More refreshing (and surprising) honesty from mainstream media.

[pomchop]

2 hours ago, placeholder said:

Did you do a search for it? That would be the sensible course before making accusations. 

he has not a clue...a few words cut and paste...

[pomchop]

2 hours ago, rumak said:

pretty easy to see that your post is almost all   "copy and paste".   What was your source from which it was copied ?  it definitely is being shown for what it is:  paid for lies

got it...on the way to bank now to cash my check.  

[ozimoron]

8 hours ago, KhunLA said:

Even got 'vaccine' redefined ... simply amazing.

 

Falls (vaccines) under a whole different set of laws for lawsuits.  Even have there own 'vaccine court' (USA), for quick settlements they don't have to take responsibility for.  Part of each sale (taxed) goes toward settlements and keeping the court operational.  Mind boggling to say the least.

 

Not that I ever did put much stock in them, but I don't trust UN, WHO, WTO, FDA, CDC, pretty much anything big pharm or govt say anymore, as there's simply too many Billions of $$$ at stake.

 

IMHO ... the whole system is simply too corrupt.  If covid didn't prove that ... that speaks volumes for the deaf, dumb & blind simply believing anything they're told.

https://www.hrsa.gov/vaccine-compensation

 

"VICP is funded by a 75-cent excise tax on each dose of the 16 CDC-recommended vaccines and currently has nearly $4.3 billion on hand. Congress must also appropriate money from the fund to cover Department of Justice attorneys’ and the federal claims court’s work to process claims, in addition to the claims themselves."

https://www.politico.com/news/2022/06/01/vaccine-injury-compensation-programs-overwhelmed-as-congressional-reform-languishes-00033064

 

Some might think this was the motive to redefine vaccine.  

"For most drugs—actually, every type of drug other than vaccines—the manufacturer can be legally liable for harm that results from a product it sells. Vaccines are produced by privately held pharmaceutical companies, but they have a unique arrangement with the U.S. government: When a person reports harm that could feasibly be related to a vaccine, a government program—not a pharmaceutical company—pays compensation."

 https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2019/05/vaccine-safety-program/589354/

Try "clarified".

[placeholder]

Just now, rattlesnake said:

Care to expand a bit on this? I assume you have read the report? Do you mean she is lying and shouldn't be taken seriously?

 

Please address the questions directly and avoid using pseudo-jargon.

First off, as I pointed out, there are people who win 2 lotteries. Events like this are to be expected. They're rare, but actually virtually inevitable. What don't you understand about this?

Also, as the author of that piece points out, the good that vaccines do far outweighs the harms. We have a huge amount of statistical data to support this. Once the populations were widely vaccinated, it was disproportionately the unvaccinated who were hospitalized and died.

In the US a study was done comparing how the members of one political party which had a large anti vaccine contingent. fared against the party where vaccine support was much large. Those areas where votes were strongest for the anti-vaccination party had a mortality rate almost 3 times that of areas where the pro-vaccination party was strongest.

I don't know what the situation is in Australia but in the USA there is the VAERS and the UK has the Yellow book or something like that. They are constantly combed by medical statisticians to see if there are correlations with the general population. Statistiticians don't deny that long term injury from vaccination can occur. But so what? That can be said of other vaccines as well. It's the rate of injury vs the injury and mortality rates of the unvaccinated that counts.

Even this apparently afflicted doctor says as much. What don't you understand about that?

 

[Bkk Brian]

18 minutes ago, placeholder said:

First off, as I pointed out, there are people who win 2 lotteries. Events like this are to be expected. They're rare, but actually virtually inevitable. What don't you understand about this?

Also, as the author of that piece points out, the good that vaccines do far outweighs the harms. We have a huge amount of statistical data to support this. Once the populations were widely vaccinated, it was disproportionately the unvaccinated who were hospitalized and died.

In the US a study was done comparing how the members of one political party which had a large anti vaccine contingent. fared against the party where vaccine support was much large. Those areas where votes were strongest for the anti-vaccination party had a mortality rate almost 3 times that of areas where the pro-vaccination party was strongest.

I don't know what the situation is in Australia but in the USA there is the VAERS and the UK has the Yellow book or something like that. They are constantly combed by medical statisticians to see if there are correlations with the general population. Statistiticians don't deny that long term injury from vaccination can occur. But so what? That can be said of other vaccines as well. It's the rate of injury vs the injury and mortality rates of the unvaccinated that counts.

Even this apparently afflicted doctor says as much. What don't you understand about that?

 

He's just cherry picking data, I've already pointed that out to him. He misses that this is a personal submission only and she links to the official submission from the paper via https://ozsage.org/ who she actually works for:

 

Long covid – OzSAGE makes detailed submission to the Parliamentary Inquiry

"Available vaccines lower the risk of hospitalization and death"

https://ozsage.org/media_releases/long-covid-ozsage-makes-detailed-submission-to-the-parliamentary-inquiry/

 

IMPORTANCE OF COVID-19 VACCINATION & DEVELOPMENT OF BETTER SYSTEMS FOR MANAGEMENT OF UNCOMMON SUBSEQUENT ADVERSE EVENT

The aim of this position statement is to  

reinforce the importance of COVID-19 vaccination, and of remaining up to date in line with the ATAGI recommended vaccination schedule, and of supporting global vaccine equity

remind that part of ensuring the integrity of and confidence in the vaccination programme is the surveillance and management of uncommon adverse incidents following vaccination that may, or may not be related to vaccines

https://ozsage.org/media_releases/importance-of-covid-19-vaccination-development-of-better-systems-for-management-of-uncommon-subsequent-adverse-events/

 

[Scott]

Posts violating Fair Use Policy reported and removed.  

 

 

[rattlesnake]

3 hours ago, placeholder said:

First off, as I pointed out, there are people who win 2 lotteries. Events like this are to be expected. They're rare, but actually virtually inevitable. What don't you understand about this?

Also, as the author of that piece points out, the good that vaccines do far outweighs the harms. We have a huge amount of statistical data to support this. Once the populations were widely vaccinated, it was disproportionately the unvaccinated who were hospitalized and died.

In the US a study was done comparing how the members of one political party which had a large anti vaccine contingent. fared against the party where vaccine support was much large. Those areas where votes were strongest for the anti-vaccination party had a mortality rate almost 3 times that of areas where the pro-vaccination party was strongest.

I don't know what the situation is in Australia but in the USA there is the VAERS and the UK has the Yellow book or something like that. They are constantly combed by medical statisticians to see if there are correlations with the general population. Statistiticians don't deny that long term injury from vaccination can occur. But so what? That can be said of other vaccines as well. It's the rate of injury vs the injury and mortality rates of the unvaccinated that counts.

Even this apparently afflicted doctor says as much. What don't you understand about that?

 

1. Are the Covid vaccines safe?

2. Are the adverse reactions to the Covid vaccines a cause for concern?

[rattlesnake]

3 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

He's just cherry picking data, I've already pointed that out to him. He misses that this is a personal submission only and she links to the official submission from the paper via https://ozsage.org/ who she actually works for:

 

Long covid – OzSAGE makes detailed submission to the Parliamentary Inquiry

"Available vaccines lower the risk of hospitalization and death"

https://ozsage.org/media_releases/long-covid-ozsage-makes-detailed-submission-to-the-parliamentary-inquiry/

 

IMPORTANCE OF COVID-19 VACCINATION & DEVELOPMENT OF BETTER SYSTEMS FOR MANAGEMENT OF UNCOMMON SUBSEQUENT ADVERSE EVENT

The aim of this position statement is to  

reinforce the importance of COVID-19 vaccination, and of remaining up to date in line with the ATAGI recommended vaccination schedule, and of supporting global vaccine equity

remind that part of ensuring the integrity of and confidence in the vaccination programme is the surveillance and management of uncommon adverse incidents following vaccination that may, or may not be related to vaccines

https://ozsage.org/media_releases/importance-of-covid-19-vaccination-development-of-better-systems-for-management-of-uncommon-subsequent-adverse-events/

 

1. Are the Covid vaccines safe?

2. Are the adverse reactions to the Covid vaccines a cause for concern?

[ozimoron]

3 minutes ago, rattlesnake said:

1. Are the Covid vaccines safe?

2. Are the adverse reactions to the Covid vaccines a cause for concern?

I'm still alive after 4 jabs and a dose of covid. That's all I need to know.

[Bkk Brian]

2 hours ago, rattlesnake said:

1. Are the Covid vaccines safe?

2. Are the adverse reactions to the Covid vaccines a cause for concern?

1. Risk benefit ratio for most people very safe. Do you have credible evidence that is not the case?

 

I've answered your initial question. Links already provided.

 

Waiting for you to return with same before I go onto 2.

 

 

[placeholder]

4 hours ago, rattlesnake said:

1. Are the Covid vaccines safe?

2. Are the adverse reactions to the Covid vaccines a cause for concern?

Have any epidemiologists claimed that any vaccines are  100% safe? Are any medications 100% safe?

Being vaccinated against covid is safer than not being vaccinated against covid.

Is not being vaccinated against covid safe?

[pomchop]

12 hours ago, rumak said:

pretty easy to see that your post is almost all   "copy and paste".   What was your source from which it was copied ?  it definitely is being shown for what it is:  paid for lies

this is the extent of cut and paste in my post:  the benefits outweigh the risks for most people

8 words....

 

all the rest i wrote so not sure what the heck you are smoking or rambling on about....a tiny bit of research would have shown that your accusations of " almost all copy and paste, paid for lies "post is a load of rubbish....

 

will await your apology but won't hold my breath

[placeholder]

18 hours ago, KhunLA said:

Even got 'vaccine' redefined ... simply amazing.

 

Falls (vaccines) under a whole different set of laws for lawsuits.  Even have there own 'vaccine court' (USA), for quick settlements they don't have to take responsibility for.  Part of each sale (taxed) goes toward settlements and keeping the court operational.  Mind boggling to say the least.

 

Not that I ever did put much stock in them, but I don't trust UN, WHO, WTO, FDA, CDC, pretty much anything big pharm or govt say anymore, as there's simply too many Billions of $$$ at stake.

 

IMHO ... the whole system is simply too corrupt.  If covid didn't prove that ... that speaks volumes for the deaf, dumb & blind simply believing anything they're told.

https://www.hrsa.gov/vaccine-compensation

 

"VICP is funded by a 75-cent excise tax on each dose of the 16 CDC-recommended vaccines and currently has nearly $4.3 billion on hand. Congress must also appropriate money from the fund to cover Department of Justice attorneys’ and the federal claims court’s work to process claims, in addition to the claims themselves."

https://www.politico.com/news/2022/06/01/vaccine-injury-compensation-programs-overwhelmed-as-congressional-reform-languishes-00033064

 

Some might think this was the motive to redefine vaccine.  

"For most drugs—actually, every type of drug other than vaccines—the manufacturer can be legally liable for harm that results from a product it sells. Vaccines are produced by privately held pharmaceutical companies, but they have a unique arrangement with the U.S. government: When a person reports harm that could feasibly be related to a vaccine, a government program—not a pharmaceutical company—pays compensation."

 https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2019/05/vaccine-safety-program/589354/

Vaccines have continuously been redefined as knowledge of them deepens. Originally vaccine meant the pus from cowpox. So I guess every change since is proof of what exactly?

 

Vaccines were given special treatment because pharmaceutical companies refused to make them unless that were the case.

 

As for that Atlantic article, it's clear that you didn't read it since it explains why the program exists. An explanation that is not favorable to what you claim. The subhead says it all:

 

"A little-known deal protects drug companies in the U.S. from being sued—and feeds conspiracy theories in the process."

 

[rattlesnake]

15 hours ago, placeholder said:

Have any epidemiologists claimed that any vaccines are  100% safe? Are any medications 100% safe?

Being vaccinated against covid is safer than not being vaccinated against covid.

Is not being vaccinated against covid safe?

1. Are the Covid vaccines less safe than all other vaccines?

2. Are the adverse reactions to the Covid vaccines more concerning than those to all other vaccines?

[rattlesnake]

17 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

1. Risk benefit ratio for most people very safe. Do you have credible evidence that is not the case?

 

I've answered your initial question. Links already provided.

 

Waiting for you to return with same before I go onto 2.

 

 

I don't wish to start debating or exchanging links at this stage, I just want clarity. Here is my opinion, expressed clearly:

1. The Covid vaccine is not safe.

2. The adverse reactions to the Covid vaccine are very concerning.

 

You've answered question 1, now please answer question 2:

Are the adverse reactions to the Covid vaccines a cause for concern?

[placeholder]

15 minutes ago, rattlesnake said:

1. Are the Covid vaccines less safe than all other vaccines?

2. Are the adverse reactions to the Covid vaccines more concerning than those to all other vaccines?

Do you imagine that you're the Lord High Inquisitor and that you get to only ask questions, not answer them?

[placeholder]

8 minutes ago, rattlesnake said:

I don't wish to start debating or exchanging links at this stage, I just want clarity. Here is my opinion, expressed clearly:

1. The Covid vaccine is not safe.

2. The adverse reactions to the Covid vaccine are very concerning.

 

You've answered question 1, now please answer question 2:

Are the adverse reactions to the Covid vaccines a cause for concern?

Yes, you've expressed your opinion clearly, You haven't offered any good epidemoligical evidence to back it up, though.  Such opinions are valueless.

You don't explain what you mean by "very concerning". What is the frequency of these severe symptoms. How do they compare to the lessening of that supremely grave symptom commonly called "death"? You've got nothing.

[rattlesnake]

2 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Do you imagine that you're the Lord High Inquisitor and that you get to only ask questions, not answer them?

I reformulated because you are obviously trying to deflect. Answer my questions first and I will gladly answer yours.

[rattlesnake]

1 minute ago, placeholder said:

Yes, you've expressed your opinion clearly, You haven't offered any good epidemoligical evidence to back it up, though.  Such opinions are valueless.

You don't explain what you mean by "very concerning". What is the frequency of these severe symptoms. How do they compare to the lessening of that supremely grave symptom commonly called "death"? You've got nothing.

And I would appreciate if you could express yours clearly too.

[placeholder]

Just now, rattlesnake said:

I reformulated because you are obviously trying to deflect. Answer my questions first and I will gladly answer yours.

I answered your first question very clearly.

I asked what you meant by "very concerning". Are we just dealing with touchy feely stuff emotions here? Should research into adverse effects from vaccination be conducted? Sure. I'm sure there are interesting things to be learned from it. But do serious symptoms arising from covid vaccinations invalidate those vaccinations. That can only be evaluated from a statistical analysis of results. And you repeatedly ignore those results which overwhelmingly show that covid vaccinations have saved hundreds of thousands of lives.

[placeholder]

5 minutes ago, rattlesnake said:

And I would appreciate if you could express yours clearly too.

You offer no analysis of my replies to clarify what your objections are. And I can only assume that the reason for that is you've got nothing. Asking the same questions over and over again is just badgering. Badgers are very close relatives of trolls.

[rattlesnake]

3 minutes ago, placeholder said:

You offer no analysis of my replies to clarify what your objections are. And I can only assume that the reason for that is you've got nothing. Asking the same questions over and over again is just badgering. Badgers are very close relatives of trolls.

Over the past 15 months we have debated this extensively, my objections and opinions have repeatedly been made very clear and substantiated as much as possible withing the restrictions of this forum. My time is too precious to replicate what is already done.

Clarity is very important in communication, sometimes a four-word sentence says more than an intricate paragraph, which is why I occasionally ask you (and the 3-4 other members who still vehemently defend the Covid vaccinations) to take an unambiguous stance on the matter, just to see if there has been an evolution (in your case there obviously hasn't).

[rattlesnake]

19 minutes ago, placeholder said:

I answered your first question very clearly.

I asked what you meant by "very concerning". Are we just dealing with touchy feely stuff emotions here? Should research into adverse effects from vaccination be conducted? Sure. I'm sure there are interesting things to be learned from it. But do serious symptoms arising from covid vaccinations invalidate those vaccinations. That can only be evaluated from a statistical analysis of results. And you repeatedly ignore those results which overwhelmingly show that covid vaccinations have saved hundreds of thousands of lives.

The last sentence is clear enough, thanks. Here is my answer to your question:

 

Being vaccinated against covid is safer than not being vaccinated against covid. Is not being vaccinated against covid safe?

All the people I know who are still getting Covid and a plethora of other ailments have been jabbed several times. The unjabbed (such as myself) are doing absolutely fine.

 

Reality can only be twisted to a certain extent.

[placeholder]

9 minutes ago, rattlesnake said:

The last sentence is clear enough, thanks. Here is my answer to your question:

 

Being vaccinated against covid is safer than not being vaccinated against covid. Is not being vaccinated against covid safe?

All the people I know who are still getting Covid and a plethora of other ailments have been jabbed several times. The unjabbed (such as myself) are doing absolutely fine.

 

Reality can only be twisted to a certain extent.

And this in your mind is how to do epidemiology? It is to laugh.

[placeholder]

21 minutes ago, rattlesnake said:

Over the past 15 months we have debated this extensively, my objections and opinions have repeatedly been made very clear and substantiated as much as possible withing the restrictions of this forum. My time is too precious to replicate what is already done.

Clarity is very important in communication, sometimes a four-word sentence says more than an intricate paragraph, which is why I occasionally ask you (and the 3-4 other members who still vehemently defend the Covid vaccinations) to take an unambiguous stance on the matter, just to see if there has been an evolution (in your case there obviously hasn't).

Has it ever occurred to you that not everyone follows your contributions closely or at all? And if the best you can currently do is to claim that what you've said in the past is an adequate or intellectually respectable reply, then you really have no claim at all to asking for replies from others. What are you even doing here if you won't explain your positions? 

[rattlesnake]

5 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Has it ever occurred to you that not everyone follows your contributions closely or at all? And if the best you can currently do is to claim that what you've said in the past is an adequate or intellectually respectable reply, then you really have no claim at all to asking for replies from others. What are you even doing here if you won't explain your positions? 

I am referring to debates you and I have had. I remember clearly what you have said in the past and am not asking you to reiterate, I assumed it was reciprocal but maybe I am placing the bar a little high. Why are you asking me to repeat what I have already told you twice this year? Or do you have short-term memory?

[still kicking]

21 hours ago, ozimoron said:

I'm still alive after 4 jabs and a dose of covid. That's all I need to know.

I had 4 jabs and a flu shot in 1 year never had covid yet and never the flu ever just ignore the troll

[placeholder]

6 hours ago, rattlesnake said:

I am referring to debates you and I have had. I remember clearly what you have said in the past and am not asking you to reiterate, I assumed it was reciprocal but maybe I am placing the bar a little high. Why are you asking me to repeat what I have already told you twice this year? Or do you have short-term memory?

Given the number of posts I have made re:covid, and the number of denialists such as yourself that I have contended with, you really think that it's rational for me to remember not only what was said, but who said it? Get over yourself. Or start rhyming your comments. At least thay way there will be something especially memorable about them.

[Bkk Brian]

8 hours ago, rattlesnake said:

I don't wish to start debating or exchanging links at this stage, I just want clarity. Here is my opinion, expressed clearly:

1. The Covid vaccine is not safe.

2. The adverse reactions to the Covid vaccine are very concerning.

 

You've answered question 1, now please answer question 2:

Are the adverse reactions to the Covid vaccines a cause for concern?

Since when are you in a position to ask me further questions when you've not provided evidence of your initial claims? This is not a schoolyard rant here. If you want to make specific claims they need to be backed up with credible sources.  Most medications and most vaccines have adverse reactions in rare cases, its the risk/benefit ratio that counts. 

 

The benefits for covid vaccines far outweigh the risks for the vast majority of people. That is my claim and those links have been provided. You don't believe me. You claim they are not safe.

 

As per the forum rules in this section any claims you make:

"Any alleged factual claims must be supported by a valid link to an approved credible source."

I'll wait with baited breath............

[rattlesnake]

6 hours ago, placeholder said:

Given the number of posts I have made re:covid, and the number of denialists such as yourself that I have contended with, you really think that it's rational for me to remember not only what was said, but who said it? Get over yourself. Or start rhyming your comments. At least thay way there will be something especially memorable about them.

I never have the same debate twice, with you or anyone else. Even when dealing with people whose significance to me is virtually nil, I still remember the gist of what was said going forward.

 

You were attemptig to initiate a debate we'd already had this year. The fact that you don't actually remember what other people tell you does explain the striking redundancy of your interventions, though.