LTR Visa is Now available for Long Term Residency

[JackGats]

47 minutes ago, BritTim said:

Unfortunately, it is my understanding that they want every page in your passport with Thai stamps, including those you have already provided to BOI.

My passport is brand new. The only border-stamp I have is the one I got when I left Thailand on the 1st of June. There won't be many pages to scan unless of course they ask to see the pages of my old canceled passport.

[BritTim]

4 minutes ago, JackGats said:

My passport is brand new. The only border-stamp I have is the one I got when I left Thailand on the 1st of June. There won't be many pages to scan unless of course they ask to see the pages of my old canceled passport.

That may be necessary if the original application was made using the old passport. I would ask BOI.

[JackGats]

58 minutes ago, BritTim said:

That may be necessary if the original application was made using the old passport. I would ask BOI.

You mean the original LTR applications? It wasn't. I just sent my LTR application 10 minutes ago. Along the way I read something to the effect it might be necessary to upload pages of an older passport upon request. Plenty of Thai stamps on the old passport. On the new one hardly any, everything summarised on the infamous "visa stamp transfer" from old to new.

[nglodnig]

IMHO worthless. What does it give you (even if you qualify for the pension requirement which I don't - if somebody had that much money for a pension why would they choose Thailand over another country?) 

[MPoll]

7 hours ago, JackGats said:

You mean the original LTR applications? It wasn't. I just sent my LTR application 10 minutes ago. Along the way I read something to the effect it might be necessary to upload pages of an older passport upon request. Plenty of Thai stamps on the old passport. On the new one hardly any, everything summarised on the infamous "visa stamp transfer" from old to new.

I had a similar issue when I applied last October and they started processing in December. I think originally I just uploaded the data page. Then they ask for the entry stamp from my last entry. My last entry was Sep 2019. I finally figured out that they were thinking that I may have made some exit/entries during the Covid years. I decided to give them a copy of all the pages of my passport from Sep 2019 to the end of my passport including the remaining 4 blank pages. That satisfied them. So I would consider sending them every page of your passport. 

[MPoll]

4 hours ago, nglodnig said:

IMHO worthless. What does it give you (even if you qualify for the pension requirement which I don't - if somebody had that much money for a pension why would they choose Thailand over another country?) 

Really? Maybe because Thailand is a great place to be. I’ve lived here 6 years and I got my pensioner LTR IN January. There have been well over 3000 LTR’s approved. I know plenty of “wealthy” expats that have chosen to live here. I always find it amazing the number of people that think Thailand is some sort of hardship post for people at the lower end of the income spectrum who seemingly have nowhere else to go.

[Pib]

5 hours ago, nglodnig said:

IMHO worthless. What does it give you (even if you qualify for the pension requirement which I don't - if somebody had that much money for a pension why would they choose Thailand over another country?) 

Double really?  Where a person wants to retire (whether they are well off or not so well off) is totally up to them.  Maybe it's because they have Thai family, maybe they like the low cost of living in Thailand, maybe they really enjoy the Thai culture, maybe...maybe....maybe a whole host of reasons the person decided on Thailand.   Face it....Thailand is a popular location.

[ThailandRyan]

11 minutes ago, Pib said:

Double really?  Where a person wants to retire (whether they are well off or not so well off) is totally up to them.  Maybe it's because they have Thai family, maybe they like the low cost of living in Thailand, maybe they really enjoy the Thai culture, maybe...maybe....maybe a whole host of reasons the person decided on Thailand.   Face it....Thailand is a popular location.

Unfortunately, we can never please all of the people who are just a tad bit jealous there are folks like us who chose the LTR Visa because we qualified for it. Some do not think that folks like us live here in Thailand or some of us own a house/condo here, and travel back and forth to other locales.  If you remember the very beginnings of this OP you can see the same comments as the poster you quoted and commented too.

 

Having my condo here in BKK my house in PKK, and a house in the US allows us to travel back and forth in an easier fashion with the LTR Visa versus the old Non Imm-O-A with a multiple entry stamp. When you look at the cost of both they are essentially identical in price over the 10 year period and with the LTR we do not have to do 90 day reports or an annual extension or buy the multiple re-entry permit, plus we can use the fast track services.

[Pib]

11 hours ago, JackGats said:

I understand. So since I'm waiting outside Thailand for LTR approval I shall have to resubmit at least the page with the new Suvarnabhumi entry stamp.

 

I daren't opt for the stamping of the LTR at the Thai consulate in my "home" country lest said consulate raise the issue of territoriality and/or official residence. I am no longer a resident in my home country, just here visiting family.

You would probably just provide that on the day of your appointment...the BoI rep would just add that to the paper package they have built for you.  Not uncommon for some last minute, very recently updated documentation that needs to be added to the package before going across the hall from the BoI office to the  Immigration office where the very last step of the LTR process occurs over an hour or so.

 

Heck, some people between the time they make their LTR issue appointment which could be an appointment weeks or longer away might make some trip that results in another stamp or two in their passport which might also result in a new TM6 if the reentry was at a land border.   

 

BoI is just trying to get the "very latest" copy of your passport and some key docs before the LTR appointment day....avoid the need to make a bunch of copies on the big day.

[Misty]

6 hours ago, nglodnig said:

IMHO worthless. What does it give you (even if you qualify for the pension requirement which I don't - if somebody had that much money for a pension why would they choose Thailand over another country?) 

How Thailand doesn't tax offshore investment income, for one.

[JimGant]

7 hours ago, nglodnig said:

if somebody had that much money for a pension why would they choose Thailand over another country?

Why would someone who dislikes Thailand make 592 posts in a Thailand related forum.......? Sounds like your poverty has created a case of sour grapes.

[jayboy]

As a matter of interest what is the rationale behind the "wealthy pensioner" category particularly as the financial criteria for income have been set at a relatively low financial level?

[ThailandRyan]

38 minutes ago, jayboy said:

As a matter of interest what is the rationale behind the "wealthy pensioner" category particularly as the financial criteria for income have been set at a relatively low financial level?

In your view 80K USD may be a low level for the West, EU and UK, but for Thailand that's around 225K Thb per month.  How many Thai's make that type of money, ergo why its an amount they decided to use as the WP amount.  How many working expats, working here in Thailand also make that kind of money, the answer would seem to be just a small percentage and why those that make this type of money on a pension are looked at as wealthy, for Thailand at least.

 

How many pensioners make almost 8K USD a month on there pensions? Again its a small percentage.

Edited July 18, 2023 by ThailandRyan

[JackGats]

49 minutes ago, jayboy said:

As a matter of interest what is the rationale behind the "wealthy pensioner" category particularly as the financial criteria for income have been set at a relatively low financial level?

It's a question of vocab. "Wealthy" was not the best term. "Well-off" or "of independent means" would have been better.

[Pib]

2 hours ago, jayboy said:

As a matter of interest what is the rationale behind the "wealthy pensioner" category particularly as the financial criteria for income have been set at a relatively low financial level?

I'm sure when the govt dreamed up the LTR program years ago they first decided what categories of people they wanted to attract.   One of those categories was "pensioners."  And of course they wanted some sexy sounding names for the different LTR categories as sexy sells.   

 

Now the name they gave of "Wealthy Pensioner" was probably selected because it sounds HiSo, sexy, etc....kinda like the HiSo, sexy sounding LTR category of "Wealthy Global Citizen" that implies someone who is a citizen of the world....like a citizen of every country on Earth...can easy afford to do nothing but travel from country to country their entire life... real HiSo, sexy sounding.   Yea, when you are selling something you want that something to have a sexy sounding name as sexy sells better.  

 

But beyond the selection of HiSo, sexy sounding LTR category names I'm sure Thai govt agencies "like the BoI" knew they needed to have good income statistics for each of the LTR categories as the govt didn't want to set the requirements "too high" but at the same time they also didn't want to set them too low.   

 

So, disregarding HiSo, sexy sounding LTR names what does a typical "pensioner" make in most western countries.  Well, the typical annual "retirement income" in the U.S. according to the U.S. Census Bureau is approx $76K/year for a 55 to 64 year old (but for many this amount surely includes very significant income from still working),  but by age 65 many have stopped working and only have pension/passive retirement income and now the average retirement income amount has dropped to approx $48K/year.   See snapshot at bottom.   I expect these U.S. retirement income amounts are similar to other western countries like in Europe.   

 

Also keep in mind these "average" amounts in the U.S. Census Bureau stats is a "median" type average where half the people made less and half made more.  If the statistics were based on how people typically determine an average by adding up say the income of say 1000 people and then dividing 1000 then that that average figure could very well reflect a much higher (or lower) average amount and this type of average is called a "mean."   Mean, median, etc.,....math still hurts my head!

  

 

So, when the Thai govt picked the $80K/year wealthy pensioner level for the "average" retiree over 65 making around $48K, an  $80K amount is about 67% (two-thirds) higher than the average retiree's income amount and that average retiree might feel his fellow retiree making $80K is wealthy. 

 

And since the Thai govt probably wanted to focus on upper income tiers of retirees for the pensioner category that's probably why they picked the $80K/year requirement level with no investment amount required.  But if a retiree with a more average retirement income in the $40K/year ballpark then they also created a $40K to less than $80K/year with $250K investment requirement.  Additionally, such amounts definitely sound wealthy to the typical Thai. 

 

So, assuming the Thai govt based the LTR Pensioner requirements on statistics like U.S. Census Bureau stats and wanted to focus the LTR pensioner category on those pensioners in the upper tier retirement income stats, then $80K/year was probably about right.     And then if a person wants to throw in typical "Thai pensioner" income level that is surely a LOT lower than a typical farang retiree income level then a HiSo, sexy sounding LTR name like Wealthy Pensioner fits.

 

 

https://www.annuityexpertadvice.com/good-monthly-retirement-income/#:~:text=According to U.S. Census Bureau,2020 to %2447%2C620 in 2021.

Edited July 18, 2023 by Pib

[jayboy]

1 hour ago, ThailandRyan said:

In your view 80K USD may be a low level for the West, EU and UK, but for Thailand that's around 225K Thb per month.  How many Thai's make that type of money, ergo why its an amount they decided to use as the WP amount.  How many working expats, working here in Thailand also make that kind of money, the answer would seem to be just a small percentage and why those that make this type of money on a pension are looked at as wealthy, for Thailand at least.

 

How many pensioners make almost 8K USD a month on there pensions? Again its a small percentage.

I'm not sure that comparing required income for LTR wealthy pensioners with Thai levels is relevant.As for corporate expats working here I can assure you that the level is often far above (2 or 3 times or much more) Baht 225,000 per month especially when benefits in kind (often taxable) are taken into account.

 

The point of the LTR scheme is to attract high potential foreigners who would like to relocate to Thailand long-term, the purpose being to help boost economic development and stimulate overseas investment in the country.The other categories of the LTR scheme are consistent with this aim but not the "wealthy pensioner" category.I think its great that some pensioners are able to take advantage of this scheme but the BOI rationale remains obscure.

[Pib]

 

And here's some more stats on the average U.S. retirement income....it gives an excellent example of what that average is based on "mean and median" averages which are calculated differently. 

 

The "mean" average which is how most people figure out an average will usually be much higher than a "median" average when talking about income levels of many, many people....like the entire population of a country as the upper income tiers will usually make a mean average much higher than a median average. 

 

 

Webpage Link

[Pib]

5 minutes ago, jayboy said:

I'm not sure that comparing required income for LTR wealthy pensioners with Thai levels is relevant.As for corporate expats working here I can assure you that the level is often far above (2 or 3 times or much more) Baht 225,000 per month especially when benefits in kind (often taxable) are taken into account.

 

The point of the LTR scheme is to attract high potential foreigners who would like to relocate to Thailand long-term, the purpose being to help boost economic development and stimulate overseas investment in the country.The other categories of the LTR scheme are consistent with this aim but not the "wealthy pensioner" category.I think its great that some pensioners are able to take advantage of this scheme but the BOI rationale remains obscure.

One thing for sure is the LTR Pensioner category has been the most popular LTR category so far...with the LTR Work from Thailand category coming in second.

 

[Celsius]

6 hours ago, MPoll said:

I always find it amazing the number of people that think Thailand is some sort of hardship post for people at the lower end of the income spectrum who seemingly have nowhere else to go.

Because it is. This can be easily proven just looking at facebook ads for Thailand "expats". People selling garbage from their condos such as stained mattresses and broken furniture which back home you would toss it up on the curb hoping garbage truck would pick it up if you are lucky.

 

The one that are supposedly "rich" always have to look over their shoulder in the land of the poor.

 

 

[nglodnig]

6 hours ago, JimGant said:

Why would someone who dislikes Thailand make 592 posts in a Thailand related forum.......? Sounds like your poverty has created a case of sour grapes.

And you, like all the others have replied have ignored my question and focussed on my "aside" in brackets - WHAT GOOD is the LTR that justifies the cost? For a retiree (not talking about under-fifty)

 

And my financial situtation is none of your business

Edited July 18, 2023 by nglodnig

[K2938]

9 hours ago, MPoll said:

There have been well over 3000 LTR’s approved.

Applied, not approved.  There is a reason that the number of approved LTR visas is not disclosed

Edited July 18, 2023 by K2938

[anrcaccount]

4 hours ago, jayboy said:

 

The point of the LTR scheme is to attract high potential foreigners who would like to relocate to Thailand long-term, the purpose being to help boost economic development and stimulate overseas investment in the country.The other categories of the LTR scheme are consistent with this aim but not the "wealthy pensioner" category.I think its great that some pensioners are able to take advantage of this scheme but the BOI rationale remains obscure.

Spot on.

 

With respect to ThailandRyan Pib etc, who I can completely see why this visa is great for them, the overall scheme has been a flop from the BOIs perspective. 

 

Attracting "wealthy pensioners" who already resided in Thailand, to change their visa category, to get a smoother admin ride,  was not the goal of the BOI in the LTR program.

 

The number of approved applications overall is minuscule after nearly a year in operation, with many of these being the above type.

 

The program needs a serious overhaul, if it is to attract "new" foreigners who actually wish to relocate. 

 

 

[K2938]

9 minutes ago, anrcaccount said:

Spot on.

 

With respect to ThailandRyan Pib etc, who I can completely see why this visa is great for them, the overall scheme has been a flop from the BOIs perspective. 

 

Attracting "wealthy pensioners" who already resided in Thailand, to change their visa category, to get a smoother admin ride,  was not the goal of the BOI in the LTR program.

 

The number of approved applications overall is minuscule after nearly a year in operation, with many of these being the above type.

 

The program needs a serious overhaul, if it is to attract "new" foreigners who actually wish to relocate. 

True, but the BOI appears to have no interest in this.  On the contrary, various LTR requirements were actually made more restrictive over time rather than the opposite.

Edited July 18, 2023 by K2938

[K2938]

5 hours ago, Pib said:

I expect these U.S. retirement income amounts are similar to other western countries like in Europe.

As the U.S. has a much higher GDP per capita than most European countries, Europe is probably much lower on average

[tai4de2]

WGC application submitted 5 July, status changed to “qualifications endorsed” on 19 July.

 

It doesn’t appear that they’re asking for any additional documents beyond the updated passport (no entires since originally submitted, so that’s an easy one anyway). Once I do this how long should I expect before status changes again? It feels like this pace is too good to be true so far. 
 

Seems like the eVisa route would be considerably less hassle than in-person. Would be at Los Angeles consulate. 

 

I have a non-O. Am I correct that going the eVisa route for LTR issuance means there’s no need for me to take explicit steps to cancel of my existing visa?

[tai4de2]

OK, silly question: does the “Digital Work Permit” associated with an LTR visa require a specific job? Or can an LTR visa holder get one of these work permits independently of any job and be covered generally for any and all “work” activities?

[tai4de2]

Another question:

 

What happens if I apply for my LTR via eVisa, and it is not issued yet when I next enter Thailand on my existing non-O? My next trip is actually short; I'll only be in Thailand for 2 weeks.

 

Does my being in Thailand cause the pending eVisa application to be rejected? Or does the eVisa get issued and then I have to do something at immigration to get everything in order (because I will have then entered on a visa that is canceled when the LTR eVisa gets issued)? Would kinda defeat the purpose of having gone the eVisa route...

 

In this scenario it's also possible that I will have left Thailand before the eVisa application is even processed at all.

 

Another choice is to simply wait to apply for the eVisa until I have left Thailand. But the timelines are such that I'm worried about the "60 days since issuance of the qualification endorsement letter" deadline.

 

Advice please? Thank you all in advance.

Edited July 19, 2023 by tai4de2

[tai4de2]

I thought I'd catalog what I submitted for my WGC application. It seems to have worked because I was endorsed with no additional documents required... so maybe this will help someone else.

 

Thailand investment: my (Thai) spouse and I own several condos in Thailand. Some are in my name only, and some are jointly owned. On the application, I declared a total valuation number consisting of 100% for the ones in my own name, plus 50% for the ones held jointly. I submitted scans of the exact documents they asked for -- the contract and the deed, for each condo. These were all purchased within the past few years, which possibly makes the purchase price very accurate as a "value" for purposes of the application. The total value I declared was only just over $500K, so this could possibly have been a problem.

 

Income: I submitted scans of 2021 and 2022 W2s and 1040s. My spouse and I file jointly, and I have no idea whether they used my W2s to determine what percentage of our total income to attribute to me vs. my spouse. I also have no idea whether they considered only the wages from gainful employment, or also included the investment income. It may be of possible interest to some folks here that I had $0 income during 2023 at the time of submitting my application, so the business about using averages from the past 2 years etc. is accurate.

 

Assets: I submitted

* A scan of the deed to my house in the USA, which shows standard language of "$10 plus valuable consideration" -- and nothing else about value or purchase price, which is good because it was decades ago and the value today bears little resemblance to the original purchase price! Plus a screen shot from my county's tax records web site, showing me and spouse as current owners, and current assessed property tax valuation. I entered 50% of that number on the application form.

* A current bank statement, with account numbers redacted. Accounts are in my name only.

* A recent brokerage account statement, with account numbers redacted. Accounts are in my name only.

 

Insurance: I submitted 12 months of bank statements showing >$100K in the same account. I redacted all account numbers on all the statements.

 

One small thing I learned during the process, that I did not know before: the Preview app on the Mac has a specific redaction annotation tool for pdfs. This makes redacting sections of documents trivial. (A colored square annotation over part of a pdf can be undone and thus isn't strong enough.)

 

 

[tai4de2]

Just received final approval for my WGC visa.

 

It's 20-odd days until I expect to enter Thailand again. I am unsure whether I should do the eVisa application now or after that (short) trip is completed and I leave Thailand in late August.

[Pib]

@tai4de2

 

Congrats!   Yeap...it now seems when a person has all the required documentation lined-up like ducks the approval process is much faster than the initial 4 to 6 months of the LTR program.  From looking at your earlier posts you submitted your application on 6 July...and today/20 July you got the endorsement/approval....14 days---fast!   And @JimGant very recently got his LTR Pensioner endorsed after around 16 days which included a day or two of delay due to an additional doc request.  Yeap....seems BoI is much faster now when a applicant's ducks are all lined up.

 

Regarding your question as to where to have the LTR issued via the e-visa system OR having it done at BoI in you very near term trip to Thailand, I would recommend you play it safe and ask BoI the question per the LTR Visa Issuance Guidance on the BoI LTR website....see weblink at bottom and partial quote.

 

 I would think after you explain your situation of wanting to have the LTR issued in Thailand since you will arrive in a few weeks, the evisa system would be more expensive and may not issue the LTR in time for travel, and how you can provide all required docs such as your latest passport copy with all stamp "with the exception of the entry stamp" to occur when arriving that BoI would say no problem...you can indeed have the LTR issued at BoI and you can provide the updated entry stamp on your appointment day.  But that's just my opinion....confirm with BoI.

 

I would send your request directly to their email address as shown at the bottom of the webpage AND also submit the same request via their inquiry form.   LTR has been answering questions very quickly lately...within hours to a business day.   Be sure to include your LTR application number so they can easily look you up in their system.

 

https://ltr.boi.go.th/page/visa-issuance-info.html

 

Edited July 20, 2023 by Pib