Antony Blinken in Jerusalem: Urgent steps needed for calm

[candide]

1 hour ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

4000 years ago Abraham moved to the land of Israel from Iraq and he had some Children there and his Grandsons were the 12 tribes of Israel  , all born in Israel 4000 odd years ago  .

  So the 12 tribes of Israel didn't march in from anywhere , they were born there and that's where Judaism/Jews originates from , Israel

Ahem! It's a bit more complex than that as the Bible is a religious book and not an history book. 

 

Let's be clear: I am not saying that Jews were not in Israel at that time. I am just recalling that, as all religious books, the Bible may have only a remote relation to the historical reality. 

[Mac Mickmanus]

5 minutes ago, candide said:

Ahem! It's a bit more complex than that as the Bible is a religious book and not an history book. 

 

Let's be clear: I am not saying that Jews were not in Israel at that time. I am just recalling that, as all religious books, the Bible may have only a remote relation to the historical reality. 

No,  the Bible was written 2000 years later , 2000 years after Jews had been living in Israel .

   That's the same as a  person writing a book today about Jesus being born , same time span, 2000 years time difference

[candide]

41 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

No,  the Bible was written 2000 years later , 2000 years after Jews had been living in Israel .

   That's the same as a  person writing a book today about Jesus being born , same time span, 2000 years time difference

No what? Are you claiming that the Bible accurately describes the historical reality, and that historians confirm this claim?

[Mac Mickmanus]

8 minutes ago, candide said:

No what? Are you claiming that the Bible accurately describes the historical reality, and that historians confirm this claim?

No, quite the opposite actually 

Jews arrived in Israel 4000 years ago and the Bible was written 2000 years later , that is why the Bible isn't reliable when mentioning Jews arriving in Israel .

   

[candide]

28 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

No, quite the opposite actually 

Jews arrived in Israel 4000 years ago and the Bible was written 2000 years later , that is why the Bible isn't reliable when mentioning Jews arriving in Israel .

   

Ok

[thaibeachlovers]

On 1/31/2023 at 9:03 AM, Scott said:

Speaking in Jerusalem, Mr Blinken reiterated US support for a two-state solution as "the best way" to bring security to the two sides.

LOL. In reality there is no such solution, as there is no land left on which to have a Palestinian "state".

Blinken's visit was, IMO and that of many, a waste of time, and resulted in the usual words of no meaning.

As a result of his visit nothing will get better for the Palestinians, and the Israelis will be encouraged in that they will continue to get cover from the US to carry on with illegal settlements in the illegally occupied territories.

 

[thaibeachlovers]

15 hours ago, Hanaguma said:

Doesnt matter what they want.  They cannot and will not get it. Now if only Syria or Egypt or Saudi Arabia would give up just a tiny slice of their territory for the Palestinians to have as their own... 

Why should they? The Palestinians were given a tiny slice of their historical land to continue to live on by the UN resolution that created modern Israel. That land is illegally occupied by Israel.

Why doesn't your country give up a tiny slice of it's land for them?

[Mac Mickmanus]

1 minute ago, thaibeachlovers said:

 

Why doesn't your country give up a tiny slice of it's land for them?

They would reject it 

[thaibeachlovers]

17 hours ago, Hanaguma said:

Try being Jewish or LGBT in Egypt or Saudi Arabia!

Deflection. The topic isn't about Egypt or Saudi. Might as well say the same for any Muslim country in the planet.

[Purdey]

22 hours ago, Hanaguma said:

the "who was there first" argument is a non starter.

Israel was founded by the British to give a home to post-Holocaust European Jews at the end of the war. "Israel"was effectively carved out of land that was inhabited mainly by Arabs. You can ignore their historical claim as the area had shifting conquerors over thousands of years. However, Palestinians were the population when the area was given to form Israel. 

[Purdey]

21 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

The Palestinian  leadership want a hard-line Iranian style Islamic state  Country under Sharia law and if they were to become the majority in Israel, Jews may have to leave Israel again due to persecution , as they did have to leave Iran and various other Countries  in the past

And somehow that is a reason for not returning their land?

Things change all the time. 

[Jingthing]

11 minutes ago, Purdey said:

And somehow that is a reason for not returning their land?

Things change all the time. 

What land?

[Jingthing]

28 minutes ago, Purdey said:

Israel was founded by the British to give a home to post-Holocaust European Jews at the end of the war. "Israel"was effectively carved out of land that was inhabited mainly by Arabs. You can ignore their historical claim as the area had shifting conquerors over thousands of years. However, Palestinians were the population when the area was given to form Israel. 

British mandate Palestine existed long before WW2. There never has been  an Arab nation state called Palestine. Early Zionist pioneers identified as Palestinians. Israel came into existence via the United Nations.

 

A bit of history for you about the British. Not how you painted them, huh?

 

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/quot-exodus-1947-quot-illegal-immigration-ship

Edited February 2, 2023 by Jingthing

[Hanaguma]

56 minutes ago, Purdey said:

Israel was founded by the British to give a home to post-Holocaust European Jews at the end of the war. "Israel"was effectively carved out of land that was inhabited mainly by Arabs. You can ignore their historical claim as the area had shifting conquerors over thousands of years. However, Palestinians were the population when the area was given to form Israel. 

People were there before Israel existed, and before the idea of a country called Palestine was even a fevered dream.   Historical claims are <deleted>, and the farther back in history you go the crappier they get.   

[Saanim]

18 hours ago, Hanaguma said:

Sorry, I am not getting what you mean. Could you clarify please?

Why you do not search a bit? There is a lot of to find: e.g.:

 

Journalist Helen Thomas, who said Jews ‘should get the hell out of Palestine,’ dies at 92

Veteran White House correspondent covered 10 presidents and was known for her fiery manner, but her career came to an end over anti-Israel remarks

https://www.timesofisrael.com/pioneering-and-controversial-journalist-helen-thomas-dies-at-92/

 

[Jingthing]

16 minutes ago, Saanim said:

Never any state Palestine? Perhaps not a state but a colony. Or colonies were not a state? Anyway, a country. 

Interesting, that the First Lady of Israel addressed a postcard to: "Palestine"...

 

From the history - and from whatever old literature you could read (but perhaps might not):  the Jews had emigrated - 100-50 years ago - from wherever - always to Palestine. Only years later after the WW2 - when it was managed by British - and not really in a very fair fashion - they have spoken about an Israel.    

Dude, I already said there was a BRITISH MANDATE OF PALESTINE.

It was not an Arab NATION STATE.

During it's existence Jews, Arabs, Muslims, and Christians, etc. refered to themselves as Palestinians.

That's why I think the specific Palestinian Arab identity was artificially invented (I think Arafat said as much).

There are a number of other Arab nation states in the world.

But only one Jewish one.

Apparently so many can't tolerate even ONE!

Edited February 2, 2023 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

6 minutes ago, Saanim said:

Why you do not search a bit? There is a lot of to find: e.g.:

 

Journalist Helen Thomas, who said Jews ‘should get the hell out of Palestine,’ dies at 92

Veteran White House correspondent covered 10 presidents and was known for her fiery manner, but her career came to an end over anti-Israel remarks

https://www.timesofisrael.com/pioneering-and-controversial-journalist-helen-thomas-dies-at-92/

 

How did she define Palestine? If she meant the internationally recognized borders of Israel, that comment was disgusting, I find its necessary for people to define exactly what they mean on such matters. Otherwise you don't know if they're "river to the sea" types.

[Jingthing]

On the topic of the artificial nature of Palestinian Arab identity.

Be clear  -- I am not suggesting the Arabs in the area shouldn't have rights whether Israeli citizens, Gazans, West bank Arabs, or the diaspora.

Only to clarify what we're dealing with here: POLITICS.

 

Yes, Palestinians Are an Invented People | RealClearWorld

[Jingthing]

11 minutes ago, Saanim said:

I do not know how did she define Palestine, herself being of Jewish roots.

But the Palestine was defined as other states at that time, whether "internationally recognized" or not. (BTW, what an international body should be involved in the "recognizing" at that time?)

 

 

   

That map is anti-Israel propaganda. It greatly distorts the reality. Of course I'm talking about modern Israel except all of the West Bank and Gaza. 

 

Helen Thomas (who I generally greatly admired) was an ARAB (Lebanese) AMERICAN, not a Jew.

 

Cheers.

Edited February 2, 2023 by Jingthing

[xylophone]

58 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

That map is anti-Israel propaganda. It greatly distorts the reality. Of course I'm talking about modern Israel except all of the West Bank and Gaza. 

 

Helen Thomas (who I generally greatly admired) was an ARAB (Lebanese) AMERICAN, not a Jew.

 

Cheers.

 

1 hour ago, Jingthing said:

That map is anti-Israel propaganda. It greatly distorts the reality. Of course I'm talking about modern Israel except all of the West Bank and Gaza. 

 

Helen Thomas (who I generally greatly admired) was an ARAB (Lebanese) AMERICAN, not a Jew.

 

Cheers.

I seem to recall seeing a map which showed Palestine as that which can be seen in the 1946 map, so I find it incredulous that Palestine has basically "ceased to exist" and is seen as "scattered remains" of what it once was!

I haven't followed the history, although I do remember reading about the 1947 partition plan, and I followed it (later on) and I also read an article to do with the "Orange Grove massacre" as it was called.

 

As a rider, I'm not in favour of Palestinian attacks on Israel, although I do believe they are out of desperation to let the world know that they are still being suppressed, and as for the continued building on occupied land, IMO that's a disgrace.

[Purdey]

2 hours ago, Hanaguma said:

People were there before Israel existed

Exactly. 

[Purdey]

2 hours ago, Jingthing said:

There never has been  an Arab nation state called Palestine

Correct. Same for Saudi Arabia and tribal regions. Same for native Americans, they didn't have borders or countries, ripe for stealing. 

Edited February 2, 2023 by Purdey

[Scott]

Off-topic, troll posts and replies removed.

 

[thaibeachlovers]

On 2/2/2023 at 5:22 PM, Hanaguma said:

People were there before Israel existed, and before the idea of a country called Palestine was even a fevered dream.   Historical claims are <deleted>, and the farther back in history you go the crappier they get.   

How about in 1930 then? Ruled by Britain and populated mainly by Palestinians.

[thaibeachlovers]

23 hours ago, Purdey said:

Exactly. 

Yes, and after the Muslims conquered the land from the Crusaders in around 700 AD the Jews were basically absent till after Britain took over from Turkey as the rulers in WW1.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 2/2/2023 at 5:22 PM, Hanaguma said:

People were there before Israel existed, and before the idea of a country called Palestine was even a fevered dream.   Historical claims are <deleted>, and the farther back in history you go the crappier they get.   

Yes people were there before Israel was created by the UN in 1948 and most were not Jews.

[NativeBob]

this is not even funny: send war-craziest mongrel to settle truce between two nations.

before americans got involved there were no issues between them. kids went to Gaza markets, no checkpoints and sudden explosions. All <deleted> went loose after Oslo. Next was that soviet student Arafat, donations from both sides supporters and this is what they got now.

But Blinken? Even Kushner looked more legit, and that was really entertaining [his peace plan].

[placeholder]

On 1/31/2023 at 8:42 PM, Cory1848 said:

Well, not always. I have many good friends in the US who are themselves Jewish and who are both appalled and saddened by Israeli policies. Plenty of people are capable of looking at the situation with open eyes. What might be antisemitic, however, is holding Israel to a higher standard -- being laser-focused on mistakes made by Israel while not giving a hoot about worse mistakes made by other governments. In the end, Israel is just another country, and like other countries it often behaves badly.

The thing is, that most, if not all, of those other offending countries don't enjoy the same level of support from the United States as does Israel.

[GypsyT]

"4000 years ago Abraham moved to the land of Israel from Iraq and he had some Children there and his Grandsons were the 12 tribes of Israel  , all born in Israel 4000 odd years ago"

If you believe that you believe this too;

“Abraham dies at the age of 175 and is buried next to Sarah in the cave of Machpelah.”

 

And he died as teen age youngster ????

“Methusela; He had the longest lifespan of all those given in the Bible, having died at the age 969.”

It's on the Bible so it MUST be true.....

 

 

[Jingthing]

It's not necessary to believe in the old testament to support Zionism. The origins of Zionism are political not religious. It was a very rational and very necessary response to the fact that the Jewish people had been persecuted for thousands of years in the diaspora so the solution was seeking the power of a nation state in a Jewish homeland. Yes it didn't need to be where it is to meet that goal.. It could have been in Uganda, Arizona, or some other place. But it is in Israel and being in the ancient homeland of the Jewish people brings with it pros and cons. 

Edited February 4, 2023 by Jingthing