Some Imm Offices refusing to do the 'change of Visa process' (applying for 90-day Non Imm O Visa from a VisaExempt entry)

[Red Phoenix]

On May 17, an AN member started this thread

https://aseannow.com/topic/1295080-applying-for-non-o-visa-retirement-at-mae-sai-immigration-office/

the problem being that his CHIANG-RAI Imm Office told him that they would not accept his application for a 90-day Non Imm O Visa (retirement) when he would do a border-run and return VisaExempt.  And they told him to apply at the Thai Embassy in Vientiane, Laos (800 kms from where he lives).

And yesterday another AN member encountered same at ROI-ET Imm office.  The member did a border-run and was refused a a 90-day Non Imm O Visa (retirement) after his VisaExempt return, and also was told to apply at the Thai Embassy in Vientiane, Laos.

https://aseannow.com/topic/1295448-chong-chom-border-bounce/?do=findComment&comment=18121355

NOTE: Since he posted it as a follow-up to an earlier border-bounce topic he opened, the title of the thread where he posted it does not relate to that Visa application denial, and hence I will post it below. 

>> Are these just 'rogue' offices or is there a 'new rule' at play in these offices?

Edited June 4, 2023 by Red Phoenix

[Red Phoenix]

Here the post with his experience at the ROI-ET Imm Office

@supermac wrote:

Next went to local IO 3 days later with all documents in place or so I thought, The farang before me asked  office supervisor if he could get a visa there and he was told yes just bring the relevant documents which he wrote out for him no mention of home photos or visit, I am not sure which visa was requested but the list related to a non O based on retirement I went next with all my documents for Non O based on retirement same guy he checked the docs then checked my passport shook his head and said go Laos you have no problems with these document's in Laos. if you want visa here big problems have to provide photos of home with woman and we need t.o do home visit visa take 2 months.Go LAOS?

Thanks very much IO for the help so later ime off to LAOS.

Edited June 4, 2023 by Red Phoenix

[Jingthing]

I've been trying to tell people that immigration offices do have the right to refuse to do these.

But people still don't believe me. 

 

[KhunLA]

10 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

Here the post with his experience at the ROI-ET Imm Office

@supermac wrote:

Next went to local IO 3 days later with all documents in place or so I thought, The farang before me asked  office supervisor if he could get a visa there and he was told yes just bring the relevant documents which he wrote out for him no mention of home photos or visit, I am not sure which visa was requested but the list related to a non O based on retirement I went next with all my documents for Non O based on retirement same guy he checked the docs then checked my passport shook his head and said go Laos you have no problems with these document's in Laos. if you want visa here big problems have to provide photos of home with woman and we need t.o do home visit visa take 2 months.Go LAOS?

Thanks very much IO for the help so later ime off to LAOS.

Seems obvious, there was some kind of miscommunication, as photos are only needed for marriage visa, not retirement visa.

[Red Phoenix]

8 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

The ROI-ET Imm officer told the applicant:

If you want visa here big problems have to provide photos of home with woman and we need to do home visit visa take 2 months

That was for a 90-day Non Imm O Visa for reason of RETIREMENT. 

A friend of mine after having 'killed' his Non Imm O-A Visa based Permit to stay by doing a border-run and returning VisaExempt < just like the 2 members quoted higher > did apply last week for his 90-day Non Imm O Visa (retirement) at the SriRacha (Chonburi) Imm Office and was successful in doing so.

But interestingly, the SriRacha Imm Officer also wanted pictures of him at the house of his girlfriend where he is staying, and pictures of him in the living room and bed-room. 

And on top of that the SriRacha kept his Passport, which he would only be able to get hold of again after the Divisional approval of his application.  So he will be 2-4 weeks without his Passport!  Is this even legal for Imm Offices to keep your Passport?

 

[Red Phoenix]

Just now, KhunLA said:

Seems obvious, there was some kind of miscommunication, as photos are only needed for marriage visa, not retirement visa.

Yes, I thought so too, but see my post just above this one, where last week the SriRacha Imm Officer ALSO required house photos for a 90-day Non Imm O Visa (retirement) application.

[KhunLA]

4 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

That was for a 90-day Non Imm O Visa for reason of RETIREMENT. 

A friend of mine after having 'killed' his Non Imm O-A Visa based Permit to stay by doing a border-run and returning VisaExempt < just like the 2 members quoted higher > did apply last week for his 90-day Non Imm O Visa (retirement) at the SriRacha (Chonburi) Imm Office and was successful in doing so.

But interestingly, the SriRacha Imm Officer also wanted pictures of him at the house of his girlfriend where he is staying, and pictures of him in the living room and bed-room. 

And on top of that the SriRacha kept his Passport, which he would only be able to get hold of again after the Divisional approval of his application.  So he will be 2-4 weeks without his Passport!  Is this even legal for Imm Offices to keep your Passport?

 

Apparently one needs to choose living in certain provinces for ease of visa approval ... oh well.

 

Guess I've been lucky, as no silliness asked of me.

 

You type faster than me ????

Edited June 4, 2023 by KhunLA

[Caldera]

21 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

I've been trying to tell people that immigration offices do have the right to refuse to do these.

But people still don't believe me. 

Because it's nonsense and you have presented nothing to back up your claim.

 

Official forms, official procedures. Some offices deviate, same as with extensions. 

[Jingthing]

3 minutes ago, Caldera said:

Because it's nonsense and you have presented nothing to back up your claim.

 

Official forms, official procedures. Some offices deviate, same as with extensions. 

The proof is in the pudding, my dear, when you see offices refusing to do these.

Do you think there is something that will force them?

Edited June 4, 2023 by Jingthing

[sandyf]

4 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

The proof is in the pudding, my dear, when you see offices refusing to do these.

Do you think there is something that will force them?

Indeed. If people do not want to enter the country with an appropriate visa then they must accept the consequences of that decision rather than whinging about it.

Isn't it time Thailand started to follow international convention.

[Jingthing]

2 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Indeed. If people do not want to enter the country with an appropriate visa then they must accept the consequences of that decision rather than whinging about it.

Isn't it time Thailand started to follow international convention.

I am not making a moralistic argument.

It's great when they will do this service which apparently will be most of time at most offices.

They obviously CAN do the service.

I am just saying they really aren't obligated to and if they refuse I don't think there is anything you can do about it.

[ChaiyaTH]

Phangan also never allowed 60 day extensions based on child for non-o purposes, to then be able and extend to a year. They said I would need to get a non-o single entry visa for that first. This while I did it in Chiang Mai for at least 4-5 times.

[ChaiyaTH]

25 minutes ago, Caldera said:

Because it's nonsense and you have presented nothing to back up your claim.

 

Official forms, official procedures. Some offices deviate, same as with extensions. 

Yeah dream on, if certain offices say no, that means the answer is no. To challenge that is both naive and risky.

Edited June 4, 2023 by ChaiyaTH

[sandyf]

4 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

I am not making a moralistic argument.

It's great when they will do this service which apparently will be most of time at most offices.

They obviously CAN do the service.

I am just saying they really aren't obligated to and if they refuse I don't think there is anything you can do about it.

Nothing moralistic about it.

Only hypocrites want Thailand to conform to international convention, when it suits.

[foreverlomsak]

38 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

But interestingly, the SriRacha Imm Officer also wanted pictures of him at the house of his girlfriend where he is staying, and pictures of him in the living room and bed-room. 

And on top of that the SriRacha kept his Passport, which he would only be able to get hold of again after the Divisional approval of his application.  So he will be 2-4 weeks without his Passport!  Is this even legal for Imm Offices to keep your Passport?

What would happen if he didn't have a girlfriend, just grab the nearest girl for photo's.

I seriously doubt if they can legally deprive him of his passport, what would happen if he was stopped in the street and was unable produce the original in a reasonable amount of time, and indeed if he required to for another purpose like proof of ID at a bank, etc.

[VocalNeal]

In the instances above both parties want a retirement visa or extension of stay based on retirement. Is this correct? 

They enter Thailand visa exempt? Correct? 

So they don't or won't have a visa? Correct?

I believe visas are issued outside countries, all over the world not just Thailand?

 

So if they don't have a visa how can they get an extension based on retirement? Don't they have to leave the country get a visa then comeback and apply for an extension based on retirement. I am sure there is a procedure for that which any Thai consulate outside the country can explain.  

[Jingthing]

3 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Nothing moralistic about it.

Only hypocrites want Thailand to conform to international convention, when it suits.

I guess I'm saying I feel sorry for expats that expect this service to be done and then discover that they won't do it. I don't blame them for expecting it. It would be a reasonable enough expectation but unfortunately the reality is that people's expectations in this case won't always be realized.

They may say no. They can say no. So for people that learn this, be prepared for that.

Edited June 4, 2023 by Jingthing

[Pink Mist]

An off-topic flame post has been removed.  The OP is not about Third World countries, hospital access, or loosing 15 million buying a condo.

 

The OP is:

 

Some Imm Offices refusing to do the 'change of Visa process' (applying for 90-day Non Imm O Visa from a VisaExempt entry)

[Red Phoenix]

1 minute ago, VocalNeal said:

In the instances above both parties want a retirement visa or extension of stay based on retirement. Is this correct? 

They enter Thailand visa exempt? Correct? 

So they don't or won't have a visa? Correct?

I believe visas are issued outside countries, all over the world not just Thailand?

 

So if they don't have a visa how can they get an extension based on retirement? Don't they have to leave the country get a visa then comeback and apply for an extension based on retirement. I am sure there is a procedure for that which any Thai consulate outside the country can explain.  

All 3 of them were applying at their local Imm Office for a 90-day Non Imm O Visa for reason of retirement.  The official 'change of Visa' process allows you to do this when having entered VisaExempt or on a 60-day Tourist Visa. 

Thousands of people have done this (including myself) without any problems.  

 

 

[Andrew Dwyer]

16 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Indeed. If people do not want to enter the country with an appropriate visa then they must accept the consequences of that decision rather than whinging about it.

Isn't it time Thailand started to follow international convention.

You seem to be missing the point, the procedure is in place for entry via visa exempt or tourist visa and applying for a non immigrant O visa ( based on retirement or marriage ) , see TM 86 and TM87 . Many have successfully made this transition why should others be unable to due to the whim of the Immigration Officer.

 

Let me guess, you applied for a non imm O visa outside the country and seem to take satisfaction when others, using an alternative equally legal method, are being denied.

[foreverlomsak]

48 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Apparently one needs to choose living in certain provinces for ease of visa approval ... oh well.

 

Guess I've been lucky, as no silliness asked of me.

The common thread to these 3 is doing a border bounce to get the Visa Exempt and not coming in by air, just saying maybe 

[VocalNeal]

48 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

And on top of that the SriRacha kept his Passport, which he would only be able to get hold of again after the Divisional approval of his application.  So he will be 2-4 weeks without his Passport!  Is this even legal for Imm Offices to keep your Passport?

This is normal for me when extending my stay based on marriage. Also all the pictures etc.

 

I had to have pictures every year, for 13 years, when I part-owned/ran a business. Not bedroom and living room. Outside the premises with staff and inside the premises with staff and showing my desk.  I considered this just just one of the "costs" of doing business.

 

I wonder in the cases of Mae Sai and Roi-Et above whether the use of an agent would have ameliorated the procedure. 

[DrJack54]

6 minutes ago, VocalNeal said:

So if they don't have a visa how can they get an extension based on retirement?

Immigration allows "conversion" from tourist visa or visa exempt to a non O based on retirement or marriage..

From tourist visa use TM86 and from visa exempt use TM87.

 

This thread is highlighting the few immigration offices that make up their own rules. 

 

Another example is Jomtien where they are insisting of funds seasoned for two months for the conversion to Non O when of course the funds only need to be in bank on day of application. 

 

Fortunately these rubbish offices are very small number out of ~ 75.

 

 

[Red Phoenix]

1 minute ago, foreverlomsak said:

The common thread to these 3 is doing a border bounce to get the Visa Exempt and not coming in by air, just saying maybe 

True all did land-border VisaExempt entries, but the Chiang-Rai and Roi-Et applications were denied and the SriRacha one was succesful.

[Red Phoenix]

2 minutes ago, VocalNeal said:

This is normal for me when extending my stay based on marriage. Also all the pictures etc.

 

I had to have pictures every year, for 13 years, when I part-owned/ran a business. Not bedroom and living room. Outside the premises with staff and inside the premises with staff and showing my desk.  I considered this just just one of the "costs" of doing business.

 

I wonder in the cases of Mae Sai and Roi-Et above whether the use of an agent would have ameliorated the procedure. 

Requiring pictures outside-inside the house is common for a Marriage Visa or Marriage extension application, but it is certainly not normal for a 90-day Non Imm O Visa (retirement) application.  

[VocalNeal]

23 minutes ago, Andrew Dwyer said:

You seem to be missing the point, the procedure is in place for entry via visa exempt or tourist visa and applying for a non immigrant O visa ( based on retirement or marriage ) , see TM 86 and TM87 .

What I am not getting is how one can change a visa TM.86 when they don't actually have a visa to change, because they were not issued one from an overseas consulate.

 

Maybe we have all forgotten the old adage "At the discretion of the immigration officer".

Edited June 4, 2023 by VocalNeal

[Andrew Dwyer]

7 minutes ago, VocalNeal said:

What I am not getting is how one can change a visa TM.86 when they don't actually have a visa to change, because they were not issued one from an overseas consulate.

 

Maybe we have all forgotten the old adage "At the discretion of the immigration officer".

Certainly at the discretion of the immigration officer seems to apply here but, and I believe this is the gist of this thread, should it ?

[DrJack54]

5 minutes ago, VocalNeal said:

What I am not getting is how one can change a visa TM.86 when they don't actually have a visa to change, because they were not issued one from an overseas. 

consulate.

 

Maybe we have all forgotten the old adage "At the discretion of the immigration officer".

There are MANY threads outlining procedure to "kill off" the  Non O-A and obtain a Non O based on retirement.

In summary the way to do this is to exit Thailand and obtain a non O in nearby consulate 

OR.....

Exit Thailand without reentry permit and reenter visa exempt.

Subsequently with TM87 and required other docs the main one being funds in the bank obtain a non O. 

 

This has been common place since the introduction of insurance requirements. 

 

The visa exempt entry can be done via land borders and air. 

[Red Phoenix]

12 minutes ago, VocalNeal said:

What I am not getting is how one can change a visa TM.86 when they don't actually have a visa to change, because they were not issued one from an overseas consulate.

A VisaExempt entry - which provides you with a 30-day Permit to stay on entry - is regarded and handled by Immigration as a kind of Tourist Visa.  And both a VisaExempt entry as well as a 60-day Tourist Visa allow you to apply for the 90-day Non Imm O Visa at a local Imm Office.

[Andrew Dwyer]

I killed my OA extension by taking a short trip to my home country and returned visa exempt, later applied for a non imm O visa based on retirement and a subsequent retirement extension.

All successfully completed but had a home visit with photos of myself in front of the house number, sitting in the lounge and on my bed, I also received an under consideration stamp ( for retirement ) until my O visa expired and my extension granted.

A little unusual, the last paragraph, and annoying but with a successful outcome.

Now, a friend in exactly the same situation followed exactly the same route some 2 weeks after me. He had no home visit or under consideration stamp, a different immigration office.

 The only difference being my immigration office is 10 minutes away, his is 1 hour . 
Could this be the reason for different processes of the exact same situation  ?? or one of the IO’s not following procedure .

Edited June 4, 2023 by Andrew Dwyer