Who is responsible for the balcony railing on a condo?

[bilbo52]

At my condo many of the balcony railings on individual units are rotten and broken. We do not have a committee and I am uncertain who the Juristic person. The building is owned by a rich Thai family who upon building completion 15 years ago sold approximately half of the 75 units to mostly foreign purchasers.

 

My question is, based on similar experience, who pays for the repair or replacement of the balcony railings in this case? All owners pay a yearly mintenance charge for upkeep of common areas, pool, gym and garden.

 

Thanks in advance 

[Elkski]

Should be the condo association which means you!  But getting all to agree to fix un needed railing?   From what I've seen in Thailand the metal installed onsite may look ok but no thought on cleaning, prep, primer and proper paint is included. 

[NoDisplayName]

You bought the condo?  You own it?

The railing in question is on the balcony in your unit, NOT a common area?

 

Seems that should be your responsibility.

 

[matchar]

Are you in Pattaya by any chance?

Saltwater corrosion can be dangerous in older buildings.

 

If it's your balcony I guess it's your responsibility.

[swm59nj]

The balcony is usually a common element.  But that should be in the bylaws if so. 
But the issue is.  You have no committee, condo board.  And no Juristic person.  

[scubascuba3]

9 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

You bought the condo?  You own it?

The railing in question is on the balcony in your unit, NOT a common area?

 

Seems that should be your responsibility.

 

Usually it's common area, otherwise muppets build on it and change it.

 

Op needs a committee, you must have a juristic person already. Probably at AGM they need to raise supplementary funds to pay for all railings to be fixed.

 

I wouldn't buy a condo with so few units

Edited June 23, 2023 by scubascuba3

[kennw]

10 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

You bought the condo?  You own it?

The railing in question is on the balcony in your unit, NOT a common area?

 

Seems that should be your responsibility.

 

You have several problems by the sound of it. Get a copy of the Condominium Law this will allow you to see where your place in failing. Re the railing, the condominium law does not allow you to change the external appearance of your unit. Many do but have to revert back to original before the unit can be sold

[Peterw42]

The outside of the building, including balcony rail is common property and the juristic responsibility. Ignore the experts advising otherwise.

If the building is a condo block, its not owned by a rich Thai family, its jointly owned by the individual condo owners. The person you are paying the yearly fees to is the condo juristic,  speak to them about bringing up repairs to balcony rail at the next AGM.

Edited June 23, 2023 by Peterw42

[kcpattaya]

11 hours ago, bilbo52 said:

who pays for the repair or replacement

Why are you wasting your time here??? Just fix the bloody railing if you feel unsafe... Jesus

[scubascuba3]

37 minutes ago, kennw said:

the condominium law does not allow you to change the external appearance of your unit. Many do but have to revert back to original before the unit can be sold

Is that common? certainly a good idea

[brianthainess]

2 hours ago, kcpattaya said:

Why are you wasting your time here??? Just fix the bloody railing if you feel unsafe... Jesus

And then hand in the bill with your service charge.

Have you even asked or informed 'them' of the problem?

I would write & date it. 

[LukKrueng]

4 hours ago, swm59nj said:

The balcony is usually a common element.  But that should be in the bylaws if so. 
But the issue is.  You have no committee, condo board.  And no Juristic person.  

A juridical person is a human legal person that is not a single natural person but an organization recognized by law as a fictitious person such as a corporation, government agency, non-governmental organisation, or international organization (such as the United Nations). Other terms include artificial person, corporate person, judicial person, juridical entity, juridic person, or juristic person. A juridical person maintains certain duties and rights as enumerated under relevant laws.[1][2] The rights and responsibilities of a juridical person are distinct from those of the natural persons constituting it. 

If the building is registered as a condominium it is a juristic person. If you register a company - the company becomes a juristic person.

On this case of the op they might not have an elected committee as the developer sold only half the units and therefore he still owns half the building and has 50% of the votes, so basically can run the building as he sees fit. 

[ChipButty]

I'm afraid maintenance is not high on the agenda with Thais, if you want something doing do it yourself, 

[patman30]

2 hours ago, kcpattaya said:

Why are you wasting your time here??? Just fix the bloody railing if you feel unsafe... Jesus

Exactly this.
It baffles me when people want to squabble over pennies instead of just getting the job done
especially when it is a safety concern.

[Dan O]

Your getting a variety if conflicting info here.

 

You need to establish who the juristic entity is and get a copy of the Condo docs\regulations. You should also have a board of directors to hold meetings and interface with the juristic entity. Those docs should spell out what you own and are responsible for. Condos generally it's interior wall to wall and ceiling to floor with all exterior envelope owned and funded by the master condo entity from your HOA fees. It should also spell out what are considered common areas, what are considered restricted use common areas (typically balcony's, terraces or patios) as well as having proper financial budgets set for monthly operating contract expenses and repairs, a annual capital expense budget for common area maintenance and upkeep and a reserve capital plan and budget for long term maintenance, typically a 25 year plan. My guess is your building like most here has next to none of those and is a financial disaster waiting to happen. 

 

 

[thailand49]

It is attached to the exterior of the building therefore even in Thailand it is the project responsibility which is basically the owner or you.

My concern here in Thailand also based on your comments that 75% is owned by foreigners, then you noted this condition to be all over the building, then there is no board.  So who is watching the store!  These conditions exist because like most condo, no one participates noted everyone pays the yearly fee?  but who is watching the store most places I've been involved while seeking to buy in the past for investment they don't want to show me the books let alone allow me to translated the rules. Those who allowed I can quickly see majority of the Thais aren't paying the share the ones usually are the foreigners but as I noted majority don't participate so they never know and usually there isn't wording in the rules to force collecting. Then of course you got weak management who don't want confrontation so they let it go especially when they are Thai.

 

Personally, I would ask management first if they hesitate that is a major clue because the problem isn't just your unit from what you are stated if research shows there isn't enough money to cover the renovations that it comes out of your pocket but if they can't collect the fees from everyone good luck with getting funds to fix the problem overall.

 

As noted by another poster meantime I would find a good contractor and get an estimate how to do it right for your unit and personal safety instead of holding your breath?  Keep the receipts just in case. When I was looking for investment I stay away from larger units regardless of the flash unless I can review all the documents and attend a meeting. I spend more times walking around the complex than actually inside looking for upkeep etc..

[Mikkihiiri]

The balcony rail belongs to the Unit and, as such, is not part of the Common Area.

I was the Chairman in one condo in Pattaya for 12 years. Our Committee obliged all the Units to maintain the balcony rails properly otherwise they were fined for two reasons:

1- safety

2- the external look of the building was affected as the rotten balcony rails were of a different color than the good ones (there is a Condominium Act section saying that Co-Owners are not allowed to modify the external look of the building).

[NoDisplayName]

5 hours ago, kennw said:

You have several problems by the sound of it. Get a copy of the Condominium Law this will allow you to see where your place in failing. Re the railing, the condominium law does not allow you to change the external appearance of your unit. Many do but have to revert back to original before the unit can be sold

That would depend on the bylaws of the condo, if any exist.  I would expect that anything attached to an individual unit is the responsibility of the unit owner.

 

The regulations may state that the exterior must remain in accordance with the building plan, but that simply means the owner can't deviate from the plan.  It says nothing about maintenance of privately owned units.

 

Windows must also adhere to the building aesthetic, but if the owner breaks the glass, who is responsible for replacement?   Same-same with balcony railings.

[scubascuba3]

I just checked my condo house rules, specifies balcony\railings as common area

[Tropposurfer]

I stayed in and older complex on Srisoothorn Rd Surin Beach for about a year before the house, that place was about 17 years old.

 

Half the owners hadn't paid a baht of fees for many years and never came to the place ????????????????.

 

The poor manager was being stiffed by the juristic dude, and of course as top-down social structures do he passed that pressure into the lowly maintenance and shift-work managers and so slowly the place went downhill.

Rotten wooden railings, broken pool tiles, holes in the pool decking timbers ???? that you'd fall right. Railings if you leant against them!, never ever pressure gernie'd the pathways and driveway, garbage areas too small and filthy without enough bins lol????

The driveway was s slippery slide of moss n slime in rainy season lol, ????

All these examples stemmed from two fundamental and common thing poor juristic fee payments and juristic corruption.

 

Setting aside the legal aspects of condo juristic parameters (often none of these matter a penny) ... Why?

Because it so often the case that some or many owners not paying their juristic fees (sadly this usually means the Thai owners are not paying their monthly fees, the falangs usually do, and, the older the complex is the more this becomes the case, and so there simply aren't funds to get things done that contractually should be done, AND the manager is, because of 'face', stuck uncomfortably between the juristic dude, the majority Thai owners, and you) ...

... Ergo you often have low odds in getting financial support for the juristic to mend the balustrade (if it is part of the contractual parameters of same).

 

This issue of folks being totally absent on their juristic fees is common and often not understood by falang folks who buy into condo complex's.

This becomes more and more the common as the building ages.

 

We find out all too late, and to get things done its often just simpler to arrange for your own tradies and let the managers know your doing work, what that is, and sling them a few hundred baht to grease the wheels and alleviate them of any pressure to oversee and 'manage' things.

 

Just wander around and look at the general state of many complex's and you can see the deterioration in and lack of regular 'standard/normal' maintenance. 

 

As long as you replace/repair the balustrade in a way that they appear to match those of other condo's you shouldn't draw the ire of other owners or put the manager in a tough position.

 

As other posters have mentioned use good materials e.g. raise the height of the balustrade to over 1100 mm at the topside of the railing (Aussie standards), over engineer the gauge of any materials you use, especially your retaining bolts (watch the tradies closely to make sure they do this work exactly as should be done), and weatherproof materials properly.

[Delight]

16 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

You bought the condo?  You own it?

The railing in question is on the balcony in your unit, NOT a common area?

 

Seems that should be your responsibility.

 

 I cannot agree with your statement.

As you may be aware there are 2 sizes in relation to every apartment.

The larger area is the space that the apartment occupies. i call this the developer size

The smaller area is detailed on your condominium   title deed(CTD)

 

In relation to my apartment -I calculated the area of the corridor wall ,then the balcony wall and finally that area of the columns .

 

I subtracted the sum of theses numbers from the developer size . The answer was the precisely the area as detailed on the CTD.

 

There I concluded that I do not own the balcony wall -the corridor wall -the columns.

Why

 

If I do not own them -then I cannot remove them.

If my conclusion is correct then the maintenance of the balcony wall plus the railings is the responsibility of the Condominium Juristic Person.

 

[newnative]

9 hours ago, Peterw42 said:

The outside of the building, including balcony rail is common property and the juristic responsibility. Ignore the experts advising otherwise.

If the building is a condo block, its not owned by a rich Thai family, its jointly owned by the individual condo owners. The person you are paying the yearly fees to is the condo juristic,  speak to them about bringing up repairs to balcony rail at the next AGM.

Agree.

[Mikkihiiri]

Obviously, the fastest way to solve the problem of the balcony rail is to do it yourself and avoid long discussions wirt the Juristic Person.

 

But that will not answer the original question, that is: who is responsible for the balcony rail or who owns the balcony rail.

 

If you check the Chanote the balcony is included in it and so the balcony rail comes with it. But that does not mean that you can do whatever you want with your balcony. The balcony should be kept in a way that is not modifing the external look of the building.

 

Obvioysly, it is the joint duty of the Committee and the Juristic Person Manager to enforce the By-Laws and the Thai Laws even taking the offenders to Court. We did it several times in our Condominium and our Juristic Person always won. But it is not easy to find a Committee or a Juristic Person willing to take cases to Court for Co-Owners breaking the Law. It takes time and experience and some headaches, which is something most of the Committees or Juristic Persons are more than happy to avoid closing their eyes on Co-Owners that are not respecting the law.

[Fairynuff]

13 hours ago, scubascuba3 said:

Is that common? certainly a good idea

It’s the law. You technically own it because nobody is allowed access despite it being common area. We were not even allowed to install a ceiling fan on the balcony. 

[Liverpool Lou]

.

Edited June 24, 2023 by Liverpool Lou

[Liverpool Lou]

11 hours ago, LukKrueng said:

A juridical person is...

If the building is registered as a condominium it is a juristic person.

[Liverpool Lou]

9 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

I would expect that anything attached to an individual unit is the responsibility of the unit owner.

Are top floor condo owners responsible for the maintenance of the roof, then?

[scorecard]

15 hours ago, scubascuba3 said:

Usually it's common area, otherwise muppets build on it and change it.

 

Op needs a committee, you must have a juristic person already. Probably at AGM they need to raise supplementary funds to pay for all railings to be fixed.

 

I wouldn't buy a condo with so few units

If there is an AGM. 

[Digitalbanana]

On 6/23/2023 at 8:16 PM, NoDisplayName said:

The railing in question is on the balcony in your unit, NOT a common area?

 

Seems that should be your responsibility.

In our condo the outside walls of our unit along with the balcony walls are part of the main building and responsibility of the community to keep maintained. Several times I have seen the condo building painters covering the outer walls and balcony walls.

[scubascuba3]

7 hours ago, Fairynuff said:

It’s the law. You technically own it because nobody is allowed access despite it being common area. We were not even allowed to install a ceiling fan on the balcony. 

that wasn't the question, it was whether you can't sell unless any changes are removed. Usually office just issues debt free letter, maybe they withhold that