Takeaways from the court hearing on releasing more documents from the Mar-a-Lago search

[heybruce]

57 minutes ago, riclag said:

The word steal is the  lefts term imop When boxes have been declassified,  packed away , transported and sent by a govt agency to mara largo ,to be put under lock  only to be seen by investigators months prior, put under more locks at the request of another govt agency while lawyers and govt agencies negotiated  the release . Thats not stealing !

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/reported-trump-fbi-informant-irrelevant-source-close-former-president-says

For the left ,when it comes to Trump he’s  never deserving of the constitutional privileges of the office ! Imop

 

Let me make this very simple for you:

 

No one disputes that the documents are and always have been government property.

 

No one disputes that Trump took them when he left the White House.

 

No one disputes that Trump did not return the documents when asked to and denied having them.

 

No one disputes that Trump had the documents which were found on his property after a legally authorized search.

 

That's stealing, plain and simple.

[Phoenix Rising]

17 minutes ago, riclag said:

Lol For 4 years when he was in office his detractors were constantly badgering him and his rights as the office holder

Understand

That's bull of course but even if it weren't in what way would that be pertinent to him stealing secret documents?

[nauseus]

7 hours ago, LosLobo said:

You are being deceived!

 

Do you have any evidence that Trump really wants everything out in the open?

 

If so, Trump and his lawyers would have sued in court to have the un-redacted affidavit released. 

 

He really only wants his rhetoric to drive the grift. 

 

Release of the un-redacted affidavit to the public will end that. 

 

He has never ever wanted anything out in the open and released to the public.

 

His affair with Stormy, his private conversations with Putin, his taxes, his deposition last week where he pleaded the Fifth more than 400 times. etc etc

 

 

 

Do you have any evidence that Trump doesn't want everything out in the open?

[ozimoron]

Just now, nauseus said:

  15 hours ago, habanero said:

Why do you assume it has to do with national security. Because the media says so? Why does Trump want the affidavits release un-redacted? Maybe because there is another hoax in the works? If Trump had anything to hide he would not want everything out in the open. It is the government that is trying to hide things. 

You have been deceived!

 

Do you have any evidence that Trump doesn't want everything out in the open?

Yeah, despite saying out loud for a week that he wanted the FBI to release the warrant he didn't do so himself. Nothing was stopping him. Nothing.

[nauseus]

4 hours ago, placeholder said:

Please. Trump blatantly violated the very law that he signed into law about possession of documents The govt negotiated with his people for over a year to get them back. They got some back in June. His lawyer then certified that all had been returned. Somehow the govt found out that this was not the case.  At that point, what would a reasonable person expect the government to do? Just let Trump keep them? Why has no other President had a problem obey the predecessor to the current law. Trump's V.P. managed to scrupulously obey the law that Trump violated. Do you believe that there's an unwritten law that ex-Presidents are immune from criminal investigations? 

I do agree with you that Trump was singled out for special treatment. What other citizen in such a case would be allowed to negotiate with the government for over a year?

Who really knows? Even now.

[ballpoint]

It's all too obvious that some on here don't even know the meaning of the term "declassified documents" that they are bandying about, so let's give it a go:

  

If you follow all the public figures who have spoken out on this - and I'm referring to the many who are au fait with the law, not the few whose lips are au fait with Trump's backside - they all have one thing in common; these documents definitely weren't legally declassified.  But, if you're going to stick with the tenuous story that Trump did somehow declassify these documents, whether just by looking at them, or touching them, or chanting magic words while holding a glowing orb, (no, scratch that one, that's what he does with weirdo Saudi kings), "declassified" means exactly that. They are no longer classified and are therefore available for perusal.  They are not to be secreted away in a tacky little beach hut, in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying 'Beware of the Leopard”, they need to be somewhere where anyone with the right to know has access to them.  Your assertion that he declassified them matters not one iota when it comes to the question of his stealing them.  He stole them.  No doubt about it.

 

(It also doesn't help that Trump's public hired fan boys are talking to cross purposes.  Either the documents were declassified, so there was no reason to store, sorry, preserve, them in a secure, classified manner, or they were not, so he doubly certainly shouldn't have had them, and they are doubly certainly lying through  their teeth.  You can tell a lot about the intelligence of someone by just how they try to fool you - 'that would certainly fool me, so it should fool everyone').

 

 

[LosLobo]

11 minutes ago, nauseus said:

 

 

Do you have any evidence that Trump doesn't want everything out in the open?

But the poster has the burden of proof, I merely disputed his claim.

 

"When two parties are in a discussion and one makes a claim that the other disputes, the one who makes the claim typically has a burden of proof to justify or substantiate that claim".

" Hitchens's razor, which declares that "what may be asserted without evidence, may be dismissed without evidence." 

 

Burden of proof (philosophy) - Wikipedia

[nauseus]

51 minutes ago, heybruce said:

Let me make this very simple for you:

 

No one disputes that the documents are and always have been government property.

 

No one disputes that Trump took them when he left the White House.

 

No one disputes that Trump did not return the documents when asked to and denied having them.

 

No one disputes that Trump had the documents which were found on his property after a legally authorized search.

 

That's stealing, plain and simple.

Too simple - no one really knows anything.

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, nauseus said:

Kids being taught rubbish - even more shocking.

I was taught religious instruction at school until the "teacher" banned me. We don't want religious instruction back.

[heybruce]

7 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Too simple - no one really knows anything.

Every simple sentence I wrote leading to the conclusion that the documents were stolen began with "Nobody disputes..."

 

Has anyone disputed any of those statements?  Do you dispute that the documents are government property, that Trump took them, that Trump didn't return them after months of negotiations and even lied, through his lawyer, about having them?

[LosLobo]

53 minutes ago, riclag said:

Lol For 4 years when he was in office his detractors were constantly badgering him and his  constitutional rights afforded to him as the office holder

Understand

What constitutional rights was he badgered over?

 

Although, I agree he was badgered for colluding with the Russians over the 2016 elections, for trying to collude with Ukraine over the 2020 elections and withholding their military aid and trying to lead an insurrection and a coup in 2021, and rightly so. But none of those were within his constitutional rights as a president. 

[nauseus]

30 minutes ago, heybruce said:

Every simple sentence I wrote leading to the conclusion that the documents were stolen began with "Nobody disputes..."

 

Has anyone disputed any of those statements?  Do you dispute that the documents are government property, that Trump took them, that Trump didn't return them after months of negotiations and even lied, through his lawyer, about having them?

No one really knows anything is what I said.

[heybruce]

21 minutes ago, nauseus said:

No one really knows anything is what I said.

I seem to have touched a nerve.

 

We do know that the documents are government property, we do know that Trump took them, we do know that he failed to return them when requested....

 

We know the basics, and the basics point to theft of government property.

[LosLobo]

29 minutes ago, nauseus said:

No one really knows anything is what I said.

No-one needs to know or see everything. Sometimes evidence can be intangible.

 

Evidence can be based on the expert opinion of a respected, trusted, and learned professional who has knowledge in a specialist field.

 

In this case the expert is the judge who issued the warrant based on his expert opinion of the evidence put forward in the affidavit.

 

By the virtue of his issuance of the warrant this would be deemed in any court of law that this is evidence enough and for most who believe in the rule of law this is sufficient.

[candide]

1 hour ago, ballpoint said:

It's all too obvious that some on here don't even know the meaning of the term "declassified documents" that they are bandying about, so let's give it a go:

  

If you follow all the public figures who have spoken out on this - and I'm referring to the many who are au fait with the law, not the few whose lips are au fait with Trump's backside - they all have one thing in common; these documents definitely weren't legally declassified.  But, if you're going to stick with the tenuous story that Trump did somehow declassify these documents, whether just by looking at them, or touching them, or chanting magic words while holding a glowing orb, (no, scratch that one, that's what he does with weirdo Saudi kings), "declassified" means exactly that. They are no longer classified and are therefore available for perusal.  They are not to be secreted away in a tacky little beach hut, in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying 'Beware of the Leopard”, they need to be somewhere where anyone with the right to know has access to them.  Your assertion that he declassified them matters not one iota when it comes to the question of his stealing them.  He stole them.  No doubt about it.

 

(It also doesn't help that Trump's public hired fan boys are talking to cross purposes.  Either the documents were declassified, so there was no reason to store, sorry, preserve, them in a secure, classified manner, or they were not, so he doubly certainly shouldn't have had them, and they are doubly certainly lying through  their teeth.  You can tell a lot about the intelligence of someone by just how they try to fool you - 'that would certainly fool me, so it should fool everyone').

 

 

Right, the MAGA fans have been completely incoherent: ????

- the FBI planted evidence, but it was not classified, then it was a napkin, etc... Completely incoherent! "If" the FBI would have planted something, it would make sure it is compromising

- the documents were not classified, but Trump was keeping them in a safe place. It is also completely incoherent as you mention. If de-classified, no need to keep them safe and secret,

- what follows next? 

[EVENKEEL]

3 hours ago, heybruce said:

Garland wanted the FBI to help protect school officials who were being threatened over the schools curriculum?  Shocking!  ????

Oh the horror of parents asking questions about their child's education. 

[Bkk Brian]

17 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

Oh the horror of parents asking questions about their child's education. 

You missed the links posted earlier by @candide then, here's one for you:

 

School boards are asking for federal help as they face threats and violence

Mobs are yelling obscenities and throwing objects. In one district, a protester brandished a flagpole against a school board official. Other cases have included a protester yelling a Nazi salute, arrests for aggravated battery and disorderly conduct, and numerous death threats against public officials.

[EVENKEEL]

9 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

You missed the links posted earlier by @candide then, here's one for you:

 

School boards are asking for federal help as they face threats and violence

Mobs are yelling obscenities and throwing objects. In one district, a protester brandished a flagpole against a school board official. Other cases have included a protester yelling a Nazi salute, arrests for aggravated battery and disorderly conduct, and numerous death threats against public officials.

Upset parents, again the horror. By all means callin the FBI, are you serious. A ridiculous response by the schools. 

[placeholder]

3 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

Upset parents, again the horror. By all means callin the FBI, are you serious. A ridiculous response by the schools. 

Because being a parent means you're incapable of committing violence?

 

[billd766]

4 hours ago, ullman said:

AG Garland Weaponizes FBI Against Parents Protesting Critical Race Theory, Mask Mandates

Garland mentions threats, but does not mention anything specific in the press release.

 

 

https://legalinsurrection.com/2021/10/ag-garland-weaponizes-fbi-against-parents-protesting-critical-race-theory/

 

Taking note of a supposed "spike" in harassment and intimidating behavior directed at public school officials, Attorney General Merrick Garland has instructed the FBI to be on the lookout for angry parents demanding accountability at school board meetings.

On Monday, Garland sent a memo to the federal law enforcement agency directing it to coordinate with the nation's 14,000 school districts. 

https://reason.com/2021/10/06/ag-merrick-garland-fbi-critical-race-theory-parents-schools-domestic-terrorists/

Garlands a huge failure, will be impeached soon after November midterm elections.

Further reading:

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/justice/republicans-point-to-number-of-times-garland-has-politicized-the-justice-department
 

 

And the most laughable thing is that Garland is a Republican, personally appointed by your hero, Donald Trump.

[LosLobo]

6 minutes ago, billd766 said:

And the most laughable thing is that Garland is a Republican, personally appointed by your hero, Donald Trump.

I think you are getting confused with FBI Director Wray.

[CharlieH]

Reported off topic post and responses removed.

[Bkk Brian]

1 hour ago, EVENKEEL said:

Upset parents, again the horror. By all means callin the FBI, are you serious. A ridiculous response by the schools. 

Yea with  arrests for aggravated battery and disorderly conduct, and numerous death threats against public officials. 

 

Or would you rather there was a murder first?

[Chomper Higgot]

1 hour ago, EVENKEEL said:

Upset parents, again the horror. By all means callin the FBI, are you serious. A ridiculous response by the schools. 

It has to be the FBI.

 

The heavily armed, body armored police won’t intervene (for other people’s children).

[ullman]

1 hour ago, billd766 said:

And the most laughable thing is that Garland is a Republican, personally appointed by your hero, Donald Trump.

U sure he appointed Garland? You are confused, wrong, but never mind (yeah, you're being laughed at here), the bigger issue is If Trump is a hero, half of America and even the free world would agree with you, but in your case the unheroic incompetent Biden is a failure, but to each is own to you and all the Biden worshipers.

[candide]

9 minutes ago, ullman said:

U sure he appointed Garland? You are confused, wrong, but never mind (yeah, you're being laughed at here), the bigger issue is If Trump is a hero, half of America and even the free world would agree with you, but in your case the unheroic incompetent Biden is a failure, but to each is own to you and all the Biden worshipers.

In brief, do you agree to parents making deaths threats to and harassing school officials, as your previous post suggests?

[billd766]

2 hours ago, LosLobo said:

I think you are getting confused with FBI Director Wray.

Perhaps I am. It has been a long odd day for me.

[placeholder]

8 hours ago, riclag said:

The word steal is the  lefts term imop When boxes have been declassified,  packed away , transported and sent by a govt agency to mara largo ,to be put under lock  only to be seen by investigators months prior, put under more locks at the request of another govt agency while lawyers and govt agencies negotiated  the release . Thats not stealing !

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/reported-trump-fbi-informant-irrelevant-source-close-former-president-says

For the left ,when it comes to Trump he’s  never deserving of the constitutional privileges of the office ! Imop

 

Even if the documents are judged to have declassified, and that's a big if, that has no relevance to the crimes the warrant refers to. The alleged crimes have to do with illegal possession. No President had problems with the predecessor to this law. You know the one that Trump replaced with a law that made the penalties harsher.  Mike Pence didn't have any problems with this law. Just Trump.

 

The documents were apparently not just put under lock since some were retrieved from elsewhere than the padlocked room.

And the padlocked room is not an officially designated secure area. In fact, Mar y Lago, being a hotel, is inherently not a safe place to store such documents

Videos apparently showed that the document boxes supposedly under lock and key had been moved and possibly accessed

The government requested Trump to put the documents under lock and key to at least provide some protection for them while their return was being negotiated. It was in no way a recognition that Trump had any right to them in the first place.

Exactly what constitutional privileges apply to an ex-President if it turns out he took documents he had no right to possess which is a crime under a law endorsed and signed into law by him? Just to make sure you understand: the issue of classification is irrelevant to the issue of illegal possession.

 

[FritsSikkink]

8 hours ago, riclag said:

The word steal is the  lefts term imop When boxes have been declassified,  packed away , transported and sent by a govt agency to mara largo ,to be put under lock  only to be seen by investigators months prior, put under more locks at the request of another govt agency while lawyers and govt agencies negotiated  the release . Thats not stealing !

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/reported-trump-fbi-informant-irrelevant-source-close-former-president-says

For the left ,when it comes to Trump he’s  never deserving of the constitutional privileges of the office ! Imop

 

I am not left. Documents weren't his to take they belong to the National Archive.

[gamb00ler]

12 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Where is your evidence of this being selective law enforcement?

 

Trump removed TS/SCI documents from the WH to Mar-a-Largo.
He was asked to return them. 

His lawyers filed false statements that all the documents were returned, they were not.

 

Trump is already being given far too much license, if any ordinary private citizen had removed TS/SCI documents relating to national security, they’d be in a basement somewhere having the circumstances of their theft extracted from them. 
 

But what’s the point arguing with a Trump supporter.

 

A lawfully issued search warrant gives rise to outrage.

A lawfully conducted search - more outrage.

 

If/when an indictment is handed down, there’ll be more out rage.

If/when an arrest is made there’ll be more outrage.

If and when there is a trial, there’ll be yet more outrage.

If/when there’s a conviction there’ll be even more outrage.

 

It’s all denial, lies and outrage and the occasional ‘nice country you’ve got there, shame if something happened to it’.

 

I look forward to this progressing through the criminal Justice system, so I can tick off the outrage as it arises,

Under Trump's .....leadership (cough, cough)... the GOP has changed from Grand Old Party to Gruesome Outrage Party