English language ability and the Thai professional class

[BananaBandit]

A number of my inlaws are former grade school teachers. They don't speak any English (not that there's anything wrong with that!). 

 

I do wonder, though, if it's possible at this point for Thai university instructors, lawyers, docs, etc., to have basically no English proficiency.   I would expect, of course, for a clinical psychologist in Bangkok or a urologist in Pattaya to be fluent.   But what about a general practitioner deep in water buffalo country?  Is someone like that also overwhelmingly likely to have significant English speaking proficiency and literacy?

[BananaStrong]

8 years, met TWO fluent English speakers born in Thailand.   I've talked with about 30 doctors in hospitals, and some have told me their English is "advanced."  It was equivalent to a 5-year old.  I would guess there is a 90% chance any urologist you meet will have only a very, very basic understanding of English.  

 

Deep in water buffalo country?  99.99999999999999999999999999999999% almost zero, besides the same ridiculous phrases, etc.     

 

"significant".................yea, you are asking way too much.

 

Others will say I'm wrong, that's fine.  I've known about 300 Thai English "teachers," and not one was even remotely close to anything resembling a "significant" understand of the ABC's.  lol.  

[sidjameson]

I bet a higher percentage of Thai's can speak English than the western foreigners living in Thailand can speak Thai.

[Onerak]

I don't think speaking English is a requirements for most jobs. 

[KhunLA]

I think a few people need to get out more, and leave the prejudice at home.

[FriendlyFarang]

3 hours ago, BananaBandit said:

Is someone like that also overwhelmingly likely to have significant English speaking proficiency and literacy?

What is "significant"?

Let's take for example this scale: https://www.coe.int/en/web/common-european-framework-reference-languages/table-1-cefr-3.3-common-reference-levels-global-scale

I would call C1 or C2 "significant English speaking proficiency and literacy", but I think in my time in Thailand I can count the number of Thais who I've met and who achieved this level at one hand.

 

I would think on average doctors have better English skills than most Thais, but even when looking only at doctors it's very rare to find somebody who is in the C levels. Most are somewhere at B1/B2, but don't be surprised to encounter doctors who are at A2.

 

I would put my Thai skill at B2, with deficits in literacy. When I talk with doctors we basically always talk Thai, because my Thai is better than their English.

[OneMoreFarang]

Do they use their English?

I also learned Latin and Frensh in school. I don't remember much of that. If people don't use their skills then after a while there are no skills anymore.

 

And if these Thais are higher up on the social ladder, do they want to be heard using broken English? If you talk i.e. with a lawyer and he uses broken English (because he was never that good and he forgot 80%), what do you think? Do you think he at least tries and that is great? Or is it more likely that when you hear some stumbled English that you think: He sounds stupid, he must be stupid, I am not going to hire that stupid guy.

Sometimes it's better to pretend to not talk a foreign language at all instead of: My fried you, how is she?

[KhunLA]

6 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

Do they use their English?

I also learned Latin and Frensh in school. I don't remember much of that. If people don't use their skills then after a while there are no skills anymore.

 

And if these Thais are higher up on the social ladder, do they want to be heard using broken English? If you talk i.e. with a lawyer and he uses broken English (because he was never that good and he forgot 80%), what do you think? Do you think he at least tries and that is great? Or is it more likely that when you hear some stumbled English that you think: He sounds stupid, he must be stupid, I am not going to hire that stupid guy.

Sometimes it's better to pretend to not talk a foreign language at all instead of: My fried you, how is she?

Also learned Latin & French, and the French didn't take too well, but was fluent in Spanish, and don't remember much from 50 yrs ago.  Barely follow along when they speak Spanish in movies.   

 

Wife & kid are fluent in 3 languages.  I don't know anyone in my peer group, (USA) fluent in 2.

 

Most don't need English here, doesn't mean they couldn't get by in an English speaking country, as I can here with my limited Thai.  Unless involved with international commerce, English is useless to them and Chinese is actually more important. 

Edited December 24, 2022 by KhunLA

[Scouse123]

A lot of Thai people can speak English and make themselves understood better than they realize.

 

It is that deep sense of worrying about making a mistake that makes them withdraw into their shells.

 

After nearly ten years my friends, (husband and wife team), at the local Mom and Pop shop will ask me many things and the meanings of them from Thai to English.....but it took ten years for them to get to know me and pluck up courage to ask these questions!

 

I myself, would laugh at my own speech or grammatical errors whilst learning Thai and still do occasionally, but they tend to think they look foolish or have something to be ashamed about, when they obviously don't.

[it is what it is]

 

most of my thai friends are professionals who have studied abroad either to bachelor or master degree level, in their second or third language i might add. the standard of english they speak, even though many do not use the language on a daily basis, is generally very good.

 

i feel most foreigners in thailand tend to hang out with lower class, uneducated thais and judge all thais by this experience. they are lacking an understanding and experience of the 'real' thauland, and missing a great opportunity to meet and know some great people.

[BritManToo]

15 minutes ago, it is what it is said:

i feel most foreigners in thailand tend to hang out with lower class, uneducated thais and judge all thais by this experience.

Why would you expect foreigners to hang out with people outside their social levels?

Most of the foreigners I encounter were postmen/builders/tradesmen/etc.

 

Met a cute Japanese girl in Siem Reap, she was a waitress in a bakery shop back home, her English was good.

 

Being educated is not the norm, wherever or whoever you are in the world.

Edited December 24, 2022 by BritManToo

[sqwakvfr]

If you monitor Air Traffic Control frequencies in Thailand most of the controllers and pilots speak very good English.  Every other place in LOS has been a mixed bag.  I have to constantly remind myself to speak  English like as if I was back in elementary school to make my point.  I have pretty given much given on speaking Thail to most because I can't pronounce most words with the right tonal inflection.  I have had a lot of misunderstandings.  My expectations are Thailand will never achieve English proficiencies like other countries in Asia.  There is nothing wrong about that because each country sets what priorities are important for their own interests.  In LOS English proficiency is not a priority.  If I want to go to an English proficient country then I go to Singapore or even Malaysia.

[sqwakvfr]

Just now, BritManToo said:

Why would you expect foreigners to hang out with people outside their social levels?

Most of the foreigners I encounter were postmen/builders/tradesmen/etc.

Or retired Police Officer? 

[sqwakvfr]

12 minutes ago, it is what it is said:

 

most of my thai friends are professionals who have studied abroad either to bachelor or master degree level, in their second or third language i might add. the standard of english they speak, even though many do not use the language on a daily basis, is generally very good.

 

i feel most foreigners in thailand tend to hang out with lower class, uneducated thais and judge all thais by this experience. they are lacking an understanding and experience of the 'real' thauland, and missing a great opportunity to meet and know some great people.

Excellent point. 

[BangkokReady]

25 minutes ago, it is what it is said:

i feel most foreigners in thailand tend to hang out with lower class, uneducated thais and judge all thais by this experience. they are lacking an understanding and experience of the 'real' thauland, and missing a great opportunity to meet and know some great people.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but it's those who are only hanging around high-class educated Thais who are in fact not experiencing the "real" Thailand.  They experience a very nice "ideal" version of Thailand, but given that that is a minority version, it cannot really be claimed to be the "real" one.

[BangkokReady]

20 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

Being educated is not the norm, wherever or whoever you are in the world.

No, no.  The elite highly educated Thais represent the "real Thailand".  The unwashed masses do not. /s ????

[seajae]

our daughter was quite fluent in english before she went to university to study to be a doctor, now after 4 years at uni she just speaks thai all the time and rarely english and when she does I can barely understand her. Being a doctor you would think being able to speak english would be fairly important but it would appear that for some reason the uni has made english a non event

[BananaStrong]

I only hang out with Thais making 100k a month.  Yes, that is about 0.0001 of the population.   I came here for the weather and to relax, not wonder about calculus and existentialism while mapping out non-Euclidean graphs of dark matter.   The language in Thailand is money.   English means bank.   Learn English to get rich, then retire and dabble ina few Krap krap sawastee (transliteration at its worst).   My Thai is intermediate, but only out of boredom, not necessary.   

[brianthainess]

I'm still trying to work out what an immigration officer once asked "what is the English for pass-er-polt'' ????

[GreasyFingers]

Up here in this part of buffalo country the professionals like doctors, pharmacists and even the kids of the wealthy who have degrees from English speaking universities (but are now just salesmen in their parents' stores) have basic, but limited, English skills. But it must be difficult for them as they do not use it on a daily basis and as others have said it is easy to forget a second language if not using it.

As for expats that speak/understand Thai it is much easier for them as it there for the most part of every day.

[Scouse123]

30 minutes ago, brianthainess said:

I'm still trying to work out what an immigration officer once asked "what is the English for pass-er-polt'' ????

It's Pass-a- port.????  

 

OR.

 

Phaat F bpaawd L

Edited December 24, 2022 by Scouse123

[TKDfella]

It probably depends on where they are educated or how much exposure to English they get. A couple of the older generation that I know that speak English very well, were exposed by working with Americans during campaigns or projects...both were engineers. My dentist is not bad but then he also had experience abroad.

[VocalNeal]

12 hours ago, BananaBandit said:

I would expect, of course, for a clinical psychologist in Bangkok or a urologist in Pattaya to be fluent.

Why? Would you expect a Chinese clinical psychologist to speak English.

[Scouse123]

15 minutes ago, GreasyFingers said:

Up here in this part of buffalo country the professionals like doctors, pharmacists and even the kids of the wealthy who have degrees from English speaking universities (but are now just salesmen in their parents' stores) have basic, but limited, English skills. But it must be difficult for them as they do not use it on a daily basis and as others have said it is easy to forget a second language if not using it.

As for expats that speak/understand Thai it is much easier for them as it there for the most part of every day.

Spot on!

 

I speak Thai regularly and daily because they either don't speak or don't want to speak English, with a few exceptions. Fortunately, languages interest me.

 

I studied forced French at Grammar school and have nearly forgotten it all.

 

I paid privately to learn Spanish, and that's another language fallen by the wayside due to not using it daily. I think it would take me 3-6 months to get back into the language.

[BangkokReady]

10 hours ago, sidjameson said:

I bet a higher percentage of Thai's can speak English than the western foreigners living in Thailand can speak Thai.

As they should, given the vast differences between the exposure to and importance of the languages in the lives of each group.

 

Thais study English from kindergarten/primary school and it can make a real difference to them throughout their entire education/careers/lives.  Foreigners don't typically encounter Thai until they choose to retire to Thailand and can generally make do without it. ????‍♂️

[scorecard]

2 hours ago, KhunLA said:

Also learned Latin & French, and the French didn't take too well, but was fluent in Spanish, and don't remember much from 50 yrs ago.  Barely follow along when they speak Spanish in movies.   

 

Wife & kid are fluent in 3 languages.  I don't know anyone in my peer group, (USA) fluent in 2.

 

Most don't need English here, doesn't mean they couldn't get by in an English speaking country, as I can here with my limited Thai.  Unless involved with international commerce, English is useless to them and Chinese is actually more important. 

Well yes and no and complicated. Many many Chinese business people speak good English and overall the numbers of Chinese locals who speak good/advanved English is growing rapidly.

 

I worked in and out of China regularly, several cities until recently. 

 

My experience was to ask high school kids where to find a product, an address, a specific hotel/restaurant and more, and most times the HS kids had quite good English and no hesitation to engage in conversations with foreigners, always polite and keen to help. 

 

One time in Shanghai I got a little lost. I stopped 4 HS kids (2M, 2F), showed them the hotel card (5 star hotel).

They all instantly said 'only 10 minutes from here down some small streets, come we will take you.'

 

Sure enoght 5 minutes later at the hotel. One of the boys asked if they come come inside the hotel for a minute.

I took them all into the lobby and sat them down and explained 'don't run around etc., and they listened. They expected no tips or anything. I bought them all a fresh orange juice, then some ham sandwiches. All completed in 10 minutes and they thanked me and on their way. One of the hs boys politely asked the bell boy if he could speak English. The smiling young man responded, 'I can speak English and German, can I help you? 

[NoshowJones]

12 hours ago, sidjameson said:

I bet a higher percentage of Thai's can speak English than the western foreigners living in Thailand can speak Thai.

That figures, if the Thai language was not full of these stupid tones, my Thai would be fluent long before now.

[NoshowJones]

3 hours ago, sqwakvfr said:

Or retired Police Officer? 

Or retired Musician, or Private Investigator. I was longer at them than any other job.

[NoshowJones]

3 hours ago, seajae said:

our daughter was quite fluent in english before she went to university to study to be a doctor, now after 4 years at uni she just speaks thai all the time and rarely english and when she does I can barely understand her. Being a doctor you would think being able to speak english would be fairly important but it would appear that for some reason the uni has made english a non event

My wife was in full time education until she was 22 years old, college, university. When I met her she did not know any English at all, even now after 15 years her English is still suspect.

[BananaBandit]

2 hours ago, VocalNeal said:

Why? Would you expect a Chinese clinical psychologist to speak English.

I don't know for sure.  But I would assume an advanced degree professional in a world-class city like Bangkok would have some English proficiency.  Also, someone like a clinical psychologist would likely have significant experience with research articles and other such materials that often appear exclusively in English.