Brexit has cracked Britain’s economic foundations

[RayC]

On 12/26/2022 at 1:40 PM, billd766 said:

So was I but my problem then and still is now is who determines what is the truth.

 

We had a referendum back in 1972 about joining the Common Market which is what it actually was back then.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accession_of_the_United_Kingdom_to_the_European_Communities

 

The Treaty of Accession 1972, which brought the United Kingdom into the European Communities, had already been met with opposition in the Parliament of the United Kingdom, notably from Labour's Peter Shore, who was Shadow Leader of the House of Commons at the time. He said:

"This is a treaty which carries the most formidable and far-reaching obligations. It is a treaty—the first in our history—which would deprive the British Parliament and people of democratic rights which they have exercised for many centuries. I can think of no treaty, to cite only one characteristic of the Rome Treaty, in which the British Parliament agree that the power to tax the British people should be handed over to another group, or countries, or people outside this country, and that they should have the right in perpetuity to levy taxes upon us and decide how the revenues of those taxes should be spent."[11]

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Economic_Community

 

This is what the UK signed up to join, making the UK the 7th member.

 

The Community's initial aim was to bring about economic integration, including a common market and customs union, among its six founding members: Belgium, France, Italy, Luxembourg, the Netherlands and West Germany. It gained a common set of institutions along with the European Coal and Steel Community (ECSC) and the European Atomic Energy Community (EURATOM) as one of the European Communities under the 1965 Merger Treaty (Treaty of Brussels). 

 

 This is where the EU is today or at least at the time of the article.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union

 

After the creation by six states, 22 other states joined the union in 1973–2013. The United Kingdom became the only member state to leave the EU in 2020,[22] ten countries are aspiring or negotiating to join it.

 

IMHO it has become too big and too unwieldy, plus it is too costly for the richer nations supporting the poorer nation to sustain for ever. There are far too many bureaucrats and far too many opportunities for corruption as has been seen in the international news lately. 

 

Running the EU must be a bit like herding cats in the direction that YOU want them to go and they don't. 

 

As a Common Market which is what it was it worked very well, but as the Behemoth it has morphed into, it doesn't work that well at all.

 

Whilst I admit that the EU does have many good things going for it, I personally feel that it is too big for its boots.

 

One of its greatest failures, again IMHO, is illegal immigration which is out of all proportion to its original intent, where some countries in the EU refuse access to the illegals, even to the extent of barricading their countries from their neighbours, other countries refusing to allow the illegals to even land there, and yet other countries allowing the illegals (and in some countries aiding them) to go to 3rd and 4th countries.

I think that you raise some interesting points.

 

Imo the growth in the bureaucratic nature of the EEC/ EU was (is?) an inevitable and unavoidable consequence of greater globalization. 

 

An example: I don't know this for a fact but I would suggest that a car, which was manufactured in Germany in 1972, was comprised of +/-2,000 components, which were themselves mainly sourced and manufactured in Germany.  A car manufactured today apparently typically has 30,000 components sourced from all over the world. As a consequence of these changes, if the EU single market was/ is to work efficiently and equitably, then there must be rules and regulations governing the sourcing, quality, etc of those components. This example is for just one product: The EU bureaucracy had to grow; there was no alternative.

 

Whether the membership of the EU should have increased so rapidly is another matter and I have some empathy with the view that it did/ has grown so quickly, especially given that this growth in membership happened so soon after the Euro came into being.

 

Illegal immigration is still a problem in Europe so, by that measure, the EU as an organisation has failed. However, is it possible for it to succeed especially, as you point out, there are so many different views and policies among the member states?

[RayC]

6 minutes ago, Jumbo1968 said:

I would say it was exploitation of the EU workers,

I disagree. Eastern European workers were not 'press ganged' into coming to the UK. On the whole, they came for the simple reason that their earnings were higher in the UK than their homelands.

 

6 minutes ago, Jumbo1968 said:

the worst thing that was introduced in the U.K. was the minimum wage, employers know that’s all they legally have to pay to anyone. 
 

That might have been the effect. Perhaps the rate was set too low?

[BangkokReady]

On 12/26/2022 at 7:58 AM, poppysdad said:

Why should huge amounts ofBritish taxpayers money be given to the citizens of other countries who flock to our shores because the benefits are greater here than in their own countries.

Even if that was true, surely the fact that we have less money out of the EU than we did in it answers that question?

[Chomper Higgot]

16 minutes ago, BangkokReady said:

Even if that was true, surely the fact that we have less money out of the EU than we did in it answers that question?

Now deduct the lost trade and revenue that has arisen by leaving the EU.

[billd766]

12 minutes ago, BangkokReady said:

Even if that was true, surely the fact that we have less money out of the EU than we did in it answers that question?

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-7886/

 

It is far too big to download here.

 

https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/

 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/316888/uk-eu-transactions/

 

This is just a selection of the 4,430,000,000 results (0.55 seconds) 

 

I am sure that in those results there are ample examples for both Brexiteers and Remainers to each say "I told you so back in 20.."

[Jumbo1968]

33 minutes ago, RayC said:

I disagree. Eastern European workers were not 'press ganged' into coming to the UK. On the whole, they came for the simple reason that their earnings were higher in the UK than their homelands.

 

That might have been the effect. Perhaps the rate was set too low?

No not press ganged but used as cheap labour, the good point was their home countries had to increase their salaries in-line with the U.K. salaries because they themselves started to suffer from labour shortages.

[placeholder]

8 minutes ago, Jumbo1968 said:

No not press ganged but used as cheap labour, the good point was their home countries had to increase their salaries in-line with the U.K. salaries because they themselves started to suffer from labour shortages.

And maybe if the UK offered a minimum wage that was also a decent wage, they might have stayed in the UK.

[RayC]

36 minutes ago, Jumbo1968 said:

No not press ganged but used as cheap labour, the good point was their home countries had to increase their salaries in-line with the U.K. salaries because they themselves started to suffer from labour shortages.

An excellent description of how the market works. 

[Jumbo1968]

33 minutes ago, placeholder said:

And maybe if the UK offered a minimum wage that was also a decent wage, they might have stayed in the UK.

The biggest problem with the benefits system in the U.K. is 40% of people on benefits actually work, they work the minimum number of hours required to receive benefits but the employers also exploit the situation because they pay little or no tax or N.I to the government for part time workers. 
I am not sure if imported EU labour are entitled to similar benefits ?

[vinny41]

7 minutes ago, Jumbo1968 said:

The biggest problem with the benefits system in the U.K. is 40% of people on benefits actually work, they work the minimum number of hours required to receive benefits but the employers also exploit the situation because they pay little or no tax or N.I to the government for part time workers. 
I am not sure if imported EU labour are entitled to similar benefits ?

You should see the figures for Child Benefit and Child Tax Credit awards in respect of children resident in other EEA countries
Child Benefit claims under EC Regulation 883/2004 in respect of children living in another EEA member state (or Switzerland)

It was like Brucie Bonus 

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn06561/#fullreport

as we can see in 2009 75% of all Child Benefit and Child Tax Credit awards in respect of children resident in other EEA countries were paid to Poland

In years 2010-2013 the combined other 26 EU countries was nothing compared to what Poland received

[Mac Mickmanus]

1 minute ago, vinny41 said:

You should see the figures for Child Benefit and Child Tax Credit awards in respect of children resident in other EEA countries
Child Benefit claims under EC Regulation 883/2004 in respect of children living in another EEA member state (or Switzerland)

It was like Brucie Bonus 

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn06561/#fullreport

as we can see in 2009 75% of all Child Benefit and Child Tax Credit awards in respect of children resident in other EEA countries were paid to Poland

In years 2010-2013 the combined other 26 EU countries was nothing compared to what Poland received

I have actually spoken to Polish people working in the U.K and claiming child support for a child living in Poland and their  reasoning was that they work in the UK and pay UK taxes and they are entitled to claim those child benefits

[RayC]

1 hour ago, billd766 said:

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-7886/

 

It is far too big to download here.

 

https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/

 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/316888/uk-eu-transactions/

 

This is just a selection of the 4,430,000,000 results (0.55 seconds) 

 

I am sure that in those results there are ample examples for both Brexiteers and Remainers to each say "I told you so back in 20.."

I fear my limited lifespan may prevent me from checking all 4,430,000,000 results but I doubt many will show a positive opportunity cost for Brexit.

 

Even the most generous estimate of Brexit 'savings' (Johnson's £19bn/year) is dwarfed by the cost in lost output, £100bn/year (FT estimate).

[Jumbo1968]

1 minute ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

I have actually spoken to Polish people working in the U.K and claiming child support for a child living in Poland and their  reasoning was that they work in the UK and pay UK taxes and they are entitled to claim those child benefits

We were ‘stuck’ in the U.K. for 18 months due to Covid travel restrictions on movement, our son attended a U.K. school and I applied and received Child Benefit which I immediately cancelled on our return to Thailand.

The problem with the benefits system is they do not have enough staff to chase fraudsters and I am sure the people from Poland are not entitled to Child Benefit as their child is not resident in the U.K..

[RayC]

13 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

I have actually spoken to Polish people working in the U.K and claiming child support for a child living in Poland and their  reasoning was that they work in the UK and pay UK taxes and they are entitled to claim those child benefits

Seems like a perfectly rational argument (assuming it's legal).

 

Postscript: Jumbo1968 says that this is now illegal post-Brexit?

[Mac Mickmanus]

27 minutes ago, Jumbo1968 said:

We were ‘stuck’ in the U.K. for 18 months due to Covid travel restrictions on movement, our son attended a U.K. school and I applied and received Child Benefit which I immediately cancelled on our return to Thailand.

The problem with the benefits system is they do not have enough staff to chase fraudsters and I am sure the people from Poland are not entitled to Child Benefit as their child is not resident in the U.K..

This was a few years ago pre Brexit and I do believe everything was above board and legal back then and E.U citizens could legally receive child benefits if their child lived in other E.U Countries and they paid U.K taxes , although  that wouldn't apply to people/child living in Thailand .

   But they were paying UK taxes and that entitled them to child benefit

[dunroaming]

22 hours ago, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

The <deleted> are the people who deny what is actually beginning to happen, it was delayed for a couple of years by something that got in the way. Maybe you never noticed the pandemic because you were standing on your head in a bucket of sand, or worse, reading The Guardian.

PS. I love how "brexiteers" is allowed but not the nickname for stay voters.

Well I would be interested to know what "is beginning to happen".  Are you referring to the recession?  To the fact that we cannot fill the thousands of jobs in the NHS? The continuing reliance on food banks?  Or maybe the government asking retired people to go back to work to sure up the dire labour shortages?  Or maybe inflation?  Turns out that "project fear" has become "project reality".

 

There is certainly no shortage of options for "beginning to happen" although many of these things have been coming for quite a while.  Are the <deleted> still moaning?  Absolutely! But with very good reason...

[Mac Mickmanus]

34 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

 The continuing reliance on food banks? 

In relation to this thread title , UK food banks have been gaining in popularity for the last 15 years , they have been getting more popular and usage  every year for 15 years , actually, last year was the first year that there has been a decrease in their popularity/usage .

   How does that fit in with the thread title ?

[nauseus]

5 hours ago, RayC said:

No one likes their income to be cut but isn't the example you describe simply an example of how a market economy works? Whether that is a good thing is another matter.

 

Brexit might solve the problem of wage deflation within the UK construction industry, but unless the concept of 'Global Britain' - which was a promised benefit of Brexit - is shelved it will be probably be transferred to another industry.

 

Let's be optimistic and assume a free trade deal is done with India. The UK market will then be open to Indian IT companies who will undercut the rate paid to UK workers.

 

Unless the UK becomes more insular, more protectionist and more command economy orientated, the market will dictate what is 'fair value'. Brexit has not changed that.

Plenty of UK companies outsourced tele marketing jobs to India years ago. Big fail! Banks and credit card firms lost both bags of revenue and clients. 

[Mac Mickmanus]

1 hour ago, dunroaming said:

  Or maybe the government asking retired people to go back to work to sure up the dire labour shortages? 

It needs to be pointed out that the government is considering bringing back people who took early retirement , back into the workforce , those who took early retirement at 50 years old , its the people aged between 50 and 65 who are being encouraged to get back into the workforce , rather than those in retirement age , 65 years old +

[nauseus]

4 hours ago, Jumbo1968 said:

I would say it was exploitation of the EU workers, the worst thing that was introduced in the U.K. was the minimum wage, employers know that’s all they legally have to pay to anyone. 
 

Yet EU workers came in droves, happy to accept this dastardly treatment. Why? Well, perhaps it was because they were making triple the money they could make at home - often more.

 

This is the EU in action, driven by the lobbyists of the "global" corporations as another way to secure cheap labour, where they want it, which enables huge profits. This is a main reason for the EU to encourage smaller, poorer, eastern European countries into this club, even though the Euro does not suit most of them at all, economically. The EU "pillar" of free movement of people and services is not much about benefit to individuals, in fact it has damaged many of them. especially in the UK. 

 

What happens when they run out of new sources of cheap workers, I wonder??? 

[nauseus]

4 hours ago, Jumbo1968 said:

No not press ganged but used as cheap labour, the good point was their home countries had to increase their salaries in-line with the U.K. salaries because they themselves started to suffer from labour shortages.

I don't think so.

[cleopatra2]

1 hour ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

In relation to this thread title , UK food banks have been gaining in popularity for the last 15 years , they have been getting more popular and usage  every year for 15 years , actually, last year was the first year that there has been a decrease in their popularity/usage .

   How does that fit in with the thread title ?

Food bank use in 2008/2009     26, 000

food bank use in 2021/22          2.1 million

 

from the Trussell trust ,

 

[placeholder]

15 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Yet EU workers came in droves, happy to accept this dastardly treatment. Why? Well, perhaps it was because they were making triple the money they could make at home - often more.

 

This is the EU in action, driven by the lobbyists of the "global" corporations as another way to secure cheap labour, where they want it, which enables huge profits. This is a main reason for the EU to encourage smaller, poorer, eastern European countries into this club, even though the Euro does not suit most of them at all, economically. The EU "pillar" of free movement of people and services is not much about benefit to individuals, in fact it has damaged many of them. especially in the UK. 

 

What happens when they run out of new sources of cheap workers, I wonder??? 

Right. The UK is renowned for its protection of workers' right and the conservatives have made that the linchpin in their program. They're just keeping it a secret for now.

[RayC]

45 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Plenty of UK companies outsourced tele marketing jobs to India years ago. Big fail! Banks and credit card firms lost both bags of revenue and clients. 

That's as maybe but plenty remain (HSBC for one): The IT industry covers a multitude of disciplines, many of which are not customer facing. Of course, no way of knowing, but I'd wager on a net transfer of jobs out of the UK.

 

In any event, it's all hypothetical. There is no sign of a trade deal being done with a large nation any time soon.

[Mac Mickmanus]

6 minutes ago, cleopatra2 said:

Food bank use in 2008/2009     26, 000

food bank use in 2021/22          2.1 million

 

from the Trussell trust ,

 

Yes ,  food banks have steadily been growing in popularity since 2008 , and it was 2.5 million the previous year 2020/21 and down to 2,1 million last year, and BTW, those figures are for individual food packages handed out for three days worth of food , so its not 2.1 Million people its 2.1 million food packages , so its more like 200 000 people getting regular food packages 

[ozimoron]

Conservative overreach around the English speaking world is leading to a disaster for conservative run countries and will doom conservative parties into irrelevance.

 

Australia led the way, removing a climate change denying government which had also mishandled the covid vaccine rollout. The UK and the US are facing the same issues where excessive corporatisation of the economy is creating greater economic disparities between the rich and poor. Voters want action to restore egalitarianism and fight climate change. The ideologues, funded by big business to protect their own interests are finally starting to face the music. The propaganda isn't working anymore.

[vinny41]

7 hours ago, Jumbo1968 said:

No not press ganged but used as cheap labour, the good point was their home countries had to increase their salaries in-line with the U.K. salaries because they themselves started to suffer from labour shortages.

Some of those EU countries did try Option A 1st before they were caught out

Option A was employing North Korean Slaves

North Korean forced labourers in the EU

https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/E-8-2017-006243_EN.html

North Korea sends 'state-sponsored slaves' to Europe - rights group

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-northkorea-eu-slavery-idUKKCN0ZM1G5

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, ozimoron said:

Conservative overreach around the English speaking world is leading to a disaster for conservative run countries and will doom conservative parties into irrelevance.

 

Australia led the way, removing a climate change denying government which had also mishandled the covid vaccine rollout. The UK and the US are facing the same issues where excessive corporatisation of the economy is creating greater economic disparities between the rich and poor. Voters want action to restore egalitarianism and fight climate change. The ideologues, funded by big business to protect their own interests are finally starting to face the music. The propaganda isn't working anymore.

 Your propaganda isn't working either.

[ozimoron]

Just now, nauseus said:

 Your propaganda isn't working either.

Polls and election results are pointing to exactly as I claim. The cons are on the nose big time in the UK.

[Mac Mickmanus]

5 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

Polls and election results are pointing to exactly as I claim. The cons are on the nose big time in the UK.

Conservatives/Sunak are gaining in popularity in the opinion polls , whilst Labour are indeed still in the lead in the pools , Sunak is gaining ground