8 minutes ago, Sparktrader said:

Locked down hospitals and aged care. Let others live their lives.

 

Other things kill far more people.

 

Total mismanagement.

In the delta wave they had no choice but to lock some hospitals in Bangkok because they were full, so doctors were forced to treat patients outside waiting on stretchers. Patients were forced to die at home with rescue workers delivering oxygen to them where they could

42 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

Which begs the question, how do anti-vaxxers know they are right?

It shouldn't be taken that literally. 

 

It's a quote I find quite fitting for people blinded by conceit and self-importance.

 

A touch of humility would be very welcome.

COVID vaccines have saved tens of millions of lives around the world, people who otherwise would have died from COVID beyond the 6.4 million official COVID deaths already recorded worldwide (though multiple studies have found the real COVID deaths number is likely two to three times higher at this point). The following study only tracks the numbers of lives saved during the first year that COVID vaccines were in use up through early Dec. 2021:

COVID-19 vaccines saved an estimated 20 million lives in 1 year

Jun 24, 2022

 

"COVID vaccines reduced the potential global death toll during the pandemic by almost two-thirds in their first year, saving an estimated 19.8 million lives, according to a mathematical modeling study yesterday in The Lancet Infectious Diseases.

 

An additional 600,000 lives could have been spared if a World Health Organization (WHO) goal of vaccinating 40% of the population of every country by the end of 2021 had been met, the authors of the study say.

...

The scientists estimated that 18.1 million deaths would have occurred during the study period without vaccination. Of those, the model estimated that vaccination prevented 14.4 million deaths, or 79%. When they accounted for under-reporting, however, they found that COVID vaccination prevented an estimated 19.8 million deaths out of a total of 31.4 million potential deaths that would have occurred without vaccination—a reduction of 63%."

 

(more)

 

https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2022/06/covid-19-vaccines-saved-estimated-20-million-lives-1-year

 

https://www.eurekalert.org/news-releases/956782

 

6 minutes ago, rattlesnake said:

It shouldn't be taken that literally. 

 

It's a quote I find quite fitting for people blinded by conceit and self-importance.

 

A touch of humility would be very welcome.

I see, picking and choosing as you do with COVID data.

There's a lot of things I don't know. Like how to fly an aeroplane, or perform brain surgery. A shame when quite a few posters on ASEAN could obviously benefit.

I don't see any reason to become Uriah Heep because a poster is suddenly overburdened with

sanctimony.

1 hour ago, Lacessit said:

Hindsight is always 20:20. Tell us what you would have done.

I was going to try to answer your question,   After reading your next post I now see (disappointed so) that you really were not looking for an answer.    You are the smart one.   

Personally i use hindsight to help me in my quest to make better decisions going forward .  One of the first lessons I learned very early in life... which helped me make the right decision to WAIT when this crazy fear mongering led "you all need to get this shot" narrative pervaded all the media , and then anyone opposing it was called a quack if not worse................................... is that when someone tells me  "we are doing this to you for your own good"  ......   I know that they are lying !

 

especially if they will not let you hear what others have to say..

 

 

2 minutes ago, rumak said:

I was going to try to answer your question,   After reading your next post I now see (disappointed so) that you really were not looking for an answer.    You are the smart one.   

Personally i use hindsight to help me in my quest to make better decisions going forward .  One of the first lessons I leanrned very early in life... which helped me make the right decision to WAIT when this crazy fear mongering led "you all need to get this shot" narrative pervaded all the media , and then anyone opposing it was called a quack if not worse................................... is that when someone tells me  "we are doing this to you for your own good"  ......   I know that they are lying !

 

 

Actually, the nom de plume you have adopted makes the claim you are smart.

 

So you would have waited. Until you get tested for antibodies, you won't know if you have dodged a bullet, or are still waiting for it to arrive.

 

I had myself tested for antibodies 3 weeks after my first jab. While the result was not high, it gave me confidence if I did get COVID, I would cope with it comfortably. And I did.

 

I'd suggest if the world had waited, based on your advice, the butcher's bill of deaths and long-term impairment would have been far higher. Do you believe in natural selection in a pandemic? That's pretty cold.

 

We are all shaped by our life experiences. You evidently developed an abiding distrust of authority very early on. While I share some of that distrust, I think I am more selective in applying it.

 

8 minutes ago, rumak said:

Isn't there some rule about how many times someone can keep posting the same misinformation ?

"scientists estimated"     hahahahahha       try looking at the Vaers report and see the real life data

This one?

 

Fact check: Reports of adverse events due to COVID-19 vaccines are unverified

 

VAERS reports unverified As USA TODAY has previously reported, reports in the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System, commonly known as VAERS, are not proof of widespread serious side effects or death due to the COVID-19 vaccines.

 

VAERS reports are unverified, and the CDC says on its website that the database "is not designed to determine if a vaccine caused or contributed to an adverse event." If public health officials detect a reporting pattern, they conduct follow-up studies to determine whether a vaccine was to blame.

 

"I can get a COVID vaccine and my dog gets hit by a car – I can make that report and it will show up in the database," Salmon said. "It does not mean that my getting a COVID vaccine caused my dog to get hit by a car."

 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2022/01/05/fact-check-1-million-covid-19-vaccine-adverse-events-unverified/9103381002/

Boy,  sure glad he got those shots.   Who knows what could have happened otherwise   ????.  But shame on him for not getting that fifth shot .      We all must keep up ,  no exceptions.....

 

 

1 hour ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

COVID vaccines have saved tens of millions of lives around the world, people who otherwise would have died from COVID beyond the 6.4 million official COVID deaths already recorded worldwide (though multiple studies have found the real COVID deaths number is likely two to three times higher at this point). The following study only tracks the numbers of lives saved during the first year that COVID vaccines were in use up through early Dec. 2021:

COVID-19 vaccines saved an estimated 20 million lives in 1 year

Jun 24, 2022

 

"COVID vaccines reduced the potential global death toll during the pandemic by almost two-thirds in their first year, saving an estimated 19.8 million lives, according to a mathematical modeling study yesterday in The Lancet Infectious Diseases.

 

An additional 600,000 lives could have been spared if a World Health Organization (WHO) goal of vaccinating 40% of the population of every country by the end of 2021 had been met, the authors of the study say.

...

The scientists estimated that 18.1 million deaths would have occurred during the study period without vaccination. Of those, the model estimated that vaccination prevented 14.4 million deaths, or 79%. When they accounted for under-reporting, however, they found that COVID vaccination prevented an estimated 19.8 million deaths out of a total of 31.4 million potential deaths that would have occurred without vaccination—a reduction of 63%."

 

(more)

 

https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2022/06/covid-19-vaccines-saved-estimated-20-million-lives-1-year

 

https://www.eurekalert.org/news-releases/956782

 

You believe it? Anyone can spruce up a model to say anything.

 

Given most deaths were 70yo plus with underlying conditions how many lives did they save and for how long?

 

How many people under 50yo with no vaccine and no underlying conditions died?

 

 

An off-topic post and a trolling post have been removed.

 

33 minutes ago, rumak said:

Isn't there some rule about how many times someone can keep posting the same misinformation ?

"scientists estimated"     hahahahahha       try looking at the Vaers report and see the real life data

1 estimates are usually wrong

2 if you are 85yo and a vaccine saves your life for 18 months does that count the same as a 55yo who lives for another 20 years?

34 minutes ago, rumak said:

Isn't there some rule about how many times someone can keep posting the same misinformation ?

"scientists estimated"     hahahahahha       try looking at the Vaers report and see the real life data

The VAERS report is data collected from anywhere, and not assessed for causation. A drover's dog could report being off its tucker after a rabies shot, and it would be accepted into the database.

 

I quote:

 

"The report of an adverse event to VAERS is not documentation that a vaccine caused the event". and

 

"VAERS is a passive reporting system, meaning that reports about adverse events are not automatically collected, but require a report to be filed to VAERS. VAERS reports can be submitted voluntarily by anyone, including healthcare providers, patients, or family members. Reports vary in quality and completeness. They often lack details and sometimes can have information that contains errors."

 

You obviously believe the data is significant, despite the limitations cited by VAERS itself.

 

https://vaers.hhs.gov/data/dataguide.html

 

You can't have it both ways, the .gov suffix says it is government funded, and you've already posted your distrust of authority.

 

57 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

This one?

 

Fact check: Reports of adverse events due to COVID-19 vaccines are unverified

 

VAERS reports unverified As USA TODAY has previously reported, reports in the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System, commonly known as VAERS, are not proof of widespread serious side effects or death due to the COVID-19 vaccines.

 

VAERS reports are unverified, and the CDC says on its website that the database "is not designed to determine if a vaccine caused or contributed to an adverse event." If public health officials detect a reporting pattern, they conduct follow-up studies to determine whether a vaccine was to blame.

 

"I can get a COVID vaccine and my dog gets hit by a car – I can make that report and it will show up in the database," Salmon said. "It does not mean that my getting a COVID vaccine caused my dog to get hit by a car."

 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2022/01/05/fact-check-1-million-covid-19-vaccine-adverse-events-unverified/9103381002/

"I can get a COVID vaccine and my dog gets hit by a car – I can make that report and it will show up in the database," Salmon said. "It does not mean that my getting a COVID vaccine caused my dog to get hit by a car."

 

Right, and that is a typical VAERS entry of course. Ridiculous!

10 minutes ago, rattlesnake said:

"I can get a COVID vaccine and my dog gets hit by a car – I can make that report and it will show up in the database," Salmon said. "It does not mean that my getting a COVID vaccine caused my dog to get hit by a car."

 

Right, and that is a typical VAERS entry of course. Ridiculous!

It's called a reductio ad absurdum,  perhaps you are unfamiliar with that line of argument. The Romans were using it more than 2000 years ago to demonstrate the falsity of a proposition, try to keep up.

3 minutes ago, rattlesnake said:

"I can get a COVID vaccine and my dog gets hit by a car – I can make that report and it will show up in the database," Salmon said. "It does not mean that my getting a COVID vaccine caused my dog to get hit by a car."

 

Right, and that is a typical VAERS entry of course. Ridiculous!

Yep agreed, shows just how unreliable the data can be but then it does say so itself if people bothered to actually read it.

 

VAERS allows anyone to submit a report on any possible reaction after the vaccine, and has clear disclaimers that reports may “contain information that is incomplete, inaccurate, coincidental, or unverifiable.”

https://apnews.com/article/fact-checking-142387100461

 

The report of an adverse event to VAERS is not documentation that a vaccine caused the event.

https://vaers.hhs.gov/data/dataguide.html

A post making a claim not supported by its own weblinked source has been removed.

 

1 hour ago, Lacessit said:

It's called a reductio ad absurdum,  perhaps you are unfamiliar with that line of argument. The Romans were using it more than 2000 years ago to demonstrate the falsity of a proposition, try to keep up.

 

It's a way of deriding those who raise valid concerns about the alarming explosion of VAERS reports (most of which are about very serious events). Again, absolutely ridiculous.

2 hours ago, Sparktrader said:

Other things kill far more people.

 

Not many... COVID is pretty much near the top of the list in terms of causes of death these past couple years. Take the U.S. for example:

 

COVID-19 third leading cause of death in 2020, 2021

July 05, 2022

 

In the first 20 months of the COVID-19 pandemic, the disease accounted for one in eight deaths and was the third leading cause of death in the United States, according to a study published in JAMA Internal Medicine.

...

Overall, the leading causes of death during this time frame was heart disease (20.1%), followed by cancer (17.5%), COVID-19 (12.2%), accidents (6.2%) and stroke (4.7%).

 

Age-specific data differed in the first and second years of the pandemic. In 2020, COVID-19 was the fourth leading cause of death for those aged 45 to 54 years and the fifth leading cause for those aged 35 to 44 years, but it jumped to the first and second leading causes of death in these age groups in 2021.

 

(more)

 

https://www.healio.com/news/primary-care/20220705/covid19-third-leading-cause-of-death-in-2020-2021

 

 

 

 

31 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Yep agreed, shows just how unreliable the data can be but then it does say so itself if people bothered to actually read it.

 

VAERS allows anyone to submit a report on any possible reaction after the vaccine, and has clear disclaimers that reports may “contain information that is incomplete, inaccurate, coincidental, or unverifiable.”

https://apnews.com/article/fact-checking-142387100461

 

The report of an adverse event to VAERS is not documentation that a vaccine caused the event.

https://vaers.hhs.gov/data/dataguide.html

Nor is it documentation that the vaccine did not cause the event. The main issue with the VAERS system is underreporting, I fully covered that point earlier in this thread.

Just now, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

Not many... COVID is pretty much near the top of the list in terms of causes of death these past couple years. Take the U.S. for example:

 

COVID-19 third leading cause of death in 2020, 2021

July 05, 2022

 

In the first 20 months of the COVID-19 pandemic, the disease accounted for one in eight deaths and was the third leading cause of death in the United States, according to a study published in JAMA Internal Medicine.

...

Overall, the leading causes of death during this time frame was heart disease (20.1%), followed by cancer (17.5%), COVID-19 (12.2%), accidents (6.2%) and stroke (4.7%).

 

Age-specific data differed in the first and second years of the pandemic. In 2020, COVID-19 was the fourth leading cause of death for those aged 45 to 54 years and the fifth leading cause for those aged 35 to 44 years, but it jumped to the first and second leading causes of death in these age groups in 2021.

 

(more)

 

https://www.healio.com/news/primary-care/20220705/covid19-third-leading-cause-of-death-in-2020-2021

 

 

 

 

Thats if you believe it

 

If somebody has a heart condition gets covid and dies what killed them?

 

Covid according to the stats

 

Yet without the heart condition they live

 

So stats are questionable at best

2 minutes ago, rattlesnake said:

Nor is it documentation that the vaccine did not cause the event. The main issue with the VAERS system is underreporting, I fuilly covered that point earlier in this thread.

We keep agreeing the "report of an adverse event to VAERS is not documentation that a vaccine caused the event."

 

Claims made from articles taking it out of context are misleading at best.

4 minutes ago, rattlesnake said:

Nor is it documentation that the vaccine did not cause the event. The main issue with the VAERS system is underreporting, I fuilly covered that point earlier in this thread.

Under-reporting is most probably the  result of the adverse event being too insignificant to be considered worthwhile. It's a pretty good bet anything really significant, such as a seizure or death, would be there front and centre.

The VAERS system is a reporting system, not a diagnostic system. I'd suggest other sources for the crusade, although it may be difficult to find anything with peer-reviewed credibility.

1 hour ago, Sparktrader said:

Given most deaths were 70yo plus with underlying conditions how many lives did they save and for how long?

In the U.S., about 25% of the cumulative COVID deaths have been in people age 64 and younger, according to the CDC.

 

That includes 18% of all COVID deaths being age 50-64 (160,000+) and about 4% age 40 to 49 (36,000+), along with more than 1,700 under the age of 18.

 

 

Source link

 

 

12 minutes ago, Sparktrader said:

So stats are questionable at best

No... you just don't want to believe them, or anything else that goes against your generally unsubstantiated and unsupported claims.

 

2 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

In the U.S., about 25% of the cumulative COVID deaths have been in people age 64 and younger, according to the CDC.

 

That includes 18% of all COVID deaths being age 50-64 (160,000+) and about 4% age 40 to 49 (36,000+), along with more than 1,700 under the age of 18.

 

 

Source link

 

 

How many had underlying conditions?

1 minute ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

No... you just don't want to believe them.

 

No i look at details not headlines. 

 

84yo heart problem gets covid and dies. They were going to die anyway.

Just now, Sparktrader said:

No i look at details not headlines. 

 

84yo heart problem gets covid and dies. They were going to die anyway.

The infants and children who've died from COVID were going to "die anyway" too (to use your phrase)... just not likely for many years / decades into the future had it not been for COVID.

 

 

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/coronavirus-age-sex-demographics/

Above chart shows 37.5x more likely to die if underlying conditions all ages

 

 

New york data

45 minutes ago, Sparktrader said:

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/coronavirus-age-sex-demographics/

 You're citing months old stats from the New York City health department... not the U.S. national or any other larger entity.

 

I provided you the U.S. total COVID deaths breakdown by age group above, current for the whole U.S. as of August -- 1,700+ COVID deaths in the U.S. among those under age 18.

 

Also, all kinds of people have various kinds of underlying conditions. But in the U.S., the COVID death stats are based on what CAUSED the death, not what other misc conditions the person may also have had at the time they died.