Why is the UK struggling more than other countries?

[johnnybangkok]

5 minutes ago, nauseus said:

The first thing that the website says is that "one of the most important facts about refugees in the UK is that they’re currently under attack like never before". That statement is not true IMO - Britain has always protected and given sanctuary to true refugees.

The problem is not those who are not fleeing real danger but those who have left a safe place and are trying to enter the country illegally for their own ends. This latter group causes a big and costly problem, whatever happens to them later.

You guys are really struggling with this. 
Firstly the “attack” you are referencing is regarding the politics of what is happening. It even says straight after “Take a few minutes to find out why we call the Government’s flagship ‘Nationality and Borders Bill’ the Anti-Refugee Bill. 
Secondly (and probably more importantly) no one on here is supporting illegal immigrants. I think that has been made crystal clear. We are however supporting a persons right to claim asylum (like most civilized countries do) and the right to stay in the UK whilst that process is happening. If the process is broken ( and again I highlighted this on a previous post as I agree it needs to be fixed) then that’s a government failing and NOT the fault of those claiming asylum. 
But here’s the rub; if someone is in the UK illegally then it’s not costing you a single penny as since they are illegal and flying under the radar, they’re hardly bowling into the nearest dole office with their hand out and screaming to be housed. 
So in summary, asylum seekers should be allowed in but deported if they don’t qualify. Illegal immigrants should be deported once they have been found (easier said than done) and other immigrants should be allowed in on a points system which is exactly what happens currently. 
The UK’s current troubles are NOT because of immigrants, legal or not. That’s just an argument from the ill informed. No, the problems are a mixture of an ill-advised Brexit, a VERY expensive pandemic and 12 years of Tory incompetence. 
But I don’t see any of you pointing the finger at who actually is to blame because your beloved Boris delivered Brexit and you can’t bring yourself to admit it’s been a farce from the beginning with no noticeable benefits whatsoever. And that includes immigration. 

[candide]

1 hour ago, Eleftheros said:

Excuse me, they could have avoided all those problems by not locking down the whole economy in the first place, and focused on looking after the extremely vulnerable. That's what their own Pandemic Preparedness Strategy, which had been developed over 10 years, recommended.

 

Instead, they locked down healthy people (for the first time in recorded history), following the example of China, and launched the country into a comedy of murderous errors whose effects will persist for decades and be mainly felt by children and future generations.

 

Excuse me, but there may have been good reasons for this decision. In particular, the fact that epidemics diffuse according to a wave pattern. Actually the problem has been that UK did not apply lockdowns fast and hard enough.

https://theconversation.com/did-the-covid-lockdowns-work-heres-what-we-know-two-years-on-176623

Edited November 19, 2022 by candide

[Bkk Brian]

1 hour ago, Eleftheros said:

Excuse me, they could have avoided all those problems by not locking down the whole economy in the first place, and focused on looking after the extremely vulnerable. That's what their own Pandemic Preparedness Strategy, which had been developed over 10 years, recommended.

 

Instead, they locked down healthy people (for the first time in recorded history), following the example of China, and launched the country into a comedy of murderous errors whose effects will persist for decades and be mainly felt by children and future generations.

 

UK followed China? I thought Italy was the first country in the world to have a national lockdown due to the hospitals being a breaking point.

[johnnybangkok]

1 hour ago, Eleftheros said:

Excuse me, they could have avoided all those problems by not locking down the whole economy in the first place, and focused on looking after the extremely vulnerable. That's what their own Pandemic Preparedness Strategy, which had been developed over 10 years, recommended.

 

Instead, they locked down healthy people (for the first time in recorded history), following the example of China, and launched the country into a comedy of murderous errors whose effects will persist for decades and be mainly felt by children and future generations.

 

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. If you recall Boris and the Tories were actually going to do this and with his “best thing would be to ignore it” statement and “herd immunity” nonsense but he was forced to do a dramatic u-turn when his advisers extrapolated the numbers out and found out a LOT of people were going to die. A LOT. 
Nothing you are saying is wrong, but they did what they did at the time with the information they had so I’m a bit less harsh on this one. 

[nauseus]

13 minutes ago, johnnybangkok said:

You guys are really struggling with this. 
Firstly the “attack” you are referencing is regarding the politics of what is happening. It even says straight after “Take a few minutes to find out why we call the Government’s flagship ‘Nationality and Borders Bill’ the Anti-Refugee Bill. 
Secondly (and probably more importantly) no one on here is supporting illegal immigrants. I think that has been made crystal clear. We are however supporting a persons right to claim asylum (like most civilized countries do) and the right to stay in the UK whilst that process is happening. If the process is broken ( and again I highlighted this on a previous post as I agree it needs to be fixed) then that’s a government failing and NOT the fault of those claiming asylum. 
But here’s the rub; if someone is in the UK illegally then it’s not costing you a single penny as since they are illegal and flying under the radar, they’re hardly bowling into the nearest dole office with their hand out and screaming to be housed. 
So in summary, asylum seekers should be allowed in but deported if they don’t qualify. Illegal immigrants should be deported once they have been found (easier said than done) and other immigrants should be allowed in on a points system which is exactly what happens currently. 
The UK’s current troubles are NOT because of immigrants, legal or not. That’s just an argument from the ill informed. No, the problems are a mixture of an ill-advised Brexit, a VERY expensive pandemic and 12 years of Tory incompetence. 
But I don’t see any of you pointing the finger at who actually is to blame because your beloved Boris delivered Brexit and you can’t bring yourself to admit it’s been a farce from the beginning with no noticeable benefits whatsoever. And that includes immigration. 

The site does not explain itself the way you are trying to.

 

If someone is in the UK illegally, then it’s not a given that they are "flying under the radar" - that group are likely staying in hotel accommodation, waiting for their hearings on asylum claims/legal status and so, yes, of course they are costing (the UK tax payer) a fortune in the meantime. That meantime might mean years.

 

Others that have dispersed "under the radar" will have their own reasons for doing that, which are illegal in themselves and not likely not to be good ones in any case. Assuming that this last group will probably include a criminal element, then, in time, the extra cost of accommodation at HM Prisons will likely just add  more onto the tax bill.

 

Looks like it's you struggling, not me, I'll leave you to it 

 

 

[nauseus]

13 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

UK followed China? I thought Italy was the first country in the world to have a national lockdown due to the hospitals being a breaking point.

As far as I remember, yes. 

[Mac Mickmanus]

10 minutes ago, johnnybangkok said:

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. If you recall Boris and the Tories were actually going to do this and with his “best thing would be to ignore it” statement and “herd immunity” nonsense but he was forced to do a dramatic u-turn when his advisers extrapolated the numbers out and found out a LOT of people were going to die. A LOT. 
Nothing you are saying is wrong, but they did what they did at the time with the information they had so I’m a bit less harsh on this one. 

A lot of people did die anyway , even with the lock-downs

[Chomper Higgot]

1 hour ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Isn't it blatantly obvious ?

Immigrants from E.U countries are typically Caucasians and immigrants from Africa/Asia are typically non Caucasians 

Arguably the most twisted logic I’ve read on this forum,

 

The photos of migrants see by the Leave campaign were not white Europeans, and at the time the implicit racism of the Leave messaging was widely criticized.

 

By what twisted logic you turn that into your nonsense above is a mystery.

 

Racism was a core of Leave messaging, give up trying to transfer that on those who spoke up against the racism in Brexit messaging.

 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

8 minutes ago, nauseus said:

The site does not explain itself the way you are trying to.

 

If someone is in the UK illegally, then it’s not a given that they are "flying under the radar" - that group are likely staying in hotel accommodation, waiting for their hearings on asylum claims/legal status and so, yes, of course they are costing (the UK tax payer) a fortune in the meantime. That meantime might mean years.

 

Others that have dispersed "under the radar" will have their own reasons for doing that, which are illegal in themselves and not likely not to be good ones in any case. Assuming that this last group will probably include a criminal element, then, in time, the extra cost of accommodation at HM Prisons will likely just add  more onto the tax bill.

 

Looks like it's you struggling, not me, I'll leave you to it 

 

 

I’ll tell you who’s struggling.

 

The people who said they were going to fix the problem.

 

I suggest you go ask them for an explanation of their abject failure in the matter.

[Bkk Brian]

10 minutes ago, nauseus said:

As far as I remember, yes. 

If by yes you mean Italy then you are correct. Wuhan was the first city in the world but Italy was the first total countrywide national lockdown

[johnnybangkok]

17 minutes ago, nauseus said:

The site does not explain itself the way you are trying to.

 

If someone is in the UK illegally, then it’s not a given that they are "flying under the radar" - that group are likely staying in hotel accommodation, waiting for their hearings on asylum claims/legal status and so, yes, of course they are costing (the UK tax payer) a fortune in the meantime. That meantime might mean years.

 

Others that have dispersed "under the radar" will have their own reasons for doing that, which are illegal in themselves and not likely not to be good ones in any case. Assuming that this last group will probably include a criminal element, then, in time, the extra cost of accommodation at HM Prisons will likely just add  more onto the tax bill.

 

Looks like it's you struggling, not me, I'll leave you to it 

 

 

No one is denying there is a huge cost to processing asylum seekers but the main problem is there is such a huge backlog that the process is dragging out much longer than usual and costing much more than it ever did. This is NOT the fault of asylum seekers though. This is a government problem, one of its very many. 
And I’m just going to ignore your “criminal element” comment. It’s puerile and unsubstantiated. 

[superal]

3 hours ago, johnnybangkok said:

You are completely missing the point and I think it’s telling that you don’t know the difference. 
If someone lands in the UK (or any country) and claims asylum, they are an asylum seeker. If they come in without declaring asylum and don’t get caught (in the back of a lorry for example), they are an illegal immigrant. 
Two different things. Two different subjects. 
And the EU are not “hurting”. They owe the UK nothing. The UK decided to leave so it now has to follow whatever processes any other country would have to who also gave up their trade deal with the EU. Maybe start blaming the people who actually did the leaving (who were warned constantly about what was going yo happen) rather than the EU. 
 

You really are grasping at straws and digging a deeper hole with every reply . OK , lets look at someone who has landed in the UK and claims asylum . They are very few and far between . They will have a visa to enter the UK . A visa for the UK is not easy to get , unless you are with sound financial figures  and with a good reason to return to your home country . On entry to the UK you could apply for asylum . To apply for asylum you must be in the UK . In my opinion those channel hoppers and back of a lorry smuggled chancers who have managed to illegally gain entry into the UK , should be taken back to their place of departure or Rwanda etc . That would be a deterrent . 

An annoying fact is that when these rubber dinghy's get over half way and into British waters the UK navy picks them up and takes them ashore to the UK .

The UK were the third highest contributor to the EU with some 22 billion £s in 2018/19 . That loss has had to be made up . The UK are well rid of the bureaucrats of Belgium . As far as the Irish protocol is concerned there should be a vote on reunification with the Republic of Ireland .    

[Simple Jack]

When people in the U,K. Are arrested & jailed for selling mince pies. Or pointing out the obvious. Two genders. I wonder why?

 

 

[Simple Jack]

Idk why every topic turns to sheet here. All i know is this. If UbonJoe wasnt part of this forum. It would be dead a long,long time ago.

[RayC]

3 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

 

   The reason why I don't take an interest in the economic effects of Brexit is because its a very boring and complex subject and ultimately makes no different at all ,

Indeed, it is a complex subject which is why Margaret Thatcher (amongst others) was against having an 'In/ Out' referendum on EU membership. She had a point.

 

3 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

add into that the effects by Covid and Ukraine and then it would be rather difficult to ascertain the correct results .

You are still flogging this erroneous argument - and trying to present it as fact - despite evidence to the contrary having been posted on numerous occasions.

 

3 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

   I was in favour of Brexit for the reason to stop the endless flow of Europeans flooding the job market , 6-10 million and rising .

In your first paragraph, you casually dismiss the economic effects of Brexit. Here you say that you voted Brexit because because freedom of movement distorted the UK labour market! You can't have it both ways

 

3 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

   Even if that was bad for the economy , I wouldn't change my mind about my opinion of leaving

The phrase 'Cutting off the nose ..." comes to mind.

 

3 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

 , as I said, the economy isn't the most important thing 

But you said that controlling the UK labour market was? Doesn't that fall within a discussion about the economy.

 

I am completely confused by your line of argument and its' logic.

Edited November 19, 2022 by RayC
Insertion of missing word

[placeholder]

Just now, Mac Mickmanus said:

That was my point , they stated that hate crimes happened more in certain areas after the Brexit vote and those hate crimes include social media posts .

   How did they know where social media posts originate from ?

Because some like facebook let you know.

[Mac Mickmanus]

3 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Because some like facebook let you know.

Really ?

How can you find out on facebook as to where a post originates from ?

[johnnybangkok]

20 minutes ago, superal said:

You really are grasping at straws and digging a deeper hole with every reply . OK , lets look at someone who has landed in the UK and claims asylum . They are very few and far between . They will have a visa to enter the UK . A visa for the UK is not easy to get , unless you are with sound financial figures  and with a good reason to return to your home country . On entry to the UK you could apply for asylum . To apply for asylum you must be in the UK . In my opinion those channel hoppers and back of a lorry smuggled chancers who have managed to illegally gain entry into the UK , should be taken back to their place of departure or Rwanda etc . That would be a deterrent . 

An annoying fact is that when these rubber dinghy's get over half way and into British waters the UK navy picks them up and takes them ashore to the UK .

The UK were the third highest contributor to the EU with some 22 billion £s in 2018/19 . That loss has had to be made up . The UK are well rid of the bureaucrats of Belgium . As far as the Irish protocol is concerned there should be a vote on reunification with the Republic of Ireland .    

The UK is signed up to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (Article 14), which states that everyone has the right to seek and enjoy asylum from persecution in other countries. It doesn’t discriminate on mode of transport so whether a person arrives by plane, lorry or rubber dinghy , there are laws in place to how they are treated. 
The fact that you don’t like this is irrelevant. The law is the law and the UK rightfully follows the law. And since you probably thought Brexit was going to improve the immigration issue then as you are clearly seeing every day, you were lied to about that as well. 
Stopped a few Polish guys from working in Cricklewood though. 

[ozimoron]

2 hours ago, nauseus said:

The first thing that the website says is that "one of the most important facts about refugees in the UK is that they’re currently under attack like never before". That statement is not true IMO - Britain has always protected and given sanctuary to true refugees.

The problem is not those who are not fleeing real danger but those who have left a safe place and are trying to enter the country illegally for their own ends. This latter group causes a big and costly problem, whatever happens to them later.

Apparently true refugees doesn't include anyone from the Middle east or Africa.

[Mac Mickmanus]

9 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

Apparently true refugees doesn't include anyone from the Middle east or Africa.

Who has claimed that ?

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Who has claimed that ?

There's been more than a few people here supporting the UK government's attempts to deport refugee claimants WITHOUT a hearing in the UK and no representation in woop woop.

[Mac Mickmanus]

35 minutes ago, RayC said:

 

 

You are still flogging this erroneous argument - and trying to present it as fact - despite evidence to the contrary having been posted on numerous occasions.

 

 

Covid and Ukraine has had a huge effect on the UK economy , so you cannot divide Brexit, Ukraine and Covid up and see the effects individually 

[Mac Mickmanus]

1 minute ago, ozimoron said:

There's been more than a few people here supporting the UK government's attempts to deport refugee claimants WITHOUT a hearing in the UK and no representation in woop woop.

Yes, but that doesn't answer the question I asked 

[ozimoron]

Just now, Mac Mickmanus said:

Covid and Ukraine has had a huge effect on the UK economy , so you cannot divide Brexit, Ukraine and Covid up and see the effects individually 

Why not, Ukraine and Covid are common to all EU countries but Brexit only the UK so easy to factor it out.

[ozimoron]

Just now, Mac Mickmanus said:

Yes, but that doesn't answer the question I asked 

Yes it does, it means those people don't respect refugee status. International law mandates that they get a hearing.

[Mac Mickmanus]

41 minutes ago, RayC said:

 

 

In your first paragraph, you casually dismiss the economic effects of Brexit. Here you say that you voted Brexit because because freedom of movement distorted the UK labour market! You can't have it both ways

 

 

Just to keep it factual, I didn't actually vote for Brexit .

My point was that I was in favour of Brexit because it restricted Europeans rights from working in the U.K and I am not bothered about how that has effected the UK economy 

[Mac Mickmanus]

5 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

Why not, Ukraine and Covid are common to all EU countries but Brexit only the UK so easy to factor it out.

Other European Countries are also suffering the same as the UK, some are faring better and some are faring worse .

   

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Other European Countries are also suffering the same as the UK, some are faring better and some are faring worse .

   

Which western european countries are faring worse?

[Mac Mickmanus]

47 minutes ago, RayC said:

 

 

But you said that controlling the UK labour market was? Doesn't that fall within a discussion about the economy.

 

I am completely confused by your line of argument and its' logic.

As above , controlling the UK labour market may have had an effect on the economy , but it doesn't matter whether it did or not , because the economy  isn't the mot important thing 

[Mac Mickmanus]

1 minute ago, ozimoron said:

Which western european countries are faring worse?

I have posted graphs many time before to show how European Countries are faring, do you want time to post the graphs again ?

   The U.K is about in the middle