ago but business failures don't all mean being "taken to the cleaners". Some of the best in business take quite a few hits but also make at least as many successful recoveries, before consolidating their wealth.

 

If Trump is such a dunce how come he's ended up with billions, great real estate assets and that stunning wife?  

[nauseus]

16 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

Then he already knew that the rioters were already rioting and far from calling them to stand down he threw gasoline onto the fire.

I don't know what he knew at that time but he should have tried to help stop the problem as soon as he did know. I've had to assume that his own security would have known by the end of the speech and whisked him of back to the WH for his own safety - he was still the President then.

 

That said, the general security arrangements for that day seemed totally inadequate, especially if what Cheyney said is true and it was known in advance by FBI etc. this invasion of the Capitol was all pre-planned.

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, Chomper Higgot said:

The fanatical Trump supporters heard it loud and clear, then went directly to the Capitol to attempt a violent overthrow of the lawful democratic process of declaring the election result.

Find the timeline.

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, ozimoron said:

The vote was done. he was appealing to known violent domestic terrorist groups to fight. there is no other reasonable interpretation. he even suggested Pence deserved to be hung. Furthermore, when it became clear that fighting was actually happening he refused to stop it.

I  know you'd loathe it but you should listen to the full speech sometime.

[ozimoron]

2 minutes ago, nauseus said:

I  know you'd loathe it but you should listen to the full speech sometime.

i listened to all of it live, and the people before him. i wouldn't participate in debate if i didn't know what was going on.

 

How about you? Did you watch the entire House proceedings on Friday?

Edited June 12, 2022 by ozimoron

[nauseus]

Just now, ozimoron said:

i listened to all of it live, and the people before him. i wouldn't participate in debate if i didn't know what was going on.

Perhaps just a slight memory lapse then. It was 18 months ago after all. 

[ozimoron]

7 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Perhaps just a slight memory lapse then. It was 18 months ago after all. 

"You don't concede when there's theft involved. Our country has had enough. We will not take it anymore."

 

'If you don't fight like hell you're not going to have a country anymore'

 

"You will have an illegitimate president. That is what you will have, and we can't let that happen."

 

'Peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard'

 

'We are going to the Capitol'

 

Dog whistling doesn't override the other quotes.

----------------------

 

He clearly knew there were people in that crowd who were ready to and intended to be violent, and he certainly did nothing to discourage that. He not only did nothing to discourage it, he strongly hinted it should happen.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-55640437

 

Edited June 12, 2022 by ozimoron

[ozimoron]

8 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Perhaps just a slight memory lapse then. It was 18 months ago after all. 

You dodged my question in response to your allegation that I didn't watch his speech. Did you watch the House proceedings or not?

[Chomper Higgot]

29 minutes ago, nauseus said:

I'd prefer it if you could refrain from making judgment on my ability to make rational opinions, without personally knowing me. 

 

I read these stories years ago but business failures don't all mean being "taken to the cleaners". Some of the best in business take quite a few hits but also make at least as many successful recoveries, before consolidating their wealth.

 

If Trump is such a dunce how come he's ended up with billions, great real estate assets and that stunning wife?  

I’ll make a punt.

 

Anyone who’s combined asset and liabilities are a net positive is wealthier than Donald Trump.

 

His wife is not working he topic of discussion, but she’s certainly not stunning.

[Chomper Higgot]

23 minutes ago, nauseus said:

I don't know what he knew at that time but he should have tried to help stop the problem as soon as he did know. I've had to assume that his own security would have known by the end of the speech and whisked him of back to the WH for his own safety - he was still the President then.

 

That said, the general security arrangements for that day seemed totally inadequate, especially if what Cheyney said is true and it was known in advance by FBI etc. this invasion of the Capitol was all pre-planned.

So in the event that evidence is produced that demonstrates Trump knew but failed to act your position is?

[candide]

27 minutes ago, nauseus said:

I don't know what he knew at that time but he should have tried to help stop the problem as soon as he did know

That would be a case of failure to act. It is the duty of a president to protect the U.S. Constitution and its institutions. On top of it, if it comes up to be the outcome, not only of negligence, but also of common interest with and sympathy for the rioters, it would be an aggravating circumstance.

[Chomper Higgot]

3 minutes ago, candide said:

That would be a case of failure to act. It is the duty of a president to protect the U.S. Constitution and its institutions. On top of it, if it comes up to be the outcome, not only of negligence, but also of common interest with and sympathy for the rioters, it would be an aggravating circumstance.

Not just the President.

 

Members of Congress and the Senate are also sworn to uphold the US Constitution and it’s enemies, against all enemies foreign and domestic.

 

So who knew what and when did they know it.

 

Let’s start with those begging for pardons.

[placeholder]

33 minutes ago, nauseus said:

 

I read these stories years ago but business failures don't all mean being "taken to the cleaners". Some of the best in business take quite a few hits but also make at least as many successful recoveries, before consolidating their wealth.

 

If Trump is such a dunce how come he's ended up with billions, great real estate assets and that stunning wife?  

Well, for one thing, he used bankruptcy law to protect him from the consequences of his bad decisions:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1992/11/29/trump-went-broke-but-stayed-on-top/e1685555-1de7-400c-99a8-9cd9c0bca9fe/

Also he got really lucky. The Apprentice came along and changed for everything for him.  It sold the world on the idea that Trump was a great businessman. 

 

 

[onthedarkside]

As of a few days ago, the U.S. Attorney's Office for the District of Columbia had the following recap of Capitol riot prosecutions:

 

"In the 17 months since Jan. 6, 2021, more than 800 individuals have been arrested in nearly all 50 states for crimes related to the breach of the U.S. Capitol, including over 250 individuals charged with assaulting or impeding law enforcement. The investigation remains ongoing."

 

https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/pr/leader-proud-boys-and-four-other-members-indicted-federal-court-seditious-conspiracy-an-0

 

Back in January on the 1 year anniversary of the riot, the same U.S. Attorney's Office had the following recap as of that time:

 

"...including over 75 individuals who have been charged with using a deadly or dangerous weapon or causing serious bodily injury to an officer."

 

"Approximately 140 police officers were assaulted Jan. 6 at the Capitol including about 80 U.S. Capitol Police and about 60 from the Metropolitan Police Department."

 

"At least 275 defendants have been charged with corruptly obstructing, influencing, or impeding an official proceeding, or attempting to do so."

 

https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/one-year-jan-6-attack-capitol

 

 Per ABC News:

 

"The riot -- which followed a months-long disinformation campaign by former President Donald Trump and his allies, who claimed without evidence that the election had been stolen through fraud -- lasted seven hours, during which approximately 10,000 people came onto Capitol grounds, with many engaging in violent clashes with officers trying to protect the building and lawmakers inside. At least 2,000 made it inside the Capitol building.

 

https://abc7.com/jan-6-insurrection-us-capitol-riot/11428976/

 

[candide]

15 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Well, for one thing, he used bankruptcy law to protect him from the consequences of his bad decisions:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1992/11/29/trump-went-broke-but-stayed-on-top/e1685555-1de7-400c-99a8-9cd9c0bca9fe/

Also he got really lucky. The Apprentice came along and changed for everything for him.  It sold the world on the idea that Trump was a great businessman. 

 

 

Nowonder he never wanted to disclose his tax returns. That would have shown what a fail he is (among other reasons ????)

[placeholder]

4 minutes ago, candide said:

Nowonder he never wanted to disclose his tax returns. That would have shown what a fail he is (among other reasons ????)

Actually, early in his career he did do some great complicated projects. Although, his father was still there to help him But as time went by he became more and more impulsive. His deals for the Casinos, the Plaza, the Trump shuttle were way too high priced. He got out-negotiated.

[scorecard]

On 6/10/2022 at 11:38 PM, Jingthing said:

It's not like he's EVER going to change but on the other hand sending him to Club Fed might help. 

I wonder how long he would last there?

What jobs should he be assigned to:

- toilet scrubbing with no gloves,

- peeling carrots (to match his hair colour),

- cleaning up the mess room after each meal and then being told by the warden 'you're fired'. But of course it's a lie (what isn't where he's concerned) because he has to return to mess clean up duties after next and all meals)

- documenting the lies told by the chief warden, 

- writing FOX news scripts including 'the election wasn't rigged, it was proven to be legitimate' at least 5 times every minute.

- not allowed to have fast foods. Etc....

[scorecard]

2 hours ago, placeholder said:

You really don't know about Trump's repeated business failures? Honestly? How can someone even formulate a rational opinion about Trump's sense of judgement if they don't know this?

https://www.thoughtco.com/donald-trump-business-bankruptcies-4152019

https://www.businessinsider.com/donald-trump-airline-shuttle-transportation-pan-am-eastern-new-york-2019-1

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2022/04/donald-trump-truth-social-disaster

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-organization-used-borrow-major-banks-now-look-lending-money-rcna22068

https://apnews.com/article/north-america-donald-trump-ap-top-news-tax-evasion-politics-0452d29cd2564eaf97605ab90acc3a67

 

Well said and highly relevant.

[pomchop]

That is really some strong kool aide that the cult is drinking if they just can't grasp that he is a con man and a criminal who tried every trick he and his cult members could dream up to try and block the peaceful transfer of power.....not to mention a long line of tax and bank fraud...all  nicely documented by trumps own signature and words and keeping two sets of books.  It would take an extreme case of see no evil hear no evil la la la la  to not  see or hear the evidence of crimes most of it verified by trumps own words on video over and over as well as testified to under oath by a wide range of people to include his own inner circle who were there and saw and heard first hand the attempted overthrow of the election results, attempted tax and bank fraud and a long list of crimes.

 

Indict him for every single crime and let the courts and judges and jury sort it out..you know like the 3 co equal power branches of the govt is supposed to do...just because you were president isn't supposed to  mean you can just openly ignore both criminal and civil laws.

 

 

[ozimoron]

7 minutes ago, pomchop said:

That is really some strong kool aide that the cult is drinking if they just can't grasp that he is a con man and a criminal who tried every trick he and his cult members could dream up to try and block the peaceful transfer of power.....not to mention a long line of tax and bank fraud...all  nicely documented by trumps own signature and words and keeping two sets of books.  It would take an extreme case of see no evil hear no evil la la la la  to not  see or hear the evidence of crimes most of it verified by trumps own words on video over and over as well as testified to under oath by a wide range of people to include his own inner circle who were there and saw and heard first hand the attempted overthrow of the election results, attempted tax and bank fraud and a long list of crimes.

 

Indict him for every single crime and let the courts and judges and jury sort it out..you know like the 3 co equal power branches of the govt is supposed to do...just because you were president isn't supposed to  mean you can just openly ignore both criminal and civil laws.

 

 

The kool aid is simultaneously a truth serum. They know that if Trump goes down the GOP blow any chance of regaining the house and senate at the next election, let alone the presidency itself. the more wacky and conspiratorial trump gets, the more they need to support those theories. He deliberately appealed to the lowest common denominator, fascists, incels, white supremacists, racists and misogynists were forced to the fringes of society until trump came along and gave them a feeling of legitimacy. they will repeat any lie rather than lose all that.

Edited June 12, 2022 by ozimoron

[nauseus]

2 hours ago, ozimoron said:

You dodged my question in response to your allegation that I didn't watch his speech. Did you watch the House proceedings or not?

Not a dodge. If you mean the prime time Kangaroo Court Show then yes. 

[nauseus]

2 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

So in the event that evidence is produced that demonstrates Trump knew but failed to act your position is?

Read my comment again.

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, candide said:

That would be a case of failure to act. It is the duty of a president to protect the U.S. Constitution and its institutions. On top of it, if it comes up to be the outcome, not only of negligence, but also of common interest with and sympathy for the rioters, it would be an aggravating circumstance.

Judge Judy?