Nigel Farage: ‘Brexit has failed’

[RayC]

58 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

You are once again concentrating on the small group of fruit pickers , there were millions of others doing different jobs.

   The six million E.U citizens living and working in the U.K were NOT all picking strawberries in the summer  .

You're right, they weren't.

 

However, the Agricultural and Hospitality sectors are where there are major shortages of labour so it seems natural to focus on these sectors. These shortages are at least partially, due to the elimination of freedom of movement for EU workers 

 

58 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

  Unskilled E.U workers were keeping the wages down .

In certain industries that is almost certainly true. However, that begs the question is wage inflation a good thing?

 

In any event, if the government felt that wages were too low in certain industries, it could have introduced minimum wage regulation.

 

58 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

They can apply for visas now and work in the UK whilst documented and do jobs when they are available 

They could but the paperwork and costs involved, plus the fact that most of these jobs are short fixed-term contracts with the visa limited to this timeframe, means that relatively low paid jobs such as fruit picking and hospitality type work are now pretty unattractive, especially when there are +/-30 countries (EU + EEA countries) where they can work hassle-free.

[Mac Mickmanus]

8 minutes ago, RayC said:

In certain industries that is almost certainly true. However, that begs the question is wage inflation a good thing?

Another example of were the Left and Right have swapped sides .

  Myself a Right winger in favour of the poorer people getting a decent living wage and Employers treated them decently instead of exploiting the poor .

   Maybe I should swap my Red MAGA hat for a Red Star hat ?

*Power to the people* 

[Chomper Higgot]

1 hour ago, youreavinalaff said:

The current unemployment rate in UK is 3.8%. That's quite a lot of people.

How many are fit for work?

[Chomper Higgot]

1 hour ago, youreavinalaff said:

That's a good point. I have been told by many colleagues, mainly Polish and Romanian, it was not that difficult to stay after Brexit so long as documents were in order. Such documents included tax and NI payment history.

 

It seems many workers left not because they wanted to but because they had to.

Many of the EU workers in the UK were seasonal, coming to work on farms in the summer and harvesting periods, then returning home.

 

Adding bureaucracy to their journey discourages them coming, end result crops rotting in fields and shortages of fresh foods in markets, shops and supermarkets.

 

A Brexit failure right there.

[Mac Mickmanus]

If only the U.K Government would provide a working visa for seasonal agricultural work where Europeans could apply for a visa to pick fruit in the U.K ......................

   Hang about, they already have done that 

 

 

https://www.gov.uk/seasonal-worker-visa

 

   seasonal worker visa :

 

 

Overview

You can apply for a Seasonal Worker visa to come to the UK and work in:

• horticulture for up to 6 months - for example, picking fruit and vegetables or flowers
•  

[RayC]

1 hour ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

It was very easy for E.U citizens to say in the U.K after Brexit , six million managed to register online  and get long term permission to stay post Brexit . 

  Those working cash in hand and not paying taxes found it difficult to stay . 

Once again, I agree.

 

But that's not really the point. We are talking about the situation today. As I said in another post, it is now more complicated, time consuming and expensive for EU nationals - who don't have residency - to work in the UK.

[youreavinalaff]

7 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Many of the EU workers in the UK were seasonal, coming to work on farms in the summer and harvesting periods, then returning home.

 

Adding bureaucracy to their journey discourages them coming, end result crops rotting in fields and shortages of fresh foods in markets, shops and supermarkets.

 

A Brexit failure right there.

I know many many EU workers who dodon'work in a seasonal job, have been in UK for many years, paid tax and therefore did not meet with the bureaucracy you speak of.

 

Let's face it, compared to many EU countries, salaries and working conditions are far superior in UK. Why would prople leave if they didn't have to? As asked of me by colleagues from Romania.

[vinny41]

7 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Many of the EU workers in the UK were seasonal, coming to work on farms in the summer and harvesting periods, then returning home.

 

Adding bureaucracy to their journey discourages them coming, end result crops rotting in fields and shortages of fresh foods in markets, shops and supermarkets.

 

A Brexit failure right there.

The EU has been suffering from shortage of seasonal workers for years now

Germany imposed  €12 hourly minimum wage German farmers want that hourly wage to be suspended and implemented in stages ( no doubt over a number of years)

https://www.euractiv.com/topics/seasonal-workers/?type_filter=news

[vinny41]

The  European Trade Union Institute published a report which states

Those sectors in which labour shortages increased the most from 2019 to 2022 tended to offer generally poorer working conditions. 

Labour shortages clearly increased more among jobs with relatively lower pay, even when comparing otherwise similar workers.

https://www.etuc.org/en/pressrelease/study-low-pay-causing-labour-shortages

 

No different from British Business that offers low wages with poor working conditions

Personally I think its a result of Brexit all the UK nationals being prevented from working in the EU on a seasonal basis

Edited May 22, 2023 by vinny41
add

[Chomper Higgot]

14 minutes ago, youreavinalaff said:

I know many many EU workers who dodon'work in a seasonal job, have been in UK for many years, paid tax and therefore did not meet with the bureaucracy you speak of.

 

Let's face it, compared to many EU countries, salaries and working conditions are far superior in UK. Why would prople leave if they didn't have to? As asked of me by colleagues from Romania.

Most of the EU workers in the UK I personally know are design engineers earning well over £100K per year.

 

But it’s a few dozen individuals with permanent jobs in the UK and hence not moving to and from the EU, to these people the extra bureaucracy is a minor issue.

 

But for workers in the vitally important farming and food production industries, their work is seasonal, better paid than in Eastern Europe but not that much better paid than in German, the Netherlands, Italy or Spain.

 

For these vital seasonal farming and food industry workers, the additional bureaucracy is a burden, they have responded by staying away.

 

Hence labour shortages in farming and food production, hence crops rotting in fields or simply not being planted, hence food shortages in markets, shops and supermarkets.

 

A Brexit failure right there.

 

 

Edited May 22, 2023 by Chomper Higgot

[Chomper Higgot]

8 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

The EU has been suffering from shortage of seasonal workers for years now

Germany imposed  €12 hourly minimum wage German farmers want that hourly wage to be suspended and implemented in stages ( no doubt over a number of years)

https://www.euractiv.com/topics/seasonal-workers/?type_filter=news

Yes, precisely.

 

The viral seasonal workers that were coming to the UK can easily go elsewhere, and they have done.

 

A Brexit failure right there.

[Mac Mickmanus]

12 minutes ago, youreavinalaff said:

I know many many EU workers who dodon'work in a seasonal job, have been in UK for many years, paid tax and therefore did not meet with the bureaucracy you speak of.

 

Let's face it, compared to many EU countries, salaries and working conditions are far superior in UK. Why would prople leave if they didn't have to? As asked of me by colleagues from Romania.

The U.K can get cheaper labour from the Third world .

Indians will work for much less than Polish guys and in hasher conditions .

   Why concentrate on Europeans , when we can get Asians to work for less ?

[Chomper Higgot]

1 minute ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

The U.K can get cheaper labour from the Third world .

Indians will work for much less than Polish guys and in hasher conditions .

   Why concentrate on Europeans , when we can get Asians to work for less ?

Well there goes the Brexit is getting rid of cheap workers under cutting British workers argument.

[vinny41]

2 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Yes, precisely.

 

The viral seasonal workers that were coming to the UK can easily go elsewhere, and they have done.

 

A Brexit failure right there.

According to this report they are not going to Germany or Austria

“In the case of seasonal workers, there is currently considerable uncertainty about the availability of harvest workers from Eastern Europe this summer,”

Farms in Austria are also afraid of bottlenecks. According to media reports, many farms are now recruiting workers from Asian countries such as Vietnam.

https://www.euractiv.com/section/agriculture-food/news/germany-fears-seasonal-labour-shortages-as-ukraine-war-rages-on/

[RayC]

12 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

If only the U.K Government would provide a working visa for seasonal agricultural work where Europeans could apply for a visa to pick fruit in the U.K ......................

   Hang about, they already have done that 

 

 

https://www.gov.uk/seasonal-worker-visa

 

   seasonal worker visa :

 

 

Overview

You can apply for a Seasonal Worker visa to come to the UK and work in:

• horticulture for up to 6 months - for example, picking fruit and vegetables or flowers
•  

Somewhere in an EU state in Eastern Europe:

 

- "Right, so that's me off to the UK to work"

- "Got your visa?"

- "No. Don't need one.....There's a shortage of fruit pickers and bar staff, so I should be able to pick up work easily enough. I can move from job-to-job if necessary. I'll give it a month. If it doesn't work out, I'll be back"

- "Err ... The UK left the EU. You need a visa now, mate. You need to find a sponsor in the UK; fill out an application form, have £1200 in savings. The application will cost you £259 (non refundable). You may need to go to an application centre to have an interview and have your fingerprints taken (closest one to here is 100km away). Best allow yourself a couple of months for the process. No guarantee that your application will be approved.

- Do what? I want to work in a bar or the fields, not try to become an astronaut! Sod that, I'll try France instead.

 

[Chomper Higgot]

5 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

According to this report they are not going to Germany or Austria

“In the case of seasonal workers, there is currently considerable uncertainty about the availability of harvest workers from Eastern Europe this summer,”

Farms in Austria are also afraid of bottlenecks. According to media reports, many farms are now recruiting workers from Asian countries such as Vietnam.

https://www.euractiv.com/section/agriculture-food/news/germany-fears-seasonal-labour-shortages-as-ukraine-war-rages-on/

Well they’re not coming to the UK are they?!

 

Incidentally, the report you linked concerns Ukrainian seasonal workers to Germany. Not EU seasonal workers.

 

 

Edited May 22, 2023 by Chomper Higgot

[vinny41]

6 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Well they’re not coming to the UK are they?!

They are no longer working in terrible conditions for a pittance they have found that in Eastern Europe wages have significantly increased in their home countries that they have changed their work to something that offers similar pay to what they were receiving in the UK after deductions and a improved working environment

[youreavinalaff]

19 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Most of the EU workers in the UK I personally know are design engineers earning well over £100K per year.

 

But it’s a few dozen individuals with permanent jobs in the UK and hence not moving to and from the EU, to these people the extra bureaucracy is a minor issue.

 

But for workers in the vitally important farming and food production industries, their work is seasonal, better paid than in Eastern Europe but not that much better paid than in German, the Netherlands, Italy or Spain.

 

For these vital seasonal farming and food industry workers, the additional bureaucracy is a burden, they have responded by staying away.

 

Hence labour shortages in farming and food production, hence crops rotting in fields or simply not being planted, hence food shortages in markets, shops and supermarkets.

 

A Brexit failure right there.

 

 

You clearly did not read my post. If you did, you selected bits you liked and fitted with your criteria.

[RayC]

1 hour ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Another example of were the Left and Right have swapped sides .

  Myself a Right winger in favour of the poorer people getting a decent living wage and Employers treated them decently instead of exploiting the poor .

   Maybe I should swap my Red MAGA hat for a Red Star hat ?

*Power to the people* 

Glad to have you on board, comrade✊

 

EU Employment legislation largely ensures that workers aren't exploited by unscrupulous employers, but a sizeable proportion of our governing party seem keen on repealing these laws.

 

I'm all in favour of people getting a liveable wage. Maybe the UK government could fix minimum wages at a suitable level! 

[RayC]

37 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

The U.K can get cheaper labour from the Third world .

Indians will work for much less than Polish guys and in hasher conditions .

   Why concentrate on Europeans , when we can get Asians to work for less ?

That didn't take long. Five minutes ago you were the reincarnation of Marx, now you're a 19th century American slave owner!

[vinny41]

36 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Well they’re not coming to the UK are they?!

 

Incidentally, the report you linked concerns Ukrainian seasonal workers to Germany. Not EU seasonal workers.

 

 

Report that I linked clearly stated 

Germany employs a large percentage of foreign seasonal workers on a short-term basis for seasonal crops like asparagus and strawberries.

“Foreign workers who take up seasonal employment in agriculture currently come mainly from EU member states, predominantly Poland and Romania,” the spokesperson said.

https://www.euractiv.com/section/agriculture-food/news/germany-fears-seasonal-labour-shortages-as-ukraine-war-rages-on/

[Chomper Higgot]

42 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

They are no longer working in terrible conditions for a pittance they have found that in Eastern Europe wages have significantly increased in their home countries that they have changed their work to something that offers similar pay to what they were receiving in the UK after deductions and a improved working environment

And you know this how?

 

Oh, you made it up.

[Chomper Higgot]

42 minutes ago, youreavinalaff said:

You clearly did not read my post. If you did, you selected bits you liked and fitted with your criteria.

I have a different experience than you, and I’m in a part of the UK that is directly impacted by the lack of seasonal workers from the EU.

 

 

[Mac Mickmanus]

28 minutes ago, RayC said:

That didn't take long. Five minutes ago you were the reincarnation of Marx, now you're a 19th century American slave owner!

A bit or sarcasm from me there about you seemingly agreeing with exploitation of poor workers , tongue in cheek may be the better descriptive word 

[vinny41]

16 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

And you know this how?

 

Oh, you made it up.

Its called an opinion

ETUC General Secretary Esther Lynch said:

“Employers can’t find enough workers because they’re not offering good enough wages or working conditions. As Joe Biden said, the answer is simple: pay them more.

https://www.etuc.org/en/pressrelease/study-low-pay-causing-labour-shortages

 

Labour shortages – turning away from bad jobs

https://www.etui.org/publications/labour-shortages-turning-away-bad-jobs

[youreavinalaff]

24 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

I have a different experience than you, and I’m in a part of the UK that is directly impacted by the lack of seasonal workers from the EU.

 

 

That's nice. However, it still appears you did not read my post.

[Chomper Higgot]

1 hour ago, youreavinalaff said:

That's nice. However, it still appears you did not read my post.

Clearly I did.

 

I addressed EU workers earning good wages in the UK who are very little impacted by post Brexit bureaucracy and added seasonal  EU workers who are very much impacted by the post EU bureaucracy.

 

I’m sorry if I my response was too complex for you to grasp.

[youreavinalaff]

21 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Clearly I did.

 

I addressed EU workers earning good wages in the UK who are very little impacted by post Brexit bureaucracy and added seasonal  EU workers who are very much impacted by the post EU bureaucracy.

 

I’m sorry if I my response was too complex for you to grasp.

Complex? That's funny.

 

You missed out the most important and relevant part. Never mind. Keep your blinkers on if it suits you.

[pegman]

Nigel will receive major confirmation of his statement once the rest of the E.U.'s financial services industry leaves London for the continent.

 

 

https://www.politico.eu/article/britains-economic-self-harm-gives-eu-excuse-to-snatch-more-financial-control/

 

 

 

Edited May 22, 2023 by pegman

[nauseus]

9 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Nah, it was a failure from the start.

 

Removing the UK from the world’s largest integrated free trade zone was always going to fail, and as Farage points out, it has failed.

I would rather say that it was sabotaged from the start.