Why is the UK struggling more than other countries?

[RayC]

18 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

I never said anything was above criticism but it needs to be focussed. It is wrong to say the educational system is not meeting the needs of children because one aspect is not. You can criticise the aspect that is not meeting needs but it is hardly right to criticise the whole system because of one area.

My criticism was focused (at vocational training). You can't claim that the system as a whole is working optimally if one component is sub-optimal.

[RayC]

2 hours ago, KhunLA said:

The issue with the UK, it has nothing to offer the rest of the world, and isn't self sufficient, being very dependent on importing so much.

 

Lose lose situation.

 

Not a Brit, but I thought Brexit was the way to go, independence is a beautiful thing, but can be expensive at times.

 

Could save a lot of the annual budget by leaving NATO.  Stop being part of the corporate security forces worldwide.  Keep selling your death toys, as very profitable, but leave the corporate police force to the idiot Yanks.

 

Wasted so much money on the POS carrier and now F-35s.  How's that working out ?

 

NEWS FLASH: nobody wants to invade the UK

I don't agree with much of what you say but it is interesting to hear a view from someone outside of the UK and EU.

[Bluespunk]

1 hour ago, RayC said:

My criticism was focused (at vocational training). You can't claim that the system as a whole is working optimally if one component is sub-optimal.

The poster I responded to criticised education as a whole entity and not a single aspect of it.
 

You quoted that response. 

 

I was not quoting anything you wrote. 

[sandyf]

2 hours ago, Seppius said:

This is why they have the so-called black hole in finances, nothing to do with Brexit

Of course you are perfectly free to disagree with Mr Saunders.

 

There would be no “austerity budget” this week if Brexit had not “permanently damaged” the UK economy, a former Bank of England policy chief says.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-austerity-budget-bank-england-b2224911.html

[Mac Mickmanus]

3 hours ago, Seppius said:

37 billion wasted on Track and trace

9 billion on wasted on PPE that could not be used

4 Billion on PPE that ended up being burnt

70 billion on the poorly run furlough

 

 

That is why the UK is struggling, total incompetence by the government

 

This is why they have the so-called black hole in finances, nothing to do with Brexit

And those numerous huge field hospitals that were built  that were never used 

[Laphroaig27]

On 11/14/2022 at 8:54 AM, ozimoron said:

These two sentences are apparently contradictory. You deny there was a connection but then admit there was a price to be paid to be "free". Free from what, exactly? Free from unrestricted movement which the economy depends upon.

Both positions can be held at once. Not only that they are not necessarily diametrically opposed to one another. Not are they mutually exclusive. It's not necessarily a fine point either. YOU find them at odds. 

Edited November 15, 2022 by Laphroaig27

[superal]

6 hours ago, johnnybangkok said:

You continue to demonstrate your lack of understanding on this matter, now with simple arithmatic.

The UK's population may well be 67 million but obvioulsy that includes children, OAP's, the sick and the 'can't be bothered working'. The actual number of the WORKING polulation is approx. 75% i.e. 50 million. so 3.5% of this number is approx 1.7 million.

Your stats are correct but I want to add another fact  concerning immigration which is having a significant effect on the 1 . 9 million unemployed figures

          Muslims now are approximately 6% + of the UK population and forecasts state they will be over 17% by 2050 . Fact , only 1 in 5 of employable Muslims is in full time employment . That must have some effect on the benefit system and economy . Figures from the ONS . The UK needs skilled immigrants but is becoming a safe haven for easy riders . At the same time there is a brain drain in the UK with over 300,000 leaving / emigrating and over 500,000 coming into the UK year on year . No wonder that the UK is going down the pan . 

[Mac Mickmanus]

13 minutes ago, superal said:

At the same time there is a brain drain in the UK with over 300,000 leaving / emigrating and over 500,000 coming into the UK year on year . No wonder that the UK is going down the pan . 

That also includes people who retire and move abroad .

Did you move abroad and left the UK and are now complaining that Brits are moving abroad and leaving the UK?

[dunroaming]

14 hours ago, nauseus said:

Try harder, there are ,millions of them.

Well, there are certainly millions who are still in denial, refusing to admit they were sold a pup!   Many are now saying "well we are stuck with it now, so we just have to make the best of it".  Pathetic and defeatist response. 

[bert bloggs]

We left and came to Thailand when the town we lived in was taken over by muslims,drugs  stabbings ,constant wailing from the temples,and the police afraid to do anything for fear of being called racist

[Mac Mickmanus]

2 minutes ago, bert bloggs said:

We left and came to Thailand when the town we lived in was taken over by muslims,drugs  stabbings ,constant wailing from the temples,and the police afraid to do anything for fear of being called racist

Why didn't you move to another location in the U.K ?

[dunroaming]

15 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Now here's a radical idea. Institute policies ( and an education system that actually educates people ) so that British people fill those job vacancies.

Allowing young people to rot on the dole and bringing in overseas workers is a lazy solution and is not going to end well.

Meanwhile the NHS is overwhelmed because they lost the vast majority of doctors and nurses through Brexit.  There is consequently a massive recruitment campaign to bring in nurses and doctors from Africa.  Farmers are desperate and crops are dying in the fields because they don't have enough pickers. The list is endless.

 

But let's not forget that it is the Brexit lies that are now being exposed and yet we still have the same morons running the country. 

 

But you make a valid point that the education system is badly lacking thanks to the continual cuts to the education budgets.  And now we are waiting to hear on Thursday that there are going to be more cuts to services. 

[Mac Mickmanus]

12 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

Meanwhile the NHS is overwhelmed because they lost the vast majority of doctors and nurses through Brexit. 

 

Although just 6 % of NHS staff came from  E.U Countries prior to Brexit and all of those were given visas to stay and work in the UK and also E.U citizens can now apply for working visas to work in the UK

 

 

 

 

 

a

[nauseus]

6 hours ago, n00dle said:

tick tock. the benefits should trickle down by the time the dinosaurs that voted leave are well dead. 

So they will be fondly remembered then. Good.

[nauseus]

6 hours ago, RayC said:

Any idea how long we might have to wait?

 

I know it's selfish, but this rich bounty of benefits won't be of much use to me when I'm pushing up the daisies!

Not sure. When is your flight?

[nauseus]

49 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

Well, there are certainly millions who are still in denial, refusing to admit they were sold a pup!   Many are now saying "well we are stuck with it now, so we just have to make the best of it".  Pathetic and defeatist response. 

I wonder where this "make the best of it" crowd is? Never came across any of them. More the opposite, I'd say.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[RayC]

10 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Not sure. When is your flight?

 

4 minutes ago, nauseus said:

I wonder where this "make the best of it" crowd is? Never came across any of them. More the opposite, I'd say.

 

Couple of evasive non-answers as usual.

 

You're consistent, I'll give you that!

[Mac Mickmanus]

39 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

.  There is consequently a massive recruitment campaign to bring in nurses and doctors from Africa.  

 

 

Do you have a link to that claim ?

   The link below from the NHS says they are recruiting new NHS staff from the U.K in their annual staff recruitment measures and there are now 29 000 more NHS staff than there were prior to Brexit and they are looking to recruit 50 000 more staff 

 

 

 https://www.england.nhs.uk/2022/10/nhs-launches-recruitment-drive-for-tens-of-thousands-of-nurses-amid-record-staff-vacancies/

 

 

 

[RayC]

32 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

 

Although just 6 % of NHS staff came from  E.U Countries prior to Brexit and all of those were given visas to stay and work in the UK and also E.U citizens can now apply for working visas to work in the UK

The UK was not an attractive proposition for EU doctors when the UK was a member and it doesn't appear to have become any more attractive since we left. 

 

Perhaps it would pertinent to ask why?

[Mac Mickmanus]

5 minutes ago, RayC said:

The UK was not an attractive proposition for EU doctors when the UK was a member and it doesn't appear to have become any more attractive since we left. 

 

Perhaps it would pertinent to ask why?

I expect that fully qualified E.U Doctors can find suitable job opportunities and careers  in their home Country and moving abroad to work wouldn't be a benefit to them .

   Why would you expect a qualified Doctor from the E.U would want to come and work in the UK ?

[Chomper Higgot]

3 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

And those numerous huge field hospitals that were built  that were never used 

Better looking at a field hospital than looking for a field hospital.

[Chomper Higgot]

11 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

I expect that fully qualified E.U Doctors can find suitable job opportunities and careers  in their home Country and moving abroad to work wouldn't be a benefit to them .

   Why would you expect a qualified Doctor from the E.U would want to come and work in the UK ?

Why indeed, but that’s not the problem the UK NHS is facing.

 

The NHS has a shortage of health professionals across the board.

 

Twelve years of ‘The NHS is safe in our hands’.

[RayC]

14 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

I expect that fully qualified E.U Doctors can find suitable job opportunities and careers  in their home Country and moving abroad to work wouldn't be a benefit to them .

   Why would you expect a qualified Doctor from the E.U would want to come and work in the UK ?

For any number of reasons: Money; superior working conditions; the opportunity to further their knowledge/ career; opportunity to experience a different country/ culture, etc.

 

On reflection you are probably correct: Why would a qualified doctor from the EU want to come and work in the UK (especially post-Brexit)?

 

 

[Mac Mickmanus]

1 minute ago, RayC said:

For any number of reasons: Money; superior working conditions; the opportunity to further their knowledge/ career; opportunity to experience a different country/ culture, etc.

 

On reflection you are probably correct: Why would a qualified doctor from the EU want to come and work in the UK (especially post-Brexit)?

 

 

They would also get paid money in their home Country and the NHS is not renowned for paying large salaries .

  How would they be furthering their knowledge ?

Are you suggesting they could learn things in the UK that they couldn't learn back home ?

[placeholder]

24 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

I expect that fully qualified E.U Doctors can find suitable job opportunities and careers  in their home Country and moving abroad to work wouldn't be a benefit to them .

   Why would you expect a qualified Doctor from the E.U would want to come and work in the UK ?

I think it's obvious why:

 

The EU exodus: When doctors and nurses follow the money

More doctors and nurses move from one country to another than any other highly regulated profession in the EU, and the flows often go from East to West, from poorer EU countries to richer ones. A POLITICO analysis of European Commission data found the exodus of health care professionals is especially pronounced from Eastern and Southern Europe. In effect, these countries are training doctors for their richer neighbors.

https://www.politico.eu/article/doctors-nurses-migration-health-care-crisis-workers-follow-the-money-european-commission-data/

 

Health care on the brink in Romania, Bulgaria
Boryana Dzhambazova Bulgaria | Claudia Ciobanu Romania
07/02/2018July 2, 2018
Thousands of doctors and nurses have left the two Balkan countries to find better jobs abroad, deepening the crisis in their already dysfunctional health systems. Boryana Dzhambazova and Claudia Ciobanu report.

https://www.dw.com/en/medical-exodus-leaves-romania-bulgaria-in-pain/a-44487178

 

Romania’s Medical Exodus

The brain drain of Romanian doctors going to richer EU countries is dramatic: over the past two years 30 per cent of resident doctors have left Romania, reducing the overall number of physicians from 20,000 in 2011 to 14,000 last year, according to official data. Since it joined the 28-member bloc five years ago about 14,000 doctors have quit Romania.
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2014/01/romania-s-medical-exodus-almost-a-third-of-the-country-s-doctors-have-emigrated.html

 

 

 

[Mac Mickmanus]

21 minutes ago, placeholder said:

I think it's obvious why:

 

The EU exodus: When doctors and nurses follow the money

More doctors and nurses move from one country to another than any other highly regulated profession in the EU, and the flows often go from East to West, from poorer EU countries to richer ones. A POLITICO analysis of European Commission data found the exodus of health care professionals is especially pronounced from Eastern and Southern Europe. In effect, these countries are training doctors for their richer neighbors.

https://www.politico.eu/article/doctors-nurses-migration-health-care-crisis-workers-follow-the-money-european-commission-data/

 

Health care on the brink in Romania, Bulgaria
Boryana Dzhambazova Bulgaria | Claudia Ciobanu Romania
07/02/2018July 2, 2018
Thousands of doctors and nurses have left the two Balkan countries to find better jobs abroad, deepening the crisis in their already dysfunctional health systems. Boryana Dzhambazova and Claudia Ciobanu report.

https://www.dw.com/en/medical-exodus-leaves-romania-bulgaria-in-pain/a-44487178

 

Romania’s Medical Exodus

The brain drain of Romanian doctors going to richer EU countries is dramatic: over the past two years 30 per cent of resident doctors have left Romania, reducing the overall number of physicians from 20,000 in 2011 to 14,000 last year, according to official data. Since it joined the 28-member bloc five years ago about 14,000 doctors have quit Romania.
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2014/01/romania-s-medical-exodus-almost-a-third-of-the-country-s-doctors-have-emigrated.html

 

 

 

Your link is from 2014 and it states that .

"( At the beginning of this year, nine European countries lifted controls on labor immigration from Bulgaria and Romania, prompting some fears, particularly in Britain, about a flood of low-wage workers coming from two of the EU’s poorest countries. (As it happens, only a handful of workers from the two countries have arrived in Britain since the controls were lifted.)"

 

 

    That is when they were allowed to come to the UK and they didnt come , you were trying to show that Romanian Doctors wanted to come to the UK to work and the link that you provided showed they didnt actually want to come to work in the UK when they were allowed to 

 

   "The article notes that the net starting salary for a doctor in Bucharest is about 350 euros per month, compared with as much as 3,000 euros in Britain or Germany."

 

   Then when you factor in home rental costs , local travel expenses , tax and other living costs , that 3000 doesn't go far

 

   

[placeholder]

3 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Your link is from 2014 and it states that .

"( At the beginning of this year, nine European countries lifted controls on labor immigration from Bulgaria and Romania, prompting some fears, particularly in Britain, about a flood of low-wage workers coming from two of the EU’s poorest countries. (As it happens, only a handful of workers from the two countries have arrived in Britain since the controls were lifted.)"

 

 

    That is when they were allowed to come to the UK and they didnt come , you were trying to show that Romanian Doctors wanted to come to the UK to work and the link that you provided showed they didnt actually want to come to work in the UK when they were allowed to 

 

   "The article notes that the net starting salary for a doctor in Bucharest is about 350 euros per month, compared with as much as 3,000 euros in Britain or Germany."

 

   Then when you factor in home rental costs , local travel expenses , tax and other living costs , that 3000 doesn't go far

 

   

First off, there are 3 links. From 2014, 2017, and 2018. Here's another more recent one

 

Another reason for the shortage is that medical professionals choose to migrate from poorer countries within the European Union to wealthier ones, in search of better wages. For example, a young doctor in Finland, which has a shortage of doctors, can make €2,000 to €3,000 per month, which is four to five times what that doctor could make in Estonia. The result is that poorer countries are experiencing greater shortages. Richer countries still face shortages because the rise in the number of doctors cannot match the rate at which the continent is aging.

https://www.eubusinessnews.com/the-european-healthcare-sector-is-rich-in-job-opportunities/

 

And another:

 

Romanian doctors on the move: The loss of a strategic resource in the context of the COVID-19 pandemic

 This working paper investigates the migration of Romanian doctors, a worrisome phenomenon, especially due to its long-term effects for the health sector. It draws attention to the fact that, in the context of the COVID-19 pandemic, doctors became a strategic resource for which countries currently compete. The research highlights the main evolutions regarding the doctors' migration from Romania, analysing the period before the accession to European Union (EU) and the post-2007 situation. Equally important for this research are the following categories: native Romanian health specialists, doctors trained in Romanian universities (both the ones that decide to continue working for Romanian hospitals and the ones that leave after their studies/training period). 

https://www.econstor.eu/handle/10419/251189

 

And another:

The shortage of doctors and young specialists is becoming a national problem for Bulgaria

In the beginning of 2020, many Bulgarian hospitals, even the largest ones, faced a severe shortage of doctors amid the coronavirus pandemic. Many specialists went to Western Europe, where there was also a severe shortage of experienced staff. It is mostly young doctors who leave Bulgaria, continue their education and specialization abroad and stay there. The average age of doctors in Bulgaria is quite high and most experts are employed at hospitals in large Bulgarian cities such as Sofia, Plovdiv, Varna and Pleven.

https://bnr.bg/en/post/101669305/the-shortage-of-doctors-and-young-specialist-is-becoming-a-national-problem-for-bulgaria

[Mac Mickmanus]

Just now, placeholder said:

First off, there are 3 links. From 2014, 2017, and 2018. Here's another more recent one

 

Another reason for the shortage is that medical professionals choose to migrate from poorer countries within the European Union to wealthier ones, in search of better wages. For example, a young doctor in Finland, which has a shortage of doctors, can make €2,000 to €3,000 per month, which is four to five times what that doctor could make in Estonia. The result is that poorer countries are experiencing greater shortages. Richer countries still face shortages because the rise in the number of doctors cannot match the rate at which the continent is aging.

https://www.eubusinessnews.com/the-european-healthcare-sector-is-rich-in-job-opportunities/

 

And another:

 

Romanian doctors on the move: The loss of a strategic resource in the context of the COVID-19 pandemic

 This working paper investigates the migration of Romanian doctors, a worrisome phenomenon, especially due to its long-term effects for the health sector. It draws attention to the fact that, in the context of the COVID-19 pandemic, doctors became a strategic resource for which countries currently compete. The research highlights the main evolutions regarding the doctors' migration from Romania, analysing the period before the accession to European Union (EU) and the post-2007 situation. Equally important for this research are the following categories: native Romanian health specialists, doctors trained in Romanian universities (both the ones that decide to continue working for Romanian hospitals and the ones that leave after their studies/training period). 

https://www.econstor.eu/handle/10419/251189

 

And another:

The shortage of doctors and young specialists is becoming a national problem for Bulgaria

In the beginning of 2020, many Bulgarian hospitals, even the largest ones, faced a severe shortage of doctors amid the coronavirus pandemic. Many specialists went to Western Europe, where there was also a severe shortage of experienced staff. It is mostly young doctors who leave Bulgaria, continue their education and specialization abroad and stay there. The average age of doctors in Bulgaria is quite high and most experts are employed at hospitals in large Bulgarian cities such as Sofia, Plovdiv, Varna and Pleven.

https://bnr.bg/en/post/101669305/the-shortage-of-doctors-and-young-specialist-is-becoming-a-national-problem-for-bulgaria

TBH, I didn't really have the time to keep opening numerous  links and reading the content and then replying to those links . 

   Its a bit much to expect me to open six links , read all the content and then reply to it 

[placeholder]

Just now, Mac Mickmanus said:

TBH, I didn't really have the time to keep opening numerous  links and reading the content and then replying to those links . 

   Its a bit much to expect me to open six links , read all the content and then reply to it 

Anyway, the point is with such huge wage differentials, why wouldn't poorly paid doctors emigrate? They do. Now the UK is depending more on doctors and other healthcare workers from Africa and Asia.

[RayC]

52 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

They would also get paid money in their home Country and the NHS is not renowned for paying large salaries .

Re salaries: Agree completely 

 

Depends which is the home country: France, Germany, Benelux - yes. Not in Eastern Europe they wouldn't. (As the Politico link shows this is actually a problem for some of these countries, so you can pocket that as one negative for freedom of movement).

 

52 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

  How would they be furthering their knowledge ?

Are you suggesting they could learn things in the UK that they couldn't learn back home ?

Is that not a possibility? For example, Papworth is (was?) world-renowned for its' cardiology expertise.